The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[NewJersey]

To the talk of "smugness" - do you honestly think Hillary supporters wouldn't be upset if Obama was attacking Hillary/praising McCain and do you think you wouldn't want Obama to quit if his chances were as slim as Hillary's?

She is doing nothing but hurting the party.

 

[WildernessBride]

She is doing nothing but hurting the party.

That what I have been shaking my head and saying each time I watch election coverage. To me this is a fiasco, Hillary is not doing anything at all positive for her future political career by trying to get her own way. What gets to me is hearing a fellow party members trashing other and being nice or just ignoring the true competetion, the Republican!!!!. The DNC cannot make party members believe for one second that this is good for the party, because anyone with two eyes sees that this is dividing the Dems into two camps, each becoming more snippy each day. Instead of taking the high road, working on re-uniting the party, no-one in the party will do anything but let this mess roll on till June and by then there will no issues to differ on, only attacks and smears galore. The best thing Hillary could do would be realize that her goal is next to impossible and begin working on the healing in time for November. But that obviously is not part of her Tanya Harding Option.

 

[lilyv]

That what I have been shaking my head and saying each time I watch election coverage. To me this is a fiasco, Hillary is not doing anything at all positive for her future political career by trying to get her own way. What gets to me is hearing a fellow party members trashing other and being nice or just ignoring the true competetion, the Republican!!!!. The DNC cannot make party members believe for one second that this is good for the party, because anyone with two eyes sees that this is dividing the Dems into two camps, each becoming more snippy each day. Instead of taking the high road, working on re-uniting the party, no-one in the party will do anything but let this mess roll on till June and by then there will no issues to differ on, only attacks and smears galore. The best thing Hillary could do would be realize that her goal is next to impossible and begin working on the healing in time for November. But that obviously is not part of her Tanya Harding Option.

I've never thought she was the political brain in the family, anyway. She's a very smart policy wonk. Why Bill doesn't run the numbers and explain things to her, I'll never know. Dragging this out is awful for her future, and devastating to his legacy. They really don't want to be known in perpetuity as Mr. And Mrs. Tanya Harding....

 

[Planogirl]

Ya know - I've stayed out of this fight for the most part - but I am going to STRONGLY disagree with you on this one. The only Clinton supporter I haven't seen whining is Robin. The rest of "you" are to busy complaining about BO to realize that your own candidate screwed up. Tiem to grow up people - you can't blame everyone else because your candidate had a crappy campaign.

~Amanda

Oh, I whine about BO? I'm glad that I still like him because I'm not too thrilled with many of his supporters right now. Yes, she screwed up - we get it, we know and thanks for going on and on about it.

Now could we please get to working this out and trying to win this campaign?

 

[Chloe'sMom]

My point is that so many people "expect" the tone of a Presidential Nominating process to be civil...when they never have been.

My point is that this nomination process is probably more civil than many have been & more civil than it SHOULD have been. Had it been more "freewheeling", then we would have:

- heard about the Pastor videos in November instead of two weeks ago.
- held HC accountable for her vote to prosecute the war. Examine it. Rip the scab off of it.
- held HC & BO accountable for their vote to FUND the war...all of them....all for political reasons.
- held them both accountable for their positions on the mortgage crisis, for their ignorance on the issue (& of their scapegoating of brokers,), when if fact they (the federal govt.) were PART of the problem by offering 100% loans to folks in appreciating value areas that had no business entering into a mort. contract. (Lots of villians here...including realtors, builders, developers, Bank CEOs & of course the Wall St. syndicates who bought & packaged the loans). & for offering bogus solutions.

Neither they, or the news media (or we) have addressed these & other issues aggressively. Everyone has been polite. Even the supposed pit bulls (Mathews & Olbermann) are getting all emotional & are turning into Limbaughesque entertainers.

I wish Edwards & Kucinich (sp) were still in the race, at least those two weren't so sensitive to everyones "feelings" (& didn't give a d*mn how the "need a headline a day" news media would play it) & they weren't afraid to call b*llsh*t on opponents when it was warranted.

As I work for a mortgage company - I'll counter to the part I bolded.

As much as I would love to hold politicians and everyone else accountable for the mortgage crisis - the number one person responsible for this is those who took out loans they couldn't afford. It is a major epedimic of keeping up with the Jones' that caused people to take on more then they knew they could afford. There is absolutely no way I think the government should be spending money to bail anyone out. Those people had everything in writing - they ignored it. And the ignorance hasn't stopped. I had a guy call me up today with a $300,000 + mortgage and couldn't figure out WHY I couldn't get him a payment of less then $1500.00 a month. So he is going to keep his Neg Am loan Politicians can't be held responsible for stupidity.

~Amanda

 

[Chloe'sMom]

You are a tool. Plain and simple.

FYI - I reported your post. Name calling is unacceptable.

~amanda

 

[robinb]

FYI - I reported your post. Name calling is unacceptable.

Um ... I thought it was a joke. Wasn't it?

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Um ... I thought it was a joke. Wasn't it?

Was it? seemed kinda mean to me. Now I'm confused.

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Oh, I whine about BO? I'm glad that I still like him because I'm not too thrilled with many of his supporters right now. Yes, she screwed up - we get it, we know and thanks for going on and on about it.

Now could we please get to working this out and trying to win this campaign?

As I said somewhere else - I apologize. Honestly I have nothing but respect for both you and Robin. There are only a few Clinton supporters that my remark was directed at - you are not one of them.

~Amanda

 

[robinb]

Was it? seemed kinda mean to me. Now I'm confused.

I could be the one that's confused. I can't even tell from Hound's reply now if he was offended or not. Sheesh. Thank goodness something mindless like Top Chef is on tonight .

 

[Charade]

Rough crowd today.

That's saying something coming from you!

 

[LuvDuke]

That's saying something coming from you!

No joke.

 

[LuvDuke]

You have been singing that song for a long time . The fact is that neither candidate can win without the Super Delegates. It's really that close.

Are you really saying "Hillary is tearing apart the party!" in one breath and "We need to get Hillary to drop out by any means!" in the next? The jumping on mistakes and constant crowing on both sides is what is tearing the party apart. As for the party "healing itself" I have to wonder about the sincerity of that thought when you say that you will not vote for the Democratic candidate if it's Hillary. What kind of healing is that? Are the Clinton supporters the only ones who need to "come to Jesus"?

Actually, it's not close at all. Hillary has no chance of catching up to Obama even if she wins every primary from here on end. And win big. Statistically, it isn't going to happen. The gyrations that would have to be done for her to come out as the nominee are staggering.

But, it isn't the fact that she's still in the race given the odds. She has every right to stay in. What she doesn't have the right to do is the "kitchen sink" approach. They could both argue policy until the end of the primary season. They could argue the merits of their healthcare plan or economic plan. That would be a dream world. But, that won't get her the nomination.

To get that, she has convinced herself she needs to tear him down. She appears to believe, by making him small, she makes herself big. She's tearing herself down. And forcing too many Democrats to make a choice they really don't want to make. Her scorched earth policy is hurting the party and pitting Democrat against Democrat.

And she still has no chance of beating him fair and square. She will leave a fractured party at each other's throats. This is not politics. This is blind ambition. I could not imagine John Edwards or Christopher Dodd or Bill Richardson doing what she is doing.

 

[Planogirl]

As I said somewhere else - I apologize. Honestly I have nothing but respect for both you and Robin. There are only a few Clinton supporters that my remark was directed at - you are not one of them.

~Amanda

I understand.

To those who say that Hillary is fracturing the party, did you ever consider that the supporters on both sides are doing most of the harm? I'm afraid that Hillary quitting now will cause an even bigger rift because there are still devoted Hillary fans out there who don't want her to quit. I worry that the harm is done and will only get worse if Obama's side tries to force her to quit.

That said, I don't know what the solution is.

 

[Planogirl]

Actually, it's not close at all. Hillary has no chance of catching up to Obama even if she wins every primary from here on end. And win big. Statistically, it isn't going to happen. The gyrations that would have to be done for her to come out as the nominee are staggering.

But, it isn't the fact that she's still in the race given the odds. She has every right to stay in. What she doesn't have the right to do is the "kitchen sink" approach. They could both argue policy until the end of the primary season. They could argue the merits of their healthcare plan or economic plan. That would be a dream world. But, that won't get her the nomination.

To get that, she has convinced herself she needs to tear him down. She appears to believe, by making him small, she makes herself big. She's tearing herself down. And forcing too many Democrats to make a choice they really don't want to make. Her scorched earth policy is hurting the party and pitting Democrat against Democrat.

And she still has no chance of beating him fair and square. She will leave a fractured party at each other's throats. This is not politics. This is blind ambition. I could not imagine John Edwards or Christopher Dodd or Bill Richardson doing what she is doing.

I've seen this kind of politics before and I've seen it often. I'm not saying I like it but it's certainly not new.

Does anyone know of a situation where two potential candidates were so close in the past? I wonder if it's happened before and how the party handled it.

 

[robinb]

To those who say that Hillary is fracturing the party, did you ever consider that the supporters on both sides are doing most of the harm?

That is my belief. Honestly, I don't see Hillary with a "scorched earth" or the ever popular "Tonya Harding" policy. I see the supporters who have those policies. On both sides with each group doing their best to discredit the other side.

I'm afraid that Hillary quitting now will cause an even bigger rift because there are still devoted Hillary fans out there who don't want her to quit. I worry that the harm is done and will only get worse if Obama's side tries to force her to quit.

I do think there is a HUGE difference between stepping out and being forced out. No one wants their candidate forced out. No one wants to be patted on the head and be told that they can still eat with the family, but at the kids' table because there is no more room with the grown-ups. And that's the vibe that I get sometimes from Obama supporters and I am really not that seriously INVESTED in Hillary as others are. I can't even begin to think how they must feel.

That said, I don't know what the solution is.

I do: the Dream Ticket. I think Hillary's holding out for the VP and staying in the race is giving her bargaining power. Even with all the strife I think that most Dems would come together under an Obama/Clinton ticket and the two together would do a lot more to heal the party without half of us having to eat soggy corn dogs and dried up mac n cheese (sorry, a Top Chef reference ).

 

[Planogirl]

I do: the Dream Ticket. I think Hillary's holding out for the VP and staying in the race is giving her bargaining power. Even with all the strife I think that most Dems would come together under an Obama/Clinton ticket and the two together would do a lot more to heal the party without half of us having to eat soggy corn dogs and dried up mac n cheese (sorry, a Top Chef reference ).

Do you really believe that's still possible? I would be thrilled! They'd be unbeatable together wouldn't they?

 

[robinb]

Do you really believe that's still possible? I would be thrilled! They'd be unbeatable together wouldn't they?

I'm probably being naive but I have not given up hope. It's the one thing that helps me make sense of why Clinton is staying in the race against mounting odds.

 

[LuvDuke]

I understand.

To those who say that Hillary is fracturing the party, did you ever consider that the supporters on both sides are doing most of the harm? I'm afraid that Hillary quitting now will cause an even bigger rift because there are still devoted Hillary fans out there who don't want her to quit. I worry that the harm is done and will only get worse if Obama's side tries to force her to quit.

That said, I don't know what the solution is.

No one can force her to quit. But she has no chance of winning unless she makes Obama unelectable in the eyes of the SD's. It isn't as if she can win the next few primaries and even catch up on pledged delegates. She can't. She would have to win by an astronomical number and it isn't going to happen.

If Hillary left now, she would not be giving a viable candidacy. She cannot win by the numbers. What she would be giving up is 4 months of throwing the "kitchen sink" at Obama and hope some of it sticks. However, she also takes the risk of watching her own resume being picked apart and someone going over her "recollections" with a fine-toothed comb. Witness what happened with her Bosnia "recollections". She lied or she embellished the truth or she misspoke. I'm sure there's more where that came from.

She has nothing to gain. The SD's will not nominate her. I believe she has reached the point where she has thrown too many turds in that punchbowl. If Obama becomes unelectable, I believe the SD's will turn to another candidate and it won't be Hillary. If the SD's are going to go down, they'll go down fighting with another candidate just to humiliate Hillary. IMO, you cannot do what Hillary has done to a party and a process and expect to come out a hero.

 

[LuvDuke]

That is my belief. Honestly, I don't see Hillary with a "scorched earth" or the ever popular "Tonya Harding" policy. I see the supporters who have those policies. On both sides with each group doing their best to discredit the other side.

I do think there is a HUGE difference between stepping out and being forced out. No one wants their candidate forced out. No one wants to be patted on the head and be told that they can still eat with the family, but at the kids' table because there is no more room with the grown-ups. And that's the vibe that I get sometimes from Obama supporters and I am really not that seriously INVESTED in Hillary as others are. I can't even begin to think how they must feel.

I do: the Dream Ticket. I think Hillary's holding out for the VP and staying in the race is giving her bargaining power. Even with all the strife I think that most Dems would come together under an Obama/Clinton ticket and the two together would do a lot more to heal the party without half of us having to eat soggy corn dogs and dried up mac n cheese (sorry, a Top Chef reference ).

I think the Dream Ticket ought to be renamed the Fantasy Ticket. It won't happen. You cannot do to the presidential candidate what Hillary has done and expect them to want you by their side. LBJ and JFK loathed each other. They did not run the campaign Hillary has run against Obama.

The Dream Ticket will not happen. Hillary has poisoned that well. I believe she has even poisoned the well with the SD's who would like nothing more than to deal the death blow to her candidacy and send her packing.