The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[Laura]

I thought I had the clincher with the 'He will eat your young" thought! I tried!

You almost had me on that one!

 

[punkin]

To me, the biggest problem with Kerry was that it appeared those supporting him had more fight in them then he did. There was a lesson to be learned with the 2004 election.

I don't think we have that problem this year with either Democratic candidate. Hillary will fight tooth and nail and I think Obama is a close second. Neither candidate is Kerry-esque in that way. However, I still don't like the idea of voting for someone because of the "hate" on the other side. Obama and Hillary are both supremely electable against McCain IMO. Based on the issues and experience alone, I still favor Hillary.

 

[Honu]

Since the Florida and Michigan delegates aren't being counted, shouldn't the number of delegates needed to win be decreased? Isn't that 2025 number based on winning half the delegates?

 

[eclectics]

You say there are plenty out there, well who are they? And I'm not asking to be a smart ***. I'm curious, that's all. Lieberman was mentioned. He had slipped my mind. But I could see how he could be considered a conservative dem. But who else, on a national level, could be brought up?

As for left leaning reps, I don't know. Some people think McCain is. But I don't really agree with that. Maybe I should ask this question on the "other" thread.

Who are they? I know quite a few personally. As for Washington examples, just read up on Blue Dog Democrats.

Also not trying to be a smart mouth, but it seems to me the the Democrats are a little more tolerant these days of variations in the party line. Just look at the teeth gnashing you guys are having over McCain because he doesn't quite fit the "Conservative" mold definition. Seems to me that any Republican who doesn't quite toe the right wing line is tossed out on his keister. Both parties have to make room for the "different drummers" and it's the Democrats who are more accepting, imho. As I said, classic old school Republicans who happen to support progressive social issues along with fiscal conservatism have absolutely no place in todays Republican party. And that's a shame.

Edited to add; I see on your thread that Bet mentioned Specter as a "Liberal" Republican. I beg to differ. He's a moderate, imo. However, he is the closest thing you've got to an old school Repub.

 

[punkin]

Who are they? I know quite a few personally. As for Washington examples, just read up on Blue Dog Democrats.

Also not trying to be a smart mouth, but it seems to me the the Democrats are a little more tolerant these days of variations in the party line. Just look at the teeth gnashing you guys are having over McCain because he doesn't quite fit the "Conservative" mold definition. Seems to me that any Republican who doesn't quite toe the right wing line is tossed out on his keister. Both parties have to make room for the "different drummers" and it's the Democrats who are more accepting, imho. As I said, classic old school Republicans who happen to support progressive social issues along with fiscal conservatism have absolutely no place in todays Republican party. And that's a shame.

I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I do not care who gets married to whom. I believe there is a place for government in providing a safety net for people down on their luck, not corporations making record profits. I also think that a government that can't pay for its programs, better cut some of them. I believe in a more environmentally sound energy policy, but not at the expense of the economy as a whole. I believe in some regulation of the market, but on a far more limited scale than most democrats because some greed is good, but excessive greed interferes with the creation of efficient and transparent markets.

I do not like the economic policy proposals put forth by either Barak or Hillary, but I am willing to overlook that for now.

Don't get me started on the war.

See, in prior years, I may well have been a Republican. However, their right wing religious agenda scares me and I cannot look at any candidate pandering to the religious right.

 

[DISUNC]

Since the Florida and Michigan delegates aren't being counted, shouldn't the number of delegates needed to win be decreased? Isn't that 2025 number based on winning half the delegates?

Good question!!!!!!!

Is it "official" that they are not counting them?

 

[LuvDuke]

My best guess is the Michigan and Florida primaries will be do-overs. I doubt if they'll be primary elections, but maybe caucuses.

Unless, of course, the DNC opens their purse strings and sets up the election apparatus.

 

[wvrevy]

Now, here's a question for you. How many left leaning Republicans are there out there?...... I haven't heard of one since Jacob Javits and have never known one in real life.

Lincoln Chaffe (sp?) is a left-leaning republican, and has endorsed Barack Obama for president just this past week. From the Blogosphere, Andrew Sullivan is a nationally known conservative who has also endorsed Obama. Trust me, they may get shouted down by the right wingnuts, but they are out there.

As for the comments about this thread, I've been watching it without comment for the past few days, largely because of the whining about my "negativity" when it comes to Hillary Clinton. This despite the fact that the absolute worst thing I've said about her was that she was a divisive candidate on the national stage. A comment that has obviously proven true within our own party, if this thread is any indication.

I decided to join back in last night, because I will not be run off from a thread of which I was one of the founding members. I've been around the Dis for a long time, and been standing up to the neo-cons going way back before the Debate Board went away. After thinking about it, I simply decided that I'm not about to abandon the field because a few people who claim to be "on the same side" can't handle a few simple truths about their chosen candidate, and can't defend said candidate without getting personal about it.

So feel free to disagree with anything I post, but be prepared to back it up with something other than "he's being mean" nonsense. At this point, considering what is going on in Wisonsin right now with Hillary going negative, I don't think her supporters have a lot of that "high ground" to stand on. (I mean...how ridiculous is it to complain about not debating in Wisconsin when there have been 18 nationally televised debates, and two more scheduled in the next month?!? She's basically calling Obama "chicken" for not doing something he's already done 18 times. )

 

[eclectics]

See, in prior years, I may well have been a Republican. However, their right wing religious agenda scares me and I cannot look at any candidate pandering to the religious right.

I believe a very large portion of "Independents" are disgruntled former Republicans who tired of the ever growing religious right's influence on the party and their intolerance of any other point of view.

 

[DISUNC]

Has anybody seen the "school shooting...how long before we get it thread"?

I was "FOR SURE" it would be one of the infamous Everybody/Nobody should own gun threads, that are popular after every tragic event.

When I opened it I was SHOCKED to find out that the 'reason' all these kids died was because of "AntiDeppressants"!!!!!!!!!!! WTH!!!!!

So now its "Guns dont kill people, Antideppressants kill people"!!!!

 

[wvrevy]

My best guess is the Michigan and Florida primaries will be do-overs. I doubt if they'll be primary elections, but maybe caucuses.

Unless, of course, the DNC opens their purse strings and sets up the election apparatus.

That's the most likely scenario in my opinion, too. It's the only way they'll allow those delegates to be seated unless Hillary already has a big lead after the last primaries in May.

It's also the only way to save the Democratic Party, IMO. If HIllary is behind or if she has a very small lead and the party decides to count those delegates after setting up rules saying that they wouldn't, then the Party will be broken, possibly beyond repair. I know they won't see another red cent from me in that circumstance. They set up the rules, they need to live by them.

 

[eclectics]

Lincoln Chaffe (sp?) is a left-leaning republican, and has endorsed Barack Obama for president just this past week.

I see Specter and the retired Chaffee (actually an Independent as of last year) as more moderate than liberal, but they certainly are 'outside the mold', as it were.

 

[wvrevy]

So now its "Guns dont kill people, Antideppressants kill people"!!!!

Actually, "root cause analysis" would indicate that there is absolutely a case to be made that the person may have been better off before taking drugs that altered their brain chemistry. Put bluntly, without the drugs, he may have taken his own life. After taking the drugs and then going off, he decided to take as many people with him as he could.

I don't have any religious nonsense reason for objecting to the ridiculous overuse of these drugs in this country. My problem is that we really know so little about psychology that I don't know what kind of long-term psychological damage is being done to people that take these behavior-modifying medications.

As for guns...yeah, ban 'em all. Nobody needs a semi-automatic assault rifle, and handguns have only one ultimate purpose that couldn't be satisfied with a BB gun, and that is to kill another human being.

 

[eclectics]

My best guess is the Michigan and Florida primaries will be do-overs. I doubt if they'll be primary elections, but maybe caucuses.

Unless, of course, the DNC opens their purse strings and sets up the election apparatus.

Is that fair, do you think? The candidates won't have much time to prepare and campaign properly. I say let everyone learn from the mistakes made and safeguard that it won't happen again.

 

[punkin]

As for guns...yeah, ban 'em all. Nobody needs a semi-automatic assault rifle, and handguns have only one ultimate purpose that couldn't be satisfied with a BB gun, and that is to kill another human being.

I am amazed that you haven't been lynched yet in West-by-God-Virginny yet for holding unamerican views like that.

 

[punkin]

Is that fair, do you think? The candidates won't have much time to prepare and campaign properly. I say let everyone learn from the mistakes made and safeguard that it won't happen again.

and do what with the Florida and Michigan delegates? Clinton would sure like to see them seated and Obama would sure love it if they fell into a black hole.

 

[Fitswimmer]

and do what with the Florida and Michigan delegates? Clinton would sure like to see them seated and Obama would sure love it if they fell into a black hole.

Even though I like Hillary and will vote happily for her in November if she receives the nomination FAIRLY....I believe if the situation was reversed and it was Obama that needed Florida and Michigan to win we'd be hearing an awful lot from her about obeying the rules. Just because I like her it doesn't mean that I don't know who she'd operate.

 

[eclectics]

and do what with the Florida and Michigan delegates? Clinton would sure like to see them seated and Obama would sure love it if they fell into a black hole.

Exactly what was said would be done from the get go. They don't count. Regardless of who's fault it is and who's right and who's wrong (I'm not going to get into that argument again) that's what was said would happen and that's what should happen, imho. Period. Hopefully they can ensure that it will never happen again.

 

[Honu]

My best guess is the Michigan and Florida primaries will be do-overs. I doubt if they'll be primary elections, but maybe caucuses.

Unless, of course, the DNC opens their purse strings and sets up the election apparatus.

It really depends on how those rules read. I've only been able to find parts of the rules online.

If Florida and Michigan lost their delegates due to changing the election date, then a redo wouldn't matter. I doubt there is a do over clause in the rules. So for a do over they'd need to amend the rules during the process and that's a big snakepit.

Either way they go, there will likely be lawsuits. Unfortunately for the voters of Florida and Michigan, the DNC's legal liability is a lot less if they follow the rules as written and I think that's the way it will go.

 

[Tiziminchac]

Thanks for your reply eclectics. It's always so cut and dry with the reps being conservative and dems being liberals. I've never really given it much thought until recently. I really hope that we (as a country) can find a middle ground. America would be so much better if we could.