The Running Thread - 2018

[SarahDisney]

Sidenote: I am thinking about thinking about thinking about taking up my friends offer of a short weekend in Jan in WDW. Maybe...thinking about it. A lot of stuff is going on and being weighed. But there are thoughts. Only thoughts. So I will keep you all posted.

*cough*marathon*cough*

 

[KSellers88]

ATTQOTD: I like solids, but have trouble dealing with them during races. (That doesn’t always stop me.) I have used Tailwind for long training runs and used Untapped for my last race. I used to use Gu quite a bit in the past, but can’t stomach it anymore.

It really just depends on my mood. I had a pocketful of Swedish Fish during the marathon this year. I the idea of Starbursts @KSellers88!

The mini ones are the easiest to eat while running.

 

[run.minnie.miles]

Sidenote: I am thinking about thinking about thinking about taking up my friends offer of a short weekend in Jan in WDW. Maybe...thinking about it. A lot of stuff is going on and being weighed. But there are thoughts. Only thoughts. So I will keep you all posted.

You're toying with my emotions right now...

 

[michigandergirl]

Attqotd: I generally like gels (Huma or Honey Stinger), but after mile 16 in a marathon anything goes. Pickles are especially yummy!

 

[Keels]

QOTD: For fueling during your long run or you a "liquids" (think GU) or solids (think the jelly bean fuel) type of person and why?

Gels are the worst - so that's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

I like Tailwind when I'm on my bike. For running, I like ShotBlocks - Mountain Berry, Black Cherry and Margarita are my faves.

Or, in the case of Marathon this year when I forgot all of my fuel (kinda like I thought I forgot to wear socks for the 5K), all of the mini packs of Oreos from my finish line snack boxes weren't a bad substitute ...

 

[PrincessV]

QOTD: For fueling during your long run or you a "liquids" (think GU) or solids (think the jelly bean fuel) type of person and why?

ATTQOTD: Funny - I always think of gels as solids! If we're considering them liquids, I guess I'm all liquid, all the time: gels + Tailwind. Why? They're compact, portable and my body likes them I tried various solids in the past, but pretzels, fig newtons, etc. were a PITA to carry and didn't get glucose into me as quickly as I need.

 

[CDKG]

QOTD: For fueling during your long run or you a "liquids" (think GU) or solids (think the jelly bean fuel) type of person and why?

Unfortunately, gels tend to rip my stomach up. I tried chews, but didn’t like the artificial nature and how they stuck to my teeth. So, I have moved on to real solid food. I typically eat about half a Picky Bar before a morning run (assuming I’m running pre-breakfast) and slowly finish the other half during my long run. This has worked great for me for several half marathons and shorter distances.

However, with training for my first full marathon beginning in September, I am going to need more options. I’m open for suggestions!

 

[FredtheDuck]

ATTQOTD: I use Clif Bloks and Tailwind. I haven't found a flavor of GU I like and I'm not wild about the consistency, and I have too much trouble with things like waffles when I'm on the go (DH loves those Honey Stinger waffles though!).

RE: ALL the foods:

- All beers are not created equal.
- I don't understand biscuits and gravy for breakfast, that just makes me want to go back to sleep. I also tend not to like white gravy.
- Cereal: For fruit loops vs pebbles: I'm all about fruit loops. But I prefer lucky charms, although DH "discourages" (read: won't buy) because of how sugary they are.
- Bring on the Cilantro. One of the things I got most frustrated about when I moved to the east coast was how hard it is to find good cilantro.
- Other breakfast foods: HATE cold pizza. Pancakes=meh. I'm on board with french toast. NOT a fan of waffles unless they're potato waffles... the only reason we own a waffle iron.

 

[jennamfeo]

It's on Amazon Prime if you have that... I was surprised to see it gone from Netflix too a few weeks ago when we had the QOTD about the running movies and went and found it on Prime.

Welp, I know what I am watching tonight...

so that's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

I say this ALL the time.

ATTQOTD: During a long run (6+ miles) I will bring Nuun, Gu (Campfire Smores, Cappuccino, Mocha), and Run Gum. My only complaint about Gu during long runs is that they are messy and I never know where to put my empty packet, so I bring a ziplock and put it in there, which is a hassle.

 

[Sailormoon2]

Cilantro is a garbage food grown from the seeds of hell.

Amen sister!

gravy helps make everything better

TRUTH!

For fueling during your long run or you a "liquids" (think GU) or solids (think the jelly bean fuel) type of person and why?

Liquids all the way!! Gatorade or Powerade. I've heard really good things about Tailwind, but have yet to find it up here in Canada. I will use Gels when my mileage exceeds 13.

 

[KingLlama]

Okay, first.....I make biscuits and gravy, but with chorizo in the gravy instead of regular sausage. Goodness. Gracious. You'll want a cigarette afterward.

As for my ATTQOTD: I'm really glad this was asked, because I'm still a newbie to long runs and am experimenting. Trying gels this weekend for the first time. Stingers don't bother me, but as someone else said, they're a chore to open as you're running, and make my mouth so dry.

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

 

[Dis_Yoda]

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

It depends on the person. I go every 3 miles but I'm slow (so 45 to 50 minutes). My husband goes every 6 miles (so 55 minutes)

 

[gjramsey]

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

Rut-roh, this could turn into a math question! intake to equal amount burned.....

I usually take a gel every 45 minutes or 5 miles or runs longer than 13 miles. SIS actually recommends taking one every 20 minutes, but their packets are too large to carry that many for a long run.

For beans, I have no clue how many to take at a time, so I would usually eat 3-4 at a time, again, every 45 minutes or so.

 

[camaker]

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

My rule of thumb is no nutrition needed for anything under 90-100 minutes in duration. If a run/race is going to surpass that, then I will typically use a gel every 35-45 minutes or so, depending on the availability of the water stops. Always remember that you need water to digest the fuel and get it into your system. Make sure you take water, not sports drink, around the time you consume it. If you take the fuel on top of a sports drink, you get a double shot of carbs that your body has to figure out how to deal with and may not get the full benefits from because you won't have enough water to support intake of both.

 

[DopeyBadger]

QOTD: For fueling during your long run or you a "liquids" (think GU) or solids (think the jelly bean fuel) type of person and why?

I'm a liquid (E-Gel) user for my long runs (over 100 min) and races. The short answer as to why is it has 37g carbs per package from two different sources (which is meant to stave off glycogen depletion), it serves as a significant source of electrolyte replenishment, and I don't mind the texture or taste (actually quite palatable to me).

Spoiler: Longer Answer

There has been some research to show that two carb sourced nutrition is more readily available to be absorbed because of how each type of carb is processed by the body. More routes of absorption means more carbs can be taken in and more efficiently through the system. It also is the closest to meeting the American College of Sports Medicine recommended electrolyte replacement at 500mg Sodium and 200mg Potassium per liter (34oz) of consumed liquid.

For every 2 g of carbs, the body needs 1 oz of water to absorb it. Thus, I need to drink 18.5 oz of water between every E-Gel to ensure its proper absorption. A key thing to remember is this is water, and not gatorade or something similar. Gatorade is already an isotonic solution with a carb to liquid ratio around 2g:1oz. Which means there is no available water from gatorade to aid in absorbing the carbs from the E-Gel. If I take 1 E-Gel and 18.5 oz Gatorade, I will start to get GI issues (also known as the feeling of a brick in the stomach) because the body has no available water to digest the E-Gel (this isn't exclusive to E-gel as this is true across the board with carbs). Guess where the body pulls water from in emergency digesting needs... the muscles?!?! So if you don't hydrate appropriately you start to dehydrate your muscles in addition to making the bricks in your stomach and it leads to an inevitable crash. Important to note that in non-ideal weather situations, the 2g carb to 1 oz water ratio increases because of the loss of water in excessive sweating.

For the purposes of training, I only intake carbs on runs longer than 100 minutes in duration. My intent is to try and teach my body to become more efficient in using fat as a fuel source. If we could theoretically teach the body to use 100% fat as a fuel source we could run for VERY long distances with no threat of glycogen depletion. So this teaching of the body can be a very useful technique. On runs over 100 minutes I usually consume 1 E-gel when 100-120 minutes and 2 E-gels if 120-150 minutes in duration. These are not because I "have" to have the E-Gels for training at these distances for threat of glycogen depletion, but because getting too close to the "wall" to often increases the need for recovery between bouts of exercise. In addition, when you enter training runs your glycogen storage may not be 100% (whereas a tapered race is more likely you are).

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

I base it on the needs for the distance. Mostly for me, it comes down to knowing based on calculations how much I need to stave off glycogen depletion (my purpose for carb consumption) and then evenly spacing out the needs over the course of an event. Keeping in mind the water consumption necessary and availability on the race course. Here's my long but thorough explanation for some time ago (it's where I stole some context for today's ATTQOTD).

Spoiler: Long explanation

The need for carbs during running comes down to math to me . Do I have enough carbs in storage in my muscles to run my pace for this distance? I don't have any medical need for nutrition per se, but need to have enough carbs on board and replenish my electrolytes.

Current body Weight (in kg) X Distance (in km) = Total kcals burned

In total, fat and carbs equal out the total kcals burned. The faster you run (relative to your fitness level) the more carbs you burn. I'll use my numbers as an example.

Weight = 72.7 kg
Distance = 42.195 km
kcals = 3068.7

Now my calculator makes two assumptions.

1. You have an average weight to leg muscle ratio. Outside of a leg muscle biopsy, it is near impossible to know where a person falls on the scale of leg muscle. The size of the leg muscle partially determines the capability of carb storage.
2. You have an average metabolic efficiency profile. Your use of carbs and fat the faster you run (relative to your fitness level) is average. Again, outside of a lab metabolic efficiency test, it is near impossible to tell whether someone is average or not. The faster you run the more carbs you use. Some people might be 60% carbs 40% fat at 65% VO2max and others at 80% VO2max (this is where the metabolic efficiency profile would be helpful).

*Chart from Rapoport's paper

If we assume (and it is a leap), that a person is average for both of these parameters then we can make some calculations based on needs.

Leg Muscle Mass = 15.3
Carb storage = 1221.8 kcals

Current VO2max = 55 (Based on Garmin 235 which is highly dependent on an accurate HRmax of which I am not 100% confident in. If maxHR is off by 10 bpm, then Garmin VO2max can be off by as much as 10%. My 220-age=189, but based on my historical HR during races my maxHR is much more likely to be 170-180.)

My last marathon was at a pace of 7:40 min/mile and based on some other calculations that makes it 75% of my VO2max. Based on an average metabolic efficiency ratio I would need 2148 kcals carbs to run 42.195 km, at my weight, at 75% VO2max. This gives me a deficit of 926 kcals carbs. I can pull some from the liver and thus my final deficit is 826 kcals carbs (which equals 247.1 kcals carbs per hour which equals 61.8 g carbs per hour). This is where a traditional gel strategy would kick in. Ok I need 61.8 g carbs per hour to run a marathon at my weight and current fitness level at my goal pace. Keep in mind the limit for carb intake per hour is somewhere around 75-90 g (I've done 75g per hour successfully before).

On the above calculator you can see my %VO2max at 75 is equal to a 3:20:40 marathon time. It requires 2148 kcal carbs. If I did not do any carb pre-loading or carb intake during the race, I would hit the glycogen depletion wall at ~14.9 miles (assuming I entered the race with a normal 100% carb storage)

I personally use E-Gel as my carb and electrolyte source. It has 37g carbs per package from two different sources. The has been some research to show that two carb sourced nutrition is more readily available to be absorbed because of how each type of carb is processed by the body. More routes of absorption means more carbs can be taken in and more efficiently through the system. It also is the closest to meeting the American College of Sports Medicine recommended electrolyte replacement at 500mg Sodium and 200mg Potassium per liter (34oz) of consumed liquid.

For every 2 g of carbs, the body needs 1 oz of water to absorb it. Thus, I need to drink 18.5 oz of water between every E-Gel to ensure its proper absorption. A key thing to remember is this is water, and not gatorade or something similar. Gatorade is already an isotonic solution with a carb to liquid ratio around 2g:1oz. Which means there is no available water from gatorade to aid in absorbing the carbs from the E-Gel. If I take 1 E-Gel and 18.5 oz Gatorade, I will start to get GI issues (also known as the feeling of a brick in the stomach) because the body has no available water to digest the E-Gel (this isn't exclusive to E-gel as this is true across the board with carbs). Guess where the body pulls water from in emergency digesting needs... the muscles?!?! So if you don't hydrate appropriately you start to dehydrate your muscles in addition to making the bricks in your stomach and it leads to an inevitable crash. Important to note that in non-ideal weather situations, the 2g carb to 1 oz water ratio increases because of the loss of water in excessive sweating.

So for my last race I consumed 3oz of water per mile. I took one E-gel at the beginning, one at mile 5, one at mile 12, and one at mile 19. Do the math and that's 37+37+37+37=148 total carbs. But I needed 247 carbs to avoid the wall, so what else did I do???

Well I also do a pre-loading of carbs on the day prior. I'm also trying to get rid of using gels or carbs during racing. How can I do that?

It's a two-step process.

1. Teach the body to increase carb storage capacity.
2. Store more than 100% carb capacity immediately prior to race day.

Step 1 can be accomplished with something called Glycogen Depletion training. WARNING! THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED LIGHTLY! These glycogen depletion training runs occur at least 8-12 weeks prior to race day and can be no more than once every 3-4 weeks. You plan to do your normal long run in duration between 90-150 minutes. You eat no breakfast prior and you use no fuel during the run. Your body becomes starved for carbs during the run, but there is nothing available. You typically fade hard at the end of these runs and as others have described learn what it feels like to be at near 0. When you get home you consume a large load of carbs within 15 minutes of finishing. Preferably mostly in liquid form as it can digest more readily. Your body will quickly store as many carbs as it can. The body adapts to the training by saying to itself, hey this guy is crazy and needs more carbs. Let's store more carbs in his legs for the next time he tries to do this to us. Thus, this increases your ability to store above 100% of your physical carb storage capabilities based on the leg muscle mass calculations.

Step 2 is accomplished through a sophisticated pre-race day carb loading strategy. There are a few out there, but I prefer the Western Australian method. Over the past year, I have been training my body to be able to tolerate the carb loading procedure. According to research, it can allow you to maximally store as much as 190% carb capacity (although results varied in the study and I believe the variation in the results is due to Step 1). So if I could maximally train my body to store 190% carb capacity, then it means I could store 2321 kcals of carbs. Remember how much I needed to run my pace, my distance, my weight... 1902. So now I've created a surplus of carbs stored in the muscles in the day or days (research by others suggest that carb loading could be done as many as 5 days prior to the event) ahead and can run the distance without carbs being a limiting factor. In fact, if I were physically capable, then carb depletion wouldn't become an issue at my weight and VO2max until I tried to run a 2:44:49 (81% VO2max). Yea, there are plenty of other reasons why I can't currently run that pace and one of them is not carbs. Here's the Western Australia plan based on my weight (as you can see this is not your typical spaghetti dinner):

What's the drawback to this plan? There is no feedback prior to race day on how many carbs you've stored. I could calculate to the cows come home that I'll store 190%, but there's not really any way to know outside of a muscle biopsy the day prior whether I've done it successfully. So the plan takes a bit of leap of faith, but I know based on the science it works. The gels are easier from a standpoint that I can pre-calculate to eat this many gels at a certain rate with a certain water intake to determine I'll have sufficient carbs to finish. This however doesn't eliminate the need for electrolyte replacement (but if you drink some gatorade or electrolyte tabs on course, then you'll be fine). So at this point in my running career I commit overkill but doing some gels and a carb pre-loading prior to the event. As time progresses my goal is to get more and more comfortable with minimal on course nutrition and mostly doing pre-loading. But that's a lot of pressure (months of training) on some calculations to go right.

So something I realized when I went through this exercise is that I don't really need to do any carb replacement for any race other than a marathon or more. Unless I plan to run 85% VO2max or faster, then my calculator states that you won't hit glycogen depletion until after 13.1 miles.

The biggest question to me though is the accuracy of this calculation is highly dependent on the VO2max assessment being accurate. If that number is off, then so is your goal pace as a % VO2max, which means your "wall" estimation is off as well.

For the purposes of training, I only intake carbs on runs longer than 100 minutes in duration. My intent is to try and teach my body to become more efficient in using fat as a fuel source. If we could theoretically teach the body to use 100% fat as a fuel source we could run for VERY long distances with no threat of glycogen depletion. So this teaching of the body can be a very useful technique. On runs over 100 minutes I usually consume 1 E-gel when 100-120 minutes and 2 E-gels if 120-150 minutes in duration. These are not because I "have" to have the E-Gels for training at these distances for threat of glycogen depletion, but because getting too close to the "wall" to often increases the need for recovery between bouts of exercise. In addition, when you enter training runs your glycogen storage may not be 100% (whereas a tapered race is more likely you are).

 

[kleph]

My rule of thumb is no nutrition needed for anything under 90-100 minutes in duration. If a run/race is going to surpass that, then I will typically use a gel every 35-45 minutes or so, depending on the availability of the water stops. Always remember that you need water to digest the fuel and get it into your system. Make sure you take water, not sports drink, around the time you consume it. If you take the fuel on top of a sports drink, you get a double shot of carbs that your body has to figure out how to deal with and may not get the full benefits from because you won't have enough water to support intake of both.

this is why i finally gave up on gels and any kind of mid-run 'food.' well, that and the fact all of it is a hassle to carry and deal with on a run.

but gummie worms always seemed to give me a little burst of happy on a brutal long run. that probably mattered more than any nutritional assist.

 

[Bree]

If your stomach gives you problems with regular fuel like gels, bloks, and beans, give Tailwind a try. It's a powder you mix with water which won't upset your stomach.

And it tastes good. I bought Mandarin Orange & Raspberry Buzz. The raspberry has caffeine in it. I wanted to test both versions out.

 

[SarahDisney]

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

Many fuels will have have timing instructions on the package, but I've found that its definitely a personal thing. I started off with nothing for runs under an hour and fueling every hour. Now I do nothing for runs under 90 minutes and smaller fueling every 3 miles. Play around a bit and see what works for you. But remember that you need to fuel before you think you do - if you feel like it's time to fuel, you probably should have taken something already.

 

[FFigawi]

Do you find that this gives you enough energy for a long race (marathon) or do you also take some type of traditional fuel?

(I could look it up, but asking it easier )

You mix it yourself to whatever concentration you need. I mix a super concentrate to last all day (Ironman) and then drink water as needed along the way too. You can also buy small packets with enough calories for an hour or two to carry with you & mix at aid stations.

Sidenote: I am thinking about thinking about thinking about taking up my friends offer of a short weekend in Jan in WDW. Maybe...thinking about it. A lot of stuff is going on and being weighed. But there are thoughts. Only thoughts. So I will keep you all posted.

Dopey is only a four-day weekend. Just sayin.

 

[apdebord]

My question for everyone is, how frequently do you eat something during a race? I've read some people say every 45 minutes, others say every 90. Is it a matter of personal preference, or is there a recommended frequency?

I agree that this is up to personal discretion and what works for you. I have a fast metabolism and I tend to get hangry and light headed while running, so I try to remember to take one clif blok around every mile for anything longer than 6 miles. 6 or more I do a gu 15 minutes prior. For a half I do a gu at 6.55, so no blok at mile 6 or 7. This is coupled with hydration too; while training I drink smart water for short runs. For anything 5 or more I use skratch or Tailwind.

This is obviously a lot more nutrition than what the normal runner takes, but it’s what works for me!