The Running Thread—2023

[SheHulk]

ATTQOTD:
I'll start by saying, I don't think I'm the target market for these shoes, as I am on the heavier side for a runner and, let's just say my pace is far from elite. That said:
I bought 2 pairs of the original Hoka Carbon X when they came out, and then hoarded them until I had a marathon to run them in. I used them for my marathon in 2021, after test driving them on a few tempo runs and maybe a 10-miler first. They felt fine, I don't know if they did anything for me really as far as my speed. In the actual marathon, my left hip, which is the only joint I have that ever really barks at me, really started barking. Was it just because I had been running 20 miles already? Or was it the shoes? I had run about 5 marathons prior without hip pain but I was running this one at a harder effort. So who knows. I did PR but my training would have predicted that with our without the shoes.
I used the second pair in the half I just ran, again, I PRed, but my hip was yelling again at about mile 10. I don't usually have pain during previous halfs but again I was pushing the effort way more than I usually do. So you see the confound here. I only use them when I really want to push the effort, and I only get pain when I use them (and pushing the effort). I don't think I'm going to go carbon plated again, from now on I think I'm going to prioritize comfort over the tiny pace benefit I may or may not get.
A bunch of folks on here have used them, so hopefully you get some more useful responses.

 

[azrivest]

QOTD: I have fallen into a rabbit hole of carbon-plated shoe research. For those who have used them, do you think they're worth it? Which model(s) do you like? Do you use them just for races? Speedwork? Tempo runs? How long do they last?

TBH I'm pretty sure I'm just looking for an excuse to give them a try, but I have no idea how to pick one (the selection seems more limited than other types of shoes at running stores, at least when I'm looking online, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to just go and try some on). And they are pretty expensive so I don't want to waste my money.

My growing interest in running shoes thanks you for your commentary.

I'm always a running shoe enabler I'm a middle-of-the-pack runner (I think you've read my training journal a few times so you know about where I'm at) and I can say carbon-plated shoes really make a difference, even if I'm not super fast. I use them mostly for racing, but I also do my speedwork runs in them to get used to the feel. I don't wear them for my standard easy or long runs cause I want to preserve them. DopeyBadger has also written about his experience with the Nike plated shoes and Endorphin Pro on his training journal and I think he wears them regularly and gets an impressive amount of mileage in each pair.

I own a pair of NB FC Elite v2 that I wore for my first marathon. The shoes were, surprinsingly, both springy/responsive and cushioned. They really feel so awesome underfoot. I just got a pair of Endorphin Pro 3 that I'll be wearing at Princess. I also have a pair of Magic Speed (half plate) and Endorphin Speed (nylon plate). My favorite so far are the Endorphin Pro. (But everyone's experience will be difference, you should try some out before)

 

[The Expert]

QOTD: I have fallen into a rabbit hole of carbon-plated shoe research. For those who have used them, do you think they're worth it? Which model(s) do you like? Do you use them just for races? Speedwork? Tempo runs? How long do they last?

TBH I'm pretty sure I'm just looking for an excuse to give them a try, but I have no idea how to pick one (the selection seems more limited than other types of shoes at running stores, at least when I'm looking online, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to just go and try some on). And they are pretty expensive so I don't want to waste my money.

My growing interest in running shoes thanks you for your commentary.

I own a pair of NB FC Elite v2 that I wore for my first marathon. The shoes were, surprinsingly, both springy/responsive and cushioned. They really feel so awesome underfoot.

I'm SLOW so I am really not the target market for these, but I discovered the NB FC Elite v2 while training for my first Dopey in fall of 2021. I have a lot of weird fit/foot issues (Morton's neuroma on one foot, hammer toes, wide forefoot and skinny heels, longer second toes, etc) and these shoes accommodate every one of them. They are springy and responsive but also cushioned enough for me to spend 7+ hours in them for my marathon.

I did some long training runs in them and then rotated between two pair for all four Dopey races the last two years (different pairs obviously). NB is coming out with v3, which I have not had the chance to try yet

 

[SheHulk]

@azrivest and @The Expert you two are killing me! I found a pair of NB FC Elite v1's on a website in my size for $110. Anybody know if they are pretty much the same as the v2?
Forget what I said about not trying carbon plates again

 

[azrivest]

@azrivest and @The Expert you two are killing me! I found a pair of NB FC Elite v1's on a website in my size for $110. Anybody know if they are pretty much the same as the v2?
Forget what I said about not trying carbon plates again

The v1 are actually quite different from the v2. I coughed up the cash for the v2 because they were closer to what I was looking for: a very comfortable shoe that would get me through 26.2. The v2 have more cushioning and a less pronounced drop. They are generally regarded to be comfier than the v1.

 

[SheHulk]

The v1 are actually quite different from the v2. I coughed up the cash for the v2 because they were closer to what I was looking for: a very comfortable shoe that would get me through 26.2. The v2 have more cushioning and a less pronounced drop. They are generally regarded to be comfier than the v1.

Oops too late I didn't wait, just pulled the trigger on the v1's! Can't beat the price. I can use them for shorter races to test them out.

 

[The Expert]

Still a good price for a great shoe @SheHulk !

 

[Guidman]

ATTQOTD:
I've ran in plated shoes (both carbon and nylon). Like many here, I'm always in the market for the next running shoe. I have a pair of Endorphin Pros that I only use for races. You do notice the stiffness of the plate, certainly as you increase speed and your turnover increases. The faster you're going, the more benefit there is to get your foot through the gait cycle. I only have about 60 miles on my Pros and they still seem very stiff. I would guess though that by 150 miles, the plate would start to lose it's rigidity. I've ran in Endorphin Speeds (the goldilocks of shoes to me, it can handle anything) and got 600 miles out of a pair. The last 200, the plate was pretty shot and didn't offer much benefit. A nylon plate will last a lot longer.

Foam material is just as important to me though. My legs get more energy return and cushioning from an e-TPU or Pebax foam than an EVA one. They don't feel anywhere near as beat up after also.

 

[azrivest]

Still a good price for a great shoe @SheHulk !

Yep absolutely! Just wanted to clarify the difference between the two

 

[Herding_Cats]

My PT was/is a huge shoe nerd and showed me a whole bunch of stuff someone has done comparing all of the shoes....I think maybe it was from an insta account? Maybe a website? But the consensus was (assuming I'm remembering the gist of the conversation correctly), that with the new shoe technology there are huge gains in running economy. The "faster" you are, the more pronounced the affect, and while someone like me (a 2:40 HM'er at this point) would see minimal impact on my times, those fast runners could see as much as an improvement of something like 3% 5% (I don't remember the number, but I think this is what it said) over the "control" shoe they compared it to.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

link to study: https://scholarworks.sfasu.edu/kinesiology/33/


his post comparing a bunch of shoes, including crocs

 

[Zutroy]

ATTQOTD:

The original Nike 4% is probably my favorite shoe of all time. I wore them for the MW 10k this year, and they still pop. Generally most of the “super shoes“ are race-day only, since they tend to be glass cannons that have a limited life span. I use the Endorphin Speeds in my daily training rotation and they are amazing all-around shoes. I have two pairs of the Pros 1 which I use for halfs since the foam is pretty dense. I think plates really make themselves apparent at higher paces and turnover. The Nike Streakfly (which I like as a daily trainer, just not a racer) helps to see the benefit of a plate. The ZoomX foam is too squishy without the rigidity of the carbon plate.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

So basically what you're all saying is, I should definitely buy some Saucony was one of the brands I was looking at and several people have mentioned them, so I might go that route. I'm wary of "unisex" shoes or I would be considering Asics as well, and Nike doesn't have my size in either Vaporfly or Alphafly, so...

Foam material is just as important to me though. My legs get more energy return and cushioning from an e-TPU or Pebax foam than an EVA one. They don't feel anywhere near as beat up after also.

There are DIFFERENT KINDS OF FOAM??

I see another rabbit hole coming up...

 

[DopeyBadger]

ATTQOTD:

Looks like I've mentioned "Next%" so many times that I can't find when I started using them. Let's just say it's been a few years (maybe summer 2019?). I've run in the Next%, Next%2, Saucony Pro, and Alphafly. I have gone through several (maybe like 4-5) pairs of the Next% and Next%2. In my experience, they're race ready for about 100 miles or so. They're still useful on hard runs until about 500-600 miles. They're still useful for moderate paced runs out to 1000 miles or so. So when I buy a pair of Next% at $175, I'm getting them at about 20 cents per mile. Compare that to a pair of Saucony Rides. They're more useful as an easy or long run shoe. They usually cap out around 300-350 miles. So if I get 350 miles out of a pair of Rides at 20 cents per mile, then I need to get them $61 or better. If I can't them for less than $61, then the Next% end up being a bang for the buck. Kinvaras used to be my hard/race shoe and they would last me about 150 miles. So they needed to be at $26 or lower to equal the Next%. So yes, the initial price is high, but if they truly last nearly 3-6x as long that offsets the price. So even if they provided me no benefits in running, they are useful because of the longevity I've gotten out of them.

Downsides for the Next% (and 2). They don't handle turns well. Because of the high stack height, if you try and turn too sharp you start to really lean into your ankle. That can (and has) cause issues. The Next% also don't feel great on easy runs for me. I tried for a a few months, and found it aggravated my foot to try and run in them too consistently.

Comparing the Next% to the Saucony Pro, I would say I felt like they were similar. The Pro felt more grounded and could handle the sharp turns a bit better. The Pro did not handle the uphills as well as the Next%. The Next% feel like they really eat the uphills, and the Pros bothered my knees a bit. So I've found the Pros niche to be a good flat day shoe. They also work well for the treadmill for me.

Comparing the Next% and Alphafly, I'd say they're more similar than different. Although today I found that the Alphafly feel like they turn into bricks at about 13F. Not sure if it has something to do with the air pocket thingys they have. But the night prior the old (600 mile) Next% felt much better than the fresh Alphafly did. I prefer the feeling of the Next% to the Alphafly. The Alphafly also have a slightly larger backend, and the front end with those air pockets is very rigid. I have a tendency to swing my foot inwards during my stride. So I tend to hit my ankles on the swing through. The Next% don't cause any problems because they're a tad thinner and the material is softer. The Alphafly caused me to bleed during my recent marathon because of the constant collisions I was experiencing. Moving forward the Alphafly are being used as a long run/hard run shoe until they die out. I won't be ordering another pair of them.

As of others said, I feel like the benefits of the Next% become more pronounced the faster I run. So I really notice them when I run at mile pace (5:30s and under). I've hit sub-4 times on occasion in them, and even a few sub-3 paces for seconds which is not something I've seen in other shoes. It's hard for me to say whether I've seen any performance benefit with them in other races. My 10k PR from Jan 2018 was in Saucony Kinvaras. I ran the equivalent HM time in Nov 2019 in Next%. My M PR is still from Oct 2017 in a pair of Saucony Kinvaras. With that being said, the longevity and cost benefit of the shoe has me coming back. And they're just fun to run in even if I don't get pace benefits from them.

 

[Zutroy]

So basically what you're all saying is, I should definitely buy some Saucony was one of the brands I was looking at and several people have mentioned them, so I might go that route. I'm wary of "unisex" shoes or I would be considering Asics as well, and Nike doesn't have my size in either Vaporfly or Alphafly, so...


There are DIFFERENT KINDS OF FOAM??

I see another rabbit hole coming up...

Each brand has their own proprietary foam. Saucony has PWRUN PB, Asics has FLYTEFOAM, Nike has ZoomX, which are all PEBA foam (polyether block amide). Adidas has boost and Reebok has Floatride Foam, which are E-TPU (expanded thermoplastic poly-urethane). Adidas also has Lightstrike Pro foam, which is maybe an EVA/TPU blend. The newest foams let you have high stack height, low weight, and lots of energy return.

 

[PrincessV]

I’ve spent the better part of my day trying to decide if I need a 1/2 size larger and/or a wide width in the NB FuelCell Rebel v3, which is NOT a plated shoe, and now y’all have my slow-as-molasses self looking at plated shoes that I definitely do not need. Enablers, the lot of ya!

While I’m here and we’re talking shoes, Altra went and ruined the Torin for me with the 6. It’s not just an unpleasant ride: the stupid shoe is causing some serious foot and ankle tendon pain. So now I’m trying to decide whether to hunt down every last pair of 5s I can find, or try another shoe altogether. Hence the Rebel size quandary.

 

[marty3d]

ATTQOD: add me in the Next% club. I like them for half marathon + distance. They’ve been very good for me at eliminating and knee pain at those distances. Wore them during the Marathon this year and felt much better in the last 6 miles (and the next day) than in previous marathons (to be fair - that has more to do with better training than the shoes but every bit helps)

FWIW I do size them half a size larger than my other Nikes.

 

[striker1064]

ATTQOTD: They're the real deal. I wish I could find one that fits my weird feet; they're all too narrow (except for the original Alphafly, which was a fine width but rubbed blisters on my arch). It's hard to explain without trying them for yourself, but you feel lighter, faster, and your legs want to keep turning over with minimal effort. It's kind of wild. That said, it also feels much easier to roll an ankle because they're not as stable.

There are tons out there on the market these days. I'm looking forward to the next iteration of the Altra Vanish Carbon; the original was the only one that actually fit, but the upper on that shoe is a disaster.

If you're looking for something that's an in-between, check out the Saucony Endorphin Speed. No carbon plate (the Pro adds the plate), but it uses the same lightweight foam as the carbon racers.

 

[accm]

Great, I came in here to ask about Garmin's and I'm leaving looking into new shoes

But back to the Garmin. I think I'm finally ready to buy a Garmin. But I have no idea which one to go to. Right now I wear an apple watch, so I don't know if I want to trade the apple watch for a Garmin, or just get the Garmin for while running/exercising.
What garmin does everyone have/recommend? How does it integrate with an iPhone. If you've gone from an apple watch to a garmin, how have you found it?

 

[fatmanatee]

Well now I’m intrigued by these fancy race shoes. Do people generally just use them for races, given that the effectiveness lessens over time?

 

[Zutroy]

Well now I’m intrigued by these fancy race shoes. Do people generally just use them for races, given that the effectiveness lessens over time?

My Vaporflys I save for race day, and then they go into the rotation once retired from races. I try to match the shoe to the type of run I’m doing—Easy run, recovery run, speedwork, long run, tempo, etc. The Vaporfly is just not the right tool for an easy run, but great for tempo runs. Also, I believe there is a benefit from varying the type of shoe you train in. I have shoes like the Saucony Type A8s, which are extremely minimal and definitely work differently than shoes like the Novablast.