The Official LOST Season Five *No Spoilers* Thread

[debraW76]

I just LOVED the shot of young Ben where he looked so evil. That was the best.

And I'm happy to be not the one explaining time travel this time! Thanks!

Daniel is definitely not dead in my mind. I think he left and is on his own--heading to the Orchid where we saw him in another episode. I think he might have been kicked out of the Dharma group when he scared Charlotte...

Was it just me or did that episode just fly by? They usually do, but this one seemed moreso.

And the whole Sun having bad intentions or not being "with" the island doesn't work for me, cuz why would Christian help her? And I think his "I'm Sorry. You have a very long journey ahead." quote was telling.

Yes, Loved Ben. I was wondering when they were going to introduce him.
I agree- I don't think Daniel is dead.
Yes, the episode flew by. We heard the kids talking in what I thought was the middle of the episode. We paused it and told them to go to bed. When I hit play again I only had 2 minutes left!! I was so mad.
Not sure about Sun. I think it is that she did or didn't do something right to re-create the original flight exactly as Eloise had warned. Maybe she was sitting in the wrong seat, or, I don't know, FORGOT HER DAUGHTER!!

 

[brerrabbit]

Here is my question though. Although this was presented as a reason Richard Alpert never ages and since the whole Egyptian/ Ra Sungod thing with him now puts it into question.

In the case of the Losties who are in 1977 now, will they not age and remain their "crash age" until they catch back up to themselves in 2005?

I ask this because the whole question came to mind last night as I was watching Life on Mars after Lost. The main character goes from 2008 to 1973 and has a soulmate of sorts in 1973 that is Annie played by Gretchen Mole. She is the only one who he shares his secret with fully and he told her last night that if and when he goes back to 2008 he will find her and take her to eat sushi, and to all these places. If it happens she will have aged, but he would not have.

So the question remains, will the time travelers age between 1977 and the date they came to the island in 2005?

As far as Richard goes using this theroy he would have had to come from farther in the future (2020?) and gone waaaaaay back in time, but that would explain why he has never aged.

 

[debraW76]

Here is my question though. Although this was presented as a reason Richard Alpert never ages and since the whole Egyptian/ Ra Sungod thing with him now puts it into question.

In the case of the Losties who are in 1977 now, will they not age and remain their "crash age" until they catch back up to themselves in 2005?

I ask this because the whole question came to mind last night as I was watching Life on Mars after Lost. The main character goes from 2008 to 1973 and has a soulmate of sorts in 1973 that is Annie played by Gretchen Mole. She is the only one who he shares his secret with fully and he told her last night that if and when he goes back to 2008 he will find her and take her to eat sushi, and to all these places. If it happens she will have aged, but he would not have.

So the question remains, will the time travelers age between 1977 and the date they came to the island in 2005?

As far as Richard goes using this theroy he would have had to come from farther in the future (2020?) and gone waaaaaay back in time, but that would explain why he has never aged.

I think Richard is the only one so far that doesn't age. I have no idea why he doesn't age - maybe he is a spirit like Christian, a manifestation of smokie, or a type of immortal god, or maybe he just drank from the fountain of youth as a child. Who Knows??

But I dont think the losties or anyone else is not aging. If the losties stay on the island, survive the purge, and are still there in 2004 when they crash - there will be two sets or losties. The ones from the 70's will continue to age. Therefore Sawyer would be in his 70's. And Sawyer would also crash on the island still in his 30's.

But I personally dont think the writers are going to do two sets. That would be too Scooby-dooish.

 

[brerrabbit]

I think Richard is the only one so far that doesn't age. I have no idea why he doesn't age - maybe he is a spirit like Christian, a manifestation of smokie, or a type of immortal god, or maybe he just drank from the fountain of youth as a child. Who Knows??

But I dont think the losties or anyone else is not aging. If the losties stay on the island, survive the purge, and are still there in 2004 when they crash - there will be two sets or losties. The ones from the 70's will continue to age. Therefore Sawyer would be in his 70's. And Sawyer would also crash on the island still in his 30's.

But I personally dont think the writers are going to do two sets. That would be too Scooby-dooish.

I agree that it would be strange, but lets not forget how upset Dr Marvin Candles got when the two bunnies with the same number showed up in the same room at the same time while he was filming an orientation film for one of the stations. The only theroy of time travel I have ever seen deal with this was from the movie Timecop with Jan Claude Van Damme. The theroy was that the same person time traveling could not occupy the same space at the same time as their current time self. In other words when thinking in the fourth dimension (three dimension space plus time) if the same person or thing interscets then bad things happen. Could this be the origin of the "incident" he alludes to in some of the videos.

In Timecop they pushed the bad guy from the future into his past self and they melted into a puddle of goo.

 

[debraW76]

I agree that it would be strange, but lets not forget how upset Dr Marvin Candles got when the two bunnies with the same number showed up in the same room at the same time while he was filming an orientation film for one of the stations. The only theroy of time travel I have ever seen deal with this was from the movie Timecop with Jan Claude Van Damme. The theroy was that the same person time traveling could not occupy the same space at the same time as their current time self. In other words when thinking in the fourth dimension (three dimension space plus time) if the same person or thing interscets then bad things happen. Could this be the origin of the "incident" he alludes to in some of the videos.

In Timecop they pushed the bad guy from the future into his past self and they melted into a puddle of goo.

I totally forgot about the bunny thing with Chang! That is a very sound theory.

But I still don't think the writers are going to let Sawyer and gang remain on the island for 30 years. Maybe the 'incident' was reference to something happening in the 70's/80's? Maybe BEN found himself??? Or maybe Miles (I still think Miles was the baby born to Chang in the season premiere).

 

[Sk8Leigh]

So Horace and Amy's baby is Ethan; whoever predicted that was right!

Yeah, I was right after all! (I wasn't the one who actually thought of that. I just read what someone else said and thought it sounded right.)

Marty McFly's girlfriend/wife (was her name Jennifer?) came upon herself in the future in BttF2. I think they both fainted, and then Marty and the doc got the younger one out of there.

 

[Amy]

Think of it like this. To the losties they have already been in 2004. Let's take Sawyer's life for example

1969 - Sawyer was born
2004 -when the plane crashed he was about 35 years old.
Then all of the time shifts occur and he ends up in 1974 at age 35/36.
1977- Three years later he is 38/39 years old. Yet he is also 8 years old somewhere off the island.

So in 1977 you have an 8 year old Sawyer who will grow up to be a con artist and will take flight 815 and will crash on the island. And you also have a 35 year old Sawyer who is living on the island. To the 35 year old Sawyer he has already experienced the crash in 2004.

As Daniel said "What happened, happened"

The only way Sawyer can change him taking the flight is if he leaves the island, finds his 8 year old self and changes the actions of that Sawyer.

Does that make things clear as mud?

I just can't wrap my mind around that whole concept. Using your Sawyer example, there's only ONE Sawyer, right? But what happens say in 1977 if the older Sawyer (the one who went back in time) dies for whatever reason? What happens to the 8-yr-old Sawyer? Does he die immediately, or does he live until he's 35 and then die?

And like somebody else said - Dr. Candle got really upset when both time-travel bunnies were in the room at the same time. What happens if Sawyer DOES find himself in the past??

I have a feeling that this is one of those concepts that I'll never understand, and I'm just going to have to pretend to understand it and hope that one day it'll make sense.

 

[debraW76]

What about Ethan? He's my pick.

Congrats on getting that one right. I was convinced it was NOT Ethan. I was hoping Keamy or Karl.

The age still doesn't add up though. He was born in 1977.
He was 15 during the purge which he survived and became an "other"
He was 27 when 815 crashed and was already a skilled surgeon?

Doesn't add up. Also, how did he become a surgeon? Did he take online classes? Or did he travel to the mainland to attend college?

 

[Sk8Leigh]

I just can't wrap my mind around that whole concept. Using your Sawyer example, there's only ONE Sawyer, right? But what happens say in 1977 if the older Sawyer (the one who went back in time) dies for whatever reason? What happens to the 8-yr-old Sawyer? Does he die immediately, or does he live until he's 35 and then die?

No, there are two Sawyers in 1977, and they're independent of each other, unless they actually meet and interact.

 

[Sk8Leigh]

The age still doesn't add up though. He was born in 1977.
He was 15 during the purge which he survived and became an "other"
He was 27 when 815 crashed and was already a skilled surgeon?

There are a lot of age things that don't add up, like Charlotte. I think we're just going to have to go with it.

 

[GoodFairies]

I just can't wrap my mind around that whole concept. Using your Sawyer example, there's only ONE Sawyer, right? But what happens say in 1977 if the older Sawyer (the one who went back in time) dies for whatever reason? What happens to the 8-yr-old Sawyer? Does he die immediately, or does he live until he's 35 and then die?

And like somebody else said - Dr. Candle got really upset when both time-travel bunnies were in the room at the same time. What happens if Sawyer DOES find himself in the past??

I have a feeling that this is one of those concepts that I'll never understand, and I'm just going to have to pretend to understand it and hope that one day it'll make sense.

I'm right there with you. I do not understand at all. Time travel confuses me and the little bit I do understand about it is being completely distorted by the Lost writers into what they must "need" it to be .

Since little Ben showed up in 1977 last night and since he is also present in 2007, this shows us that he can exist in both timelines. That means others can exist in both timelines, which I didn't know (or get) before last night.

So 8 year old Sawyer is doing his 8 year old thing. Meanwhile 35 year old Sawyer is "landed" in 1977 as his 35 year old self. So both are existing, just in different timelines.

Now, if the writers said that "this is how things always happened" what does that mean? Does it mean they are all stuck in a time loop? I'm so confused.

 

[TheZue]

The ages aren't going to line up for people on the island. The time isn't the same. When Desmond and Sayiid went out to the freighter on the helicopter it took them like an hour, but on the island they were gone for days and Jack was frantically trying to get ahold of them. The island time doesn't line up to regular time...For all we know it could speed up AND slow down at any given time. So for anyone born or growing up on the island I'm guessing that they aren't going to age as if they were off of the island.

 

[TheZue]

Now, if the writers said that "this is how things always happened" what does that mean? Does it mean they are all stuck in a time loop? I'm so confused.

I think it means that there is a sense of fate in the story, and the fact that they are back in 1977 is how it always was. We just weren't shown; other than Daniel working in the Orchid construction.

 

[GoodFairies]

But to say "this is how things always happened" is a fallacy because it is the present, not the past. Obviously this is not how things happened in all 1977s because in at least one 1977 Sawyer was 8 years old. Or A Sawyer was 8 years old.

Man I am getting some strong King vibes.

 

[TheZue]

But to say "this is how things always happened" is a fallacy because it is the present, not the past. Obviously this is not how things happened in all 1977s because in at least one 1977 Sawyer was 8 years old. Or A Sawyer was 8 years old.

Man I am getting some strong King vibes.

No no, there are TWO sawyers in 1977. One on the island who got booted back in time, and one who is just growing up and will later crash. They are both there. The 8 year is doomed to crash and getting moved back to 1977 because his future self is in 1977 with him now. I think that's what they mean by "this is how things always happened", we just didn't see them in the flash backs but they were always there as well as their non jumping younger selves, if they were born yet, are where ever they are/were elsewhere in the world.

Remember when Desmond tried to change the course of his relationship with Penny and he couldn't? And how Charlie was doomed to die? no matter what they do in 1977 they won't change the course of the future. Just like how Daniel tried to scare Charlotte, instead of her not coming back to the Island and him changing the course of the timeline she just remembered that he was there in the 1970s. So their jump hasn't changed the timeline either or moved them to another dimension, it was a predetermined part of it.

 

[debraW76]

Now, if the writers said that "this is how things always happened" what does that mean? Does it mean they are all stuck in a time loop? I'm so confused.

But to say "this is how things always happened" is a fallacy because it is the present, not the past. Obviously this is not how things happened in all 1977s because in at least one 1977 Sawyer was 8 years old. Or A Sawyer was 8 years old.

Man I am getting some strong King vibes.

I hope I can explain this right.

When they say "what happened, happened" what they are saying is that it already happened and they can't change it.

Remember when the losties first came across Amy with the two hostiles? Miles asked Daniel if they could get involved and Daniel responded that it doesn't matter. What happened happened.

What he meant was that 1974 occurance had already happened - they just hadn't experienced it yet. From Amy's point of view looking back in time she would have already experienced being saved by Sawyer.

Therefore Daniel said it doesn't matter meaning they would choose what has already been done. Since Sawyer saved Amy in Amy's 1974 then he would save her when he experienced 1974 just the same way it had already happened.

Did I muddy the water some more?

 

[GoodFairies]

No no, there are TWO sawyers in 1977. One on the island who got booted back in time, and one who is just growing up and will later crash. They are both there. The 8 year is doomed to crash and getting moved back to 1977 because his future self is in 1977 with him now. I think that's what they mean by "this is how things always happened", we just didn't see them in the flash backs but they were always there as well as their non jumping younger selves, if they were born yet, are where ever they are/were elsewhere in the world.

I think that's what I wrote? Right? About the Sawyers I mean.


I just meant it's a fallacy to say "this is how things always happened" in 1977 when it IS presently 1977, there anyway. Is it definitely 1977 off the island?

 

[TheZue]

I hope I can explain this right.

When they say "what happened, happened" what they are saying is that it already happened and they can't change it.

Remember when the losties first came across Amy with the two hostiles? Miles asked Daniel if they could get involved and Daniel responded that it doesn't matter. What happened happened.

What he meant was that 1974 occurance had already happened - they just hadn't experienced it yet. From Amy's point of view looking back in time she would have already experienced being saved by Sawyer.

Therefore Daniel said it doesn't matter meaning they would choose what has already been done. Since Sawyer saved Amy in Amy's 1974 then he would save her when he experienced 1974 just the same way it had already happened.

Did I muddy the water some more?

That's how I see it too. I don't think Lost is going to get into parodoxes at all (No Mr. I'm my own Grandfather like Fry in Futurama). We are just experiencing the timeline through the eyes of people who are bouncing around, but everything we will see did happen in 1977 already.

 

[TheZue]

I think that's what I wrote? Right? About the Sawyers I mean.


I just meant it's a fallacy to say "this is how things always happened" in 1977 when it IS presently 1977, there anyway. Is it definitely 1977 off the island?

I would think if they left on the subs when they got there they would have been in 1974 (since it was three years earlier) off the island too. From our outlook as the view in 2009 it is the past we are watching. Time travel is confusing with time tenses I think all they really meant is they won't be affecting the events of the timeline by going to 1977.

 

[Amy]

No no, there are TWO sawyers in 1977. One on the island who got booted back in time, and one who is just growing up and will later crash. They are both there. The 8 year is doomed to crash and getting moved back to 1977 because his future self is in 1977 with him now. I think that's what they mean by "this is how things always happened", we just didn't see them in the flash backs but they were always there as well as their non jumping younger selves, if they were born yet, are where ever they are/were elsewhere in the world.

Ok, so Sawyer will never grow old and gray....whichever Sawyer we're talking about only makes it to age 35 and crashes on the island and goes back in time. Is that right?

Now all this "what happened, happened" stuff....wasn't there a FIRST time for 1977? I mean, at one point there had to be just ONE Sawyer in existence, the young Sawyer who was just growing up for the very first time. He had to go from birth to age 35 so he could crash and go back to 1977 and start the whole never-ending circle, right? So during that initial period there was only one Sawyer?

I'm sorry to be so dense, but I'm just trying to understand this whole thing.