The Running Thread - 2016

[BuckeyeBama]

Question for those of you who use HR zones on your runs - do you go by the actual heart rate or do you pay attention to the zones? I was supposed to running in zone 2 last night but the heart rate I needed to be at put me in zone 4. I'm trying to adjust my watch but it's a pain. I didn't really enjoy running by HR because I felt like I was always yo-yoing the pace to match the HR. Was kind of uncomfortable. But I get the need to run to effort and not just pace - pace is just more comfortable for me. Hope that all made sense.

Lots of science which proves that you need to run based on effort or heart rate rather than pace. Why? Because changing terrain or weather conditions effect your ability to run effectively at a specific pace, but not at a specific heart rate or effort level. Today is a perfect example - it was 80 degrees outside when I ran today, and I was scheduled for a zone 3 run. Because of a business trip my last run was on Monday, but on Monday it was 55 degrees outside when I did my zone 2 run. Guess which run produced a faster pace? Yep - the zone 2 run.

Both runs were on the same route and covered the same distance, but 25 degrees in temperature makes a HUGE difference. Today my heart rate was 15 bpm faster and I ran slower than on Monday. But I got the same training results, and that is all that matters. If I had pushed for a specific pace today my zone 3 run would have turned into a zone 4 or 5 run, which would have produced diminished training improvement.

Does that mean that we should never run with a specific pace goal? Nope - if you plan to race at a specific pace, you can't wait for race day to get used to it. But the running that makes you capable of running at that faster pace for extended periods of time is the slower paced running that you do every day.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I would highly suggest you use the Heart Rate Reserve method (% of HRR) when setting up your watch (instead of % of Max HR, or some other method). For an example of how the Zones are determined with the HRR method please see the calculations below (you need both your Max HR and Resting HR to use this method):

View attachment 171548

Easy runs should be in Zone 2.

I agree with this and it is how I set my HR zones. I just wish that my max heart rate was still that high.

 

[baxter24]

QOTD: What are your running goals for the summer?

Increase mileage and speed, stay healthy, and not die of heat stroke while running outside. I would also like to try and run more outside than I normally have in previous summers.

 

[Mickey's sweetheart]

A cautionary tale: If something is hurting, try a new pair of shoes.
I've been fighting with a painful, tight tendon in my lower leg since February. I tried physical therapy, massage, ultra sound treatments, and stretching. Nothing really helped. But this week I started running in a fresh pair of shoes and the pain has disappeared. I've run long enough to know better but I just wasn't paying attention to how long is been wearing those shoes. (I was alternating running in 3 pairs.)
So lesson of the day: keep track of your mileage and don't try to squeeze out extra miles from an old pair.

 

[camaker]

So, I run by pace during training, but I also check my HR as I am running (as well as analyze it on Garmin Connect after the run to see how much time I spent in each Zone), so I roughly know where my HR should be for a given pace. Sometimes when I'm on a run, I might feel like I'm exerting more effort than normal for a given pace, or I might look at my watch and see that my HR is higher than normal for the pace. This can happen for many reasons, but the most likely are: (i) I'm on a hill, (ii) I'm coming down with or recovering from a cold, (iii) it's hotter or more humid than normal, or (iv) I'm overtraining. Depending on what I think is going on, I might slow down to lower my heart rate, or I might keep going at the planned pace. For example, if I'm just on a hill, I know my HR will be slightly elevated, so I just keep going at pace, but if it's hot or I'm recovering from a cold, I will usually slow down to the correct HR range.

As @FFigawi said, you need to plug in your correct HR zones into your watch. If you have a Garmin watch, you can do this straight on the watch or you can update it in Garmin Connect under the Devices>[Pick your device]>User Settings, and then sync with your watch after you have made changes.

I would highly suggest you use the Heart Rate Reserve method (% of HRR) when setting up your watch (instead of % of Max HR, or some other method). For an example of how the Zones are determined with the HRR method please see the calculations below (you need both your Max HR and Resting HR to use this method):

View attachment 171548

Easy runs should be in Zone 2.

Thanks for the chart. I put in my resting and max heart rates and set the watch to use %HRR last weekend. I (very wrongly) assumed that the watch would use appropriately set ranges based on those values. I just went in and found out that it had Zone 5 set to 79-92%! No wonder that easy 133bpm average run I had earlier in the week showed up as a Zone 3-4 run! I'm looking forward to seeing how the numbers pan out with the appropriate ranges set.

 

[Kathymford]

I know this has been discussed before, but how do you determine your true Max HR. I've seen some say something about a number minus your age (for me that would be 179) . But when I do that, the number is barely above some of my current runs (I'm usually around 170 max on most of my runs). Am I really going too hard?

 

[croach]

Lots of science which proves that you need to run based on effort or heart rate rather than pace. Why? Because changing terrain or weather conditions effect your ability to run effectively at a specific pace, but not at a specific heart rate or effort level. Today is a perfect example - it was 80 degrees outside when I ran today, and I was scheduled for a zone 3 run. Because of a business trip my last run was on Monday, but on Monday it was 55 degrees outside when I did my zone 2 run. Guess which run produced a faster pace? Yep - the zone 2 run.

Both runs were on the same route and covered the same distance, but 25 degrees in temperature makes a HUGE difference. Today my heart rate was 15 bpm faster and I ran slower than on Monday. But I got the same training results, and that is all that matters. If I had pushed for a specific pace today my zone 3 run would have turned into a zone 4 or 5 run, which would have produced diminished training improvement.

Does that mean that we should never run with a specific pace goal? Nope - if you plan to race at a specific pace, you can't wait for race day to get used to it. But the running that makes you capable of running at that faster pace for extended periods of time is the slower paced running that you do every day.

Well I guess I'm going to have no choice but get used to it and I'm sure it will get more comfortable as I go. I just prefer my running to be less thinking and more running. Give me paces and I'll do run them whether it's a slow recovery run, repeats, or a tempo run. I felt like with HR running I was constantly having to look at my watch and adjust the pace because I was out of the zone. By the end I was getting pretty frustrated with the run. But it's a learning curve and I guess I'll keep adjusting because coach says I have to.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I know this has been discussed before, but how do you determine your true Max HR. I've seen some say something about a number minus your age (for me that would be 179) . But when I do that, the number is barely above some of my current runs (I'm usually around 170 max on most of my runs). Am I really going too hard?

If you are approaching 170 on most of your runs, yes, you are really running too hard - way too hard.

 

[Waiting2goback]

If you are approaching 170 on most of your runs, yes, you are really running too hard - way too hard.

Without knowing your age and other info I would have to agree. I'm 42 and I have to sprint at my top speed for about 2 minutes to get that high, or sprint up a hill for example. The rule of thumb is, on easy runs, you should be able to hold a conversation without being winded. Can you do that on most of your runs?

 

[opusone]

I know this has been discussed before, but how do you determine your true Max HR. I've seen some say something about a number minus your age (for me that would be 179) . But when I do that, the number is barely above some of my current runs (I'm usually around 170 max on most of my runs). Am I really going too hard?

I think there are some structured runs that will get you close to max HR, and you can try one of these (just search on Google), but I just use my max HR from a recent 5k race where I was going all out. Usually in the last mile (or even last 0.1 mile) I will hit a max, and I just assume that is my max HR. If I use the "220 - age" formula, I get 174, but I have seen 187 recently during a race, so that is what I use.

 

[DVCFan1994]

Yeah I live in an area where there are a lot of hills so I'm constantly adjusting my pace as I hit them. I agree that using both is a good way to go and I guess it will just take some getting used to.

I live in a very hilly area. My coach, who also trains in the same area, said as long as I am going both up and down the hills with some flats as well, I can give myself an extra 5-10 bpm on the hills. There a a few routes with far more hills than not, and those he tells me to keep it in zone 2 or within a few bpm because theres not much chance of recovery and it won't average down into zone 2.

I know this has been discussed before, but how do you determine your true Max HR. I've seen some say something about a number minus your age (for me that would be 179) . But when I do that, the number is barely above some of my current runs (I'm usually around 170 max on most of my runs). Am I really going too hard?

I used to think 165-170 was totally normal for runs, that was often my average HR, often maxing out in the 180s. But my coach explained a lot of benefits of running easier. And although I was very wary at first, it has been about a month and I can tell there are benefits already.

My coach gave me three options for testing my max heart rate. I have no idea whether they are common or just what he has found effective for his clients in the past. He also knew I was coming off an injury, so he suggested option number 3 which was to run 1 mile to warm up, 2 miles at tempo pace and end the run with a charge up a painful hill then check my max. It was a tough test, but interesting to look at. My max was higher than I thought (191 vs. 183) but my zones 2 & 3 are still way lower than I am used to training. Its an adjustment training this way, I feel really slow. But I am looking forward to seeing my progress and hopefully staying injury free. I wasn't at 100% when I did the test either, so I think he's going to have me repeat it in a month or two. Can't wait. Summer heat should make it fun

 

[Kathymford]

If you are approaching 170 on most of your runs, yes, you are really running too hard - way too hard.

Without knowing your age and other info I would have to agree. I'm 42 and I have to sprint at my top speed for about 2 minutes to get that high, or sprint up a hill for example. The rule of thumb is, on easy runs, you should be able to hold a conversation without being winded. Can you do that on most of your runs?

I'm not at 170 the whole run, but I usually do hit it late in the run (say, last quarter of planned mileage) towards the end of a running interval. I'll have to preface this by saying that I know my heart rate in general is higher than most. Genetically I have small red blood cells, if you research Pete Sampras he has the same thing, and I think that has something to do with it (although I have no scientific knowledge if this is true. lol) I think conditioning has a lot to do with it too, so it is getting better. Sometimes just walking at the beginning of my run already has me in the 100s.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I'm not at 170 the whole run, but I usually do hit it late in the run (say, last quarter of planned mileage) towards the end of a running interval. I'll have to preface this by saying that I know my heart rate in general is higher than most. Genetically I have small red blood cells, if you research Pete Sampras he has the same thing, and I think that has something to do with it (although I have no scientific knowledge if this is true. lol) I think conditioning has a lot to do with it too, so it is getting better. Sometimes just walking at the beginning of my run already has me in the 100s.

When I was in my early 30's I ran too hard virtually every day. I thought that it was the way to get faster, so that is what I did. Then I met a running coach. The goal is to never get out of the zone in which you are running on a particular day - even at the end. But if you do, it should be barely, not by 30-50 bpm. When I started running this way I saw dramatic improvements in my VO2 and in my race times in longer races (10+ miles) - improvements that I simply could not achieve running the same number of miles/week at a faster pace.

Running slower made me a faster runner.

 

[Kathymford]

When I was in my early 30's I ran too hard virtually every day. I thought that it was the way to get faster, so that is what I did. Then I met a running coach. The goal is to never get out of the zone in which you are running on a particular day - even at the end. But if you do, it should be barely, not by 30-50 bpm. When I started running this way I saw dramatic improvements in my VO2 and in my race times in longer races (10+ miles) - improvements that I simply could not achieve running the same number of miles/week at a faster pace.

Running slower made me a faster runner.

But I'm already slow. LOL. I will be walking if I go any slower. But I understand what you mean.

 

[ebradley23]

So all this heart rate discussion got me looking at my info on my PR runs. I had to laugh when I looked at my marathon HR. I had a max HR of 181 - which I hit at the very beginning. You think I was a little amped up? Haha! It didn't help that the center-of-attention-loving, only-child in me stopped to get a picture taken with a friend then noticed the race had started. We had to practically sprint to catch up with the rest of our friends. I recovered quickly and ended up averaging 166. Now, I'm curious what my true max HR is. It's supposed to be 182 according the math. No part of me wants to test it though - it just makes me tired thinking about it.

 

[Miranda]

This kind of training interests me, but I don't really know if I understand how to incorporate it into my training. Or if I can? I only run 3x a week (2 shorter weekday runs and 1 long Saturday run), and I do run/walk intervals. I also have no HRM but I could get a Scosche armband one to pair with my 220.

 

[croach]

When I was in my early 30's I ran too hard virtually every day. I thought that it was the way to get faster, so that is what I did. Then I met a running coach. The goal is to never get out of the zone in which you are running on a particular day - even at the end. But if you do, it should be barely, not by 30-50 bpm. When I started running this way I saw dramatic improvements in my VO2 and in my race times in longer races (10+ miles) - improvements that I simply could not achieve running the same number of miles/week at a faster pace.

Running slower made me a faster runner.

Yeah you have to have slow runs for recovery and base building. I think the rule on LSD runs is like 60-90 slower then marathon pace. I'm surprised though that the coach would always have you staying in the same zone for an entire run. No tempo runs, pyramids, ladders, or repeats? Or are those considered speed work and fall into a different type of run? Or am I dense and misunderstanding? Either way it's interesting how many different ways out there people will tell you to run.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Yeah you have to have slow runs for recovery and base building. I think the rule on LSD runs is like 60-90 slower then marathon pace. I'm surprised though that the coach would always have you staying in the same zone for an entire run. No tempo runs, pyramids, ladders, or repeats? Or are those considered speed work and fall into a different type of run? Or am I dense and misunderstanding? Either way it's interesting how many different ways out there people will tell you to run.

Sorry, to be clear, my zone 2 runs were only zone 2 runs - nothing outside of zone 2. I had 1 or 2 runs per week which incorporated speed or hills for benefits not possible in zone 2 runs. Zone 2 runs are not "speed work", they play a different role. Every run is important, but for different reasons. They all build upon one another. But the most important are the zone 2 runs.

 

[croach]

Sorry, to be clear, my zone 2 runs were only zone 2 runs - nothing outside of zone 2. I had 1 or 2 runs per week which incorporated speed or hills for benefits not possible in zone 2 runs. Zone 2 runs are not "speed work", they play a different role. Every run is important, but for different reasons. They all build upon one another. But the most important are the zone 2 runs.

Got it. Makes sense.

 

[Princess_Nikki]

QOTD: What are your running goals for the summer?

To just keep running? Lol.

But, really, I would love to increase my pace. I'm so stuck at 10-11 min/miles.