The nutters in CA who chained up 13 kids...

[cabanafrau]

The grandparents saw what they wanted to see in my opinion. . . . plenty of evidence that things were not right.

Plenty of evidence to see things were not right, if they care to be forthright and truthful. Let grandma keep talking. It increases the likelihood of prosecutors having more to work with to insure that justice happens -- and provides reasons for the courts to deviate from kinship placements of minor children.

 

[tzolkin]

I agree somewhat. She saw them on vacation at Disneyland and not in their home. The extreme thinness of the kids (as shown in the DL photos) should still have started some alarm bells in their minds.

The article posted above has the grandparents quoted as saying they spent 5 days with them in their (previous) home.

It’s possible the grandparents are good people who were sadly oblivious to what was going on. But, I think it’s likely the father learned his abusive behavior during his own childhood. Probably not to this level, but there definitely may have been something “off” with the grandparents’ methods of parenting.

 

[goodeats]

The press conference prosecutor made it sound like an escalating situation. Maybe a few years ago when they went to Disneyland it wasn't that bad.

It's all so Flowers in the Attic - the mother was leading a double life (eating pizza, raising her toddler "normally") while the 12 other kids were tortured and starved. Ugh, the toys kept wrapped and the pies on the counter - this is truly sick.

 

[AppleDumpling]

Here’s the photo I referred to upthread. I’m presuming that’s the grandparents in the upper left corner. So sad in hindsight to see them all smiling.

I find it odd that caring grandparents would not be distressed at the children’s physical appearance and disposition, after spending a day or even a few hours with them. If you haven’t seen your GC in a long time, wouldn’t you be conversing with them and asking them about what’s going on in their lives? Were there no signs of trouble in paradise? Like pp said, they must’ve either been in denial or else very naive.

 

[morgan98]

The article posted above has the grandparents quoted as saying they spent 5 days with them in their (previous) home.

It’s possible the grandparents are good people who were sadly oblivious to what was going on. But, I think it’s likely the father learned his abusive behavior during his own childhood. Probably not to this level, but there definitely may have been something “off” with the grandparents’ methods of parenting.

Well, I am not trying to derail this thread and I am not blaming religion, but the grandma seems to think the most important thing she did with her son was make him go to church. There is much more to raising a child into a productive, responsible, compassionate adult than stressing how much the person went to church.

 

[Mizzoufan]

I read that one of the boys was taking a college courses and that mom would take him and pick him up. I'm shocked he was given so much freedom.

 

[cabanafrau]

I have the hardest time understanding how they were able to go to Vegas and Disneyland. One of the linked articles said some of the kids didn’t know what a police officer was and one said they froze when a neighbor tried to talk to them...but Disney can be absolutely overwhelming for even neurotypicsl kids who are raised in normal situations. I can’t imagine how 12 kids, some with cognitive issues, that are chained to beds for weeks and only shower once a year we’re able to walk around and ride attractions without absolutely melting down. They should have been shying away from other people and afraid of contact, but you are crammed into lines with strangers and I’m sure people made friendly comments about the size of their family.

And why weren’t the parents petrified that one of the kids would tell another adult that they were chained up at home or hadn’t eaten. Especially the little ones or cognitively impaired kids. You can’t control what they say and it would be so easy for one of them to blurt something out.

It seems so incredibly off that they are smiling in Vegas and Disney without any outward, even subconscious body language, sign that they were being tortured. Am I the only one confused by that?

I'm skeptical of the reports filtering out about supposedly strange things neighbors saw and heard and wouldn't use those as a basis for anything.

Can visiting Disney be over-stimulating? Absolutely. I don't think the experience of visiting Disney anywhere approaches what the experience of being held in captivity and tortured and suddenly having the police show up and being removed from your home under no doubt chaotic circumstances, only to walk outside and no doubt find neighbors gathered to see what's going on and others peeking out their windows, all attention on you. At Disney they may have been out in public in a stimulating environment, but they weren't the focus of everyone's attention.

 

[starry_solo]

Facebook Live video from Riverside County District Attorney's Office press conference (from ABC 7 Eyewitness News in Los Angeles):

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155203330802452

 

[morgan98]

After seeing the clips of that news conference, I don't even know why we are going to waste a dollar on a trial for these two or any money keeping them in jail, providing a public defender, etc.

 

[robinb]

The article posted above has the grandparents quoted as saying they spent 5 days with them in their (previous) home.

It’s possible the grandparents are good people who were sadly oblivious to what was going on. But, I think it’s likely the father learned his abusive behavior during his own childhood. Probably not to this level, but there definitely may have been something “off” with the grandparents’ methods of parenting.

Thanks, I missed that. Apparently the abuse started in TX so I'm surprised that they were able to hide it for 5 days from the grandparents. Perhaps the kids were told to be on their best behaviour or they would be "punished".

More about their home in Texas:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...in-kids-says-family-left-kitten-dumpster.html

 

[gotomu212]

I'm skeptical of the reports filtering out about supposedly strange things neighbors saw and heard and wouldn't use those as a basis for anything.

Can visiting Disney be over-stimulating? Absolutely. I don't think the experience of visiting Disney anywhere approaches what the experience of being held in captivity and tortured and suddenly having the police show up and being removed from your home under no doubt chaotic circumstances, only to walk outside and no doubt find neighbors gathered to see what's going on and others peeking out their windows, all attention on you. At Disney they may have been out in public in a stimulating environment, but they weren't the focus of everyone's attention.

I don’t disagree with you, my only point is how do you go from being chained, starved, beaten, kept filthy (all according to the DA) to walking down Main Street Disneyland? I meant how can kids kept in such torture function in a crowd at Disney or Vegas? I wonder how those trips were even possible. The kids look extremely stunted and underfed in the pictures, but they are smiling and not panicked. I would have assumed that it would have been like crash landing on Mars to visit a theme park when your day to day life is as described and they would have been cowering.

It’s so hard for me to reconcile that’s all.

 

[Imzadi]

I'm sure being an Elvis impersonator in Vegas he has seen much stranger things.

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

The Elvis vow renewals, though, don't fit in w/ the "large family/quiver-full" lifestyle that has been made infamous by the Duggar clan & just add to the bizarre-ness of the whole thing.

Maybe they were also some type of reward to the wife. That she was being such a good wife & mother, that she gets to have their marriage renewed over and over and over again. If they were both keeping all the kids stunted and "kids" not able to grow up, then it kind of makes sense that their marriage starts over, "like new" again and again. Like the lyrics in Madonna's "Like A Virgin," song, "Touched for the very first time. . ."

 

[Mizzoufan]

I hope when the younger kids get out of the hospital they can find a way to keep them all together in foster care. I"m not sure if that"s possible but I think they need to be kept together

 

[Imzadi]

Disney trips where she was not present, yet understood and accepted accounts that they walked together in a line, with the parents at front and back to keep an eye on everyone. If the comment is genuinely what she said and applies to visits let's say within the last ten years -- she didn't find it odd or question why the eldest children would need to walk in a line?

Instead I came across the same things I saw yesterday, which was what made me wonder about her telling how they walked in a line while visiting Disney. Since she wasn't there it had to have been related to her if we're to believe she made the comment to the press. That's a weird thing to include when telling grandparents about a family visit to Disney.

That description of the kids all walking in line sounds like what the kids in The Sound of Music had to do. Remember, they also had to line up, answer to individual whistle calls, take one step forward, give their name & step back. While that was odd, people dismissed it as an extremely disciplined father who was in the military. While that was only a musical based on a real life family and we don't know if the real Capt. von Trapp did that to his kids, some people take what happens in the movies & TV as real stuff to copy & emulate.

The grandmother and people watching that happen at Disney may think it was just a very disciplined family like the von Trapps.

 

[cabanafrau]

I hope when the younger kids get out of the hospital they can find a way to keep them all together in foster care. I"m not sure if that"s possible but I think they need to be kept together

I'm sure it will be a priority. The hiccup may be more specialized needs than it is numbers. I have seen those kinds of situations worked out by placing with foster families who are related to one another, or experienced foster families who are committed to working closely with the other families to keep the sibling bond as strong as possible, despite living in different homes.

 

[cabanafrau]

That description of the kids all walking in line sounds like what the kids in The Sound of Music had to do. Remember, they also had to line up, answer to individual whistle calls, take one step forward, give their name & step back. While that was odd, people dismissed it as an extremely disciplined father who was in the military. While that was only a musical based on a real life family and we don't know if the real Capt. von Trapp did that to his kids, some people take what happens in the movies & TV as real stuff to copy & emulate.

The grandmother and people watching that happen at Disney may think it was just a very disciplined family like the von Trapps.

The grandparents knew many of the "children" were in their twenties and thought they were simply witnessing a very disciplined family? To my knowledge the father had not been in the military. Presumably his parents would realize he had no military background. I don't find it credible that they would assume he was emulating TV or the movies and that was A-OK either.

Keep spilling the tea, Grandma. I'm not convinced yet, but I will listen intently to every word.

 

[Imzadi]

I don’t disagree with you, my only point is how do you go from being chained, starved, beaten, kept filthy (all according to the DA) to walking down Main Street Disneyland? I meant how can kids kept in such torture function in a crowd at Disney or Vegas? I wonder how those trips were even possible. The kids look extremely stunted and underfed in the pictures, but they are smiling and not panicked. I would have assumed that it would have been like crash landing on Mars to visit a theme park when your day to day life is as described and they would have been cowering.

It’s so hard for me to reconcile that’s all.

Those trips to Disney were probably the reward for behaving and not escaping. OR they were the rewards for not getting a beating. Husbands who abuse do stuff like that all the time. They make it seem like the wife did something to DESERVE to get beaten. Or that she did something to MAKE him beat her. Then after the beating, he's all lovey and contrite at having to have done that and buys her a car. Or he rewards her for NOT doing something in which she'd deserve another beating - like take her to DL. AND THAT'S WHY SHE STAYS. "He must really love me after all to buy me a car or take me to DL." It's so messed up. He gets it in her head that being treated well or decently as a human being isn't a natural thing to be expected. It's a reward.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

I don’t disagree with you, my only point is how do you go from being chained, starved, beaten, kept filthy (all according to the DA) to walking down Main Street Disneyland? I meant how can kids kept in such torture function in a crowd at Disney or Vegas? I wonder how those trips were even possible. The kids look extremely stunted and underfed in the pictures, but they are smiling and not panicked. I would have assumed that it would have been like crash landing on Mars to visit a theme park when your day to day life is as described and they would have been cowering.

It’s so hard for me to reconcile that’s all.

It's because, above all, they knew better than to anger their parents. They would never act a fool in public, try to make an escape, tip off someone to the abuse, not smile for the camera, or do anything at all that would risk them becoming the focus of their parents' wrath. When you live in fear of someone, you do everything in your power not to upset the apple cart. Yes, they thought about escaping, but if they attempted an escape and failed they knew their life would get so much worse as a result. Fear kept them toeing the line.

 

[Imzadi]

The grandparents knew many of the "children" were in their twenties and thought they were simply witnessing a very disciplined family? To my knowledge the father had not been in the military. Presumably his parents would realize he had no military background. I don't find it credible that they would assume he was emulating TV or the movies and that was A-OK either.

Keep spilling the tea, Grandma. I'm not convinced yet, but I will listen intently to every word.

No, but he was "religious." That word covers a lot of ground. Especially, as you said, when Granny really didn't want to see the truth. "He's very religious, so the kids walk in a straight line, out of respect [not fear, or in case they may escape into the crowd & run away."]

 

[cabanafrau]

It's because, above all, they knew better than to anger their parents. They would never act a fool in public, try to make an escape, tip off someone to the abuse, not smile for the camera, or do anything at all that would risk them becoming the focus of their parents' wrath. When you live in fear of someone, you do everything in your power not to upset the apple cart. Yes, they thought about escaping, but if they attempted an escape and failed they knew their life would get so much worse as a result. Fear kept them toeing the line.

It makes my insides feel like both concrete and pudding thinking how in fear they probably were.

No, but he was "religious." That word covers a lot of ground. Especially, as you said, when Granny really didn't want to see the truth. "He's very religious, so the kids walk in a straight line, out of respect [not fear, or in case they may escape into the crowd & run away."]

I understand quite well that this situation has nothing whatsoever to do with religion in the slightest.