The Intersection of FIRE and Disney

[RamblingMad]

I am reading “The Simple Path to Wealth”by JL Collins and it is so straightforward and easy to understand.

And I have to say, he has reframed how I think about spending. I’ve always been a good saver. But here’s how to think about spending vs investing that might blow your mind:

Let’s say I opt to go to dinner with my husband and spend $100 (post-COVID). If instead I opted to invest that same $100, and allow it to grow for the next 27 years, that same $100 could be worth $1300. Knowing that, would I ask my husband if he wants to go out for a $1300 dinner tonight?????

Maybe $100 is an extreme for dinner for those on this forum, but multiplying any spend by 13 (your multiple will be different) really makes me ask myself if I want it badly enough. Could be $5.

Thinking about the lost opportunity cost through this lens has totally shifted how I think about spending.

But maybe you want to go out for that nice dinner to get away. There is a balancing act here. If you're going to go out for dinner, what do you want to get?

I love to cook, so if I think I can do just as well at home, I'll cook it at home. I never order scallops or crab legs anymore. I can easily cook both just as well at home.

For me the decision is: what can I get at a restaurant that I don't want to cook at home? For example, baking macarons takes a very long time. And I can't make them as good as I can buy them. Almond flour isn't cheap either. So I'll opt to buy them, rather than make them. Recently, I went out for fish and chips. I don't have a fryer at home, and it's not an investment I want to make.

I'm working on making a good bloomer loaf of bread based on Paul Hollywood's book. I haven't quite mastered it yet. I haven't figured out proofing yet. But I find the process enjoyable, and I will figure it out. The cost of bread flour, yeast, salt, oil, and water isn't that expensive to keep learning how to get it right.

So if you're going to spend $100 to go out for dinner, what do you want to get?

The other way to think of this is: what activities make you happy? Then, you can focus your money on those things. For me this is camping and hiking and traveling. My big NP trip for August is going to cost me $450 for lodging, which I'm splitting with other people plus food and gas.

 

[SouthFayetteFan]

Perhaps I already shared this here but I think this Reddit thread perfectly expresses how most should pursue FIRE, and sort of speaks to the recent comments here.

“Spend extravagantly on things you love, and cut mercilessly on things you don’t.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/l27w0g

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Mathematics/statistics isn't the driving force in many lives; whether good or bad is up for debate. I'm in the mental health field, and am also a religious person, so I understand the very real psychological forces that sway people (and can be used in one's advantage), and I also support specific Christian approaches to money management that changes advice given. Again, it's a personal choice.

I'm curious what "Christian approaches" you describe here that might not follow typical optimization? I'm familiar with tithing but is there other things beyond that?

Just trying to expand my worldview because I hadn't heard it mentioned that way in the past. Not looking to critique.

But maybe you want to go out for that nice dinner to get away. There is a balancing act here. If you're going to go out for dinner, what do you want to get?

I love to cook, so if I think I can do just as well at home, I'll cook it at home. I never order scallops or crab legs anymore. I can easily cook both just as well at home.

For me the decision is: what can I get at a restaurant that I don't want to cook at home? For example, baking macarons takes a very long time. And I can't make them as good as I can buy them. Almond flour isn't cheap either. So I'll opt to buy them, rather than make them. Recently, I went out for fish and chips. I don't have a fryer at home, and it's not an investment I want to make.

I'm working on making a good bloomer loaf of bread based on Paul Hollywood's book. I haven't quite mastered it yet. I haven't figured out proofing yet. But I find the process enjoyable, and I will figure it out. The cost of bread flour, yeast, salt, oil, and water isn't that expensive to keep learning how to get it right.

So if you're going to spend $100 to go out for dinner, what do you want to get?

The other way to think of this is: what activities make you happy? Then, you can focus your money on those things. For me this is camping and hiking and traveling. My big NP trip for August is going to cost me $450 for lodging, which I'm splitting with other people plus food and gas.

I think most people go too far with cutting expenses when they first enter the FI community but it's a good exercise as it shows them the things they really value. I know in our case, we took some very *ahem* optimized vacations early on along with cutting every monthly expense we could. Adding a bit more money on streaming services and vacations didn't change our trajectory much but the other 10 things we cut in that process and didn't add back in did.

Also, I feel like where in the FI process you are changes things a bit. When you have a negative NW and are trying to pay down debt $100 is a big deal. When you are 3/4s of the way to FI and your investment accounts move 4 figures on a daily basis? An infrequent $100 expense is a rounding error. (Yes, it increases your FI number very slightly but everyone works past that FI number anyways )

 

[SouthFayetteFan]

I think most people go too far with cutting expenses when they first enter the FI community but it's a good exercise as it shows them the things they really value. I know in our case, we took some very *ahem* optimized vacations early on along with cutting every monthly expense we could. Adding a bit more money on streaming services and vacations didn't change our trajectory much but the other 10 things we cut in that process and didn't add back in did.

Also, I feel like where in the FI process you are changes things a bit. When you have a negative NW and are trying to pay down debt $100 is a big deal. When you are 3/4s of the way to FI and your investment accounts move 4 figures on a daily basis? An infrequent $100 expense is a rounding error. (Yes, it increases your FI number very slightly but everyone works past that FI number anyways )

This is totally along the lines of what I’ve been pondering recently. I feel like there are stages of a FIRE journey. The first 1-2 years are different from years 3-5 and then I think things change a bit more as you progress beyond year 5. Those timelines could be different for each person but I’m definitely in the last stage now - similar to what you just described.

 

[Bobb_o]

I apparently have been following pretty close to a FIRE plan without even thinking about it. I've always tried to save a ton and not spend beyond my means.

I bought a DVC contract which probably isn't very FIRE of me but hey it's still an asset that has appreciated.

 

[RamblingMad]

I apparently have been following pretty close to a FIRE plan without even thinking about it. I've always tried to save a ton and not spend beyond my means.

I bought a DVC contract which probably isn't very FIRE of me but hey it's still an asset that has appreciated.

Nothing wrong with buying DVC if you can get the math to work. I can't. I'm a go to Disney whenever new attractions open, not every year or every other year. I'm also now a DL convert. I only go to FL for Universal. If you can make DVC work, then I can see how you can come out ahead moneywise if you go to Disney a lot.

 

[BridgetBordeaux]

FIRE related tidbit.

Our 1998 truck has saved us about $70,000.

We bought it Dec 1997

We paid if off in Dec 2000.

No payments for 20 years.....20x12x300bucks a month for a modest car payment= 72,000.

That 70,000 has been gradually invested in a 60/40 mutual fund over the past 20 years.

Someone else has to crunch the numbers on that one!

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Nothing wrong with buying DVC if you can get the math to work. I can't. I'm a go to Disney whenever new attractions open, not every year or every other year. I'm also now a DL convert. I only go to FL for Universal. If you can make DVC work, then I can see how you can come out ahead moneywise if you go to Disney a lot.

Yep. I've posted in this thread a few times that we're considering DVC soon as we plan to stay in deluxe resorts on trips with kids (we stayed offsite previously). The only way I can come close to stomaching those costs is through DVC.

 

[Mome Rath]

I'm curious what "Christian approaches" you describe here that might not follow typical optimization? I'm familiar with tithing but is there other things beyond that?

Just trying to expand my worldview because I hadn't heard it mentioned that way in the past. Not looking to critique.

There are certain teaching within some churches (not all, or maybe even most, for sure) that highly suggest you carry no debt due to certain scriptures (such as Proverbs 22:7 ...the borrower is servant to the lender, Proverbs 17:18, Matthew 6:24, Romans 13:8, etc...). An example of individual Christians against debt would be Dave Ramsey.

Mormonism has many teachings on debt (that are easy to find on the net such as avoid debt whenever possible, and if you take money for a modest house and schooling, pay it back ASAP), which has lead to things like Utah having the lowest student loan debt load in the country.

Finance and religion is actually really interesting to study, including religions that outlaw, or highly discourage interest (Islam comes to mind), the idea of usury and what to do about it, the idea of a Jubilee where all debt is forgiven, etc... So, in short, religious beliefs will impact an individuals' take on debt and paying it off, making it more than just a numbers game for some.

 

[RamblingMad]

There are certain teaching within some churches (not all, or maybe even most, for sure) that highly suggest you carry no debt due to certain scriptures (such as Proverbs 22:7 ...the borrower is servant to the lender, Proverbs 17:18, Matthew 6:24, Romans 13:8, etc...). An example of individual Christians against debt would be Dave Ramsey.

Mormonism has many teachings on debt (that are easy to find on the net such as avoid debt whenever possible, and if you take money for a modest house and schooling, pay it back ASAP), which has lead to things like Utah having the lowest student loan debt load in the country.

Finance and religion is actually really interesting to study, including religions that outlaw, or highly discourage interest (Islam comes to mind), the idea of usury and what to do about it, the idea of a Jubilee where all debt is forgiven, etc... So, in short, religious beliefs will impact an individuals' take on debt and paying it off, making it more than just a numbers game for some.

I knew someone a long time ago that had student debt, but she continued to tithe their church. This didn't make sense to me.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I knew someone a long time ago that had student debt, but she continued to tithe their church. This didn't make sense to me.

It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me. If you believe in tithing, well, then you tithe. Even if you don't make much, even if you have debt, even if there are things you'd rather spend your money on. It's simply not optional. My mom was a tither--she would tithe, even if she didn't have enough money for basic groceries for the family. I don't necessarily agree, but I do understand the importance of it to some people.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

There are certain teaching within some churches (not all, or maybe even most, for sure) that highly suggest you carry no debt due to certain scriptures (such as Proverbs 22:7 ...the borrower is servant to the lender, Proverbs 17:18, Matthew 6:24, Romans 13:8, etc...). An example of individual Christians against debt would be Dave Ramsey.

Mormonism has many teachings on debt (that are easy to find on the net such as avoid debt whenever possible, and if you take money for a modest house and schooling, pay it back ASAP), which has lead to things like Utah having the lowest student loan debt load in the country.

Finance and religion is actually really interesting to study, including religions that outlaw, or highly discourage interest (Islam comes to mind), the idea of usury and what to do about it, the idea of a Jubilee where all debt is forgiven, etc... So, in short, religious beliefs will impact an individuals' take on debt and paying it off, making it more than just a numbers game for some.

Interesting and thank you for the reply. I need to look into this more because I have a theory regarding it but don't want to even discuss it until I have educated myself on it further.

One thing I did want to mention though is regarding the bolded portion. A lot of stories have come out over the past year around Dave Ramsey and how poorly he treats employees. I don't think he is someone who should be put on a pedestal... much the opposite.
https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15...alled-a-jerk-for-his-stands-on-sex-and-covid/https://melissajhogan.com/my-statement-regarding-ramsey-solutions/https://melissajhogan.com/dave-ramsey-gossip-slander-privacy/

 

[RamblingMad]

One thing I did want to mention though is regarding the bolded portion. A lot of stories have come out over the past year around Dave Ramsey and how poorly he treats employees. I don't think he is someone who should be put on a pedestal... much the opposite.

I'm not a fan of Ramsey or Orman. Debt is a combination of poor financial education and ridiculous salary growth since the 80s.

 

[Mome Rath]

I certainly hope I didn't give the impression I was putting anyone or any group mentioned in my post on a pedestal, but rather giving examples of the interaction between faith and monetary philosophy.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I certainly hope I didn't give the impression I was putting anyone or any group mentioned in my post on a pedestal, but rather giving examples of the interaction between faith and monetary philosophy.

I think it goes along with a lot of other things we discuss on this thread--you find money for the things that are important to you. For most on this thread, retiring (early or well or both) is a priority, so it's something we find the money for. Some people value fancy vacations, and give up other things to have them. Others value their spiritual/religious journey, and find the money to fund that. You could list a whole bunch of things--exercise, cigarettes, meals out, second homes, fancy cars. If you want to know what a person values, look at where they direct their resources--time or money.

 

[RamblingMad]

She’s nuts. Who realistically has a couple hundred thousand in retirement cash flow a year?

 

[Chickinvic]

I'm not a fan of Ramsey or Orman. Debt is a combination of poor financial education and ridiculous salary growth since the 80s.

I can't stand Ramsey, and his advice makes absolutely no sense to my logical mind. His debt repayment snowball method (littlest to biggest) makes no sense to me. Saves more money if you go by higher interest debt first. Also, I don't think his type of "rigid" mindset (all debt is evil), is ever really a good thing. Different things work for different people I guess, but he is just plain wrong about a lot of stuff.

 

[Rob Huff]

I can't stand Ramsey, and his advice makes absolutely no sense to my logical mind. His debt repayment snowball method (littlest to biggest) makes no sense to me. Saves more money if you go by higher interest debt first. Also, I don't think his type of "rigid" mindset (all debt is evil), is ever really a good thing. Different things work for different people I guess, but he is just plain wrong about a lot of stuff.

I'm a Ramsey fan, but I don't follow big chunks of his advice. I know what works for me and my family. He'd say that I'm destined to fail. I'm not so frail that such a comment breaks me. I just enjoy listening to the calls and hearing him give everyone the same advice; there's something bizarrely comforting about it. He doesn't take my preferred approach -- that's what Thomas Stanley is for -- but I appreciate someone using his platform in a way that should dramatically reduce stress in American households.

When we were paying off my wife's student loans and our car, we very much went the way of the debt avalanche (attack high interest rates, not small balances). We were extremely disciplined and throwing everything we could at our debt sources. The avalanche worked beautifully for us. I was also wildly debt averse for many years before I knew who Dave was.

However, there's tremendous support for the debt snowball (attack small balances, not high interest rates) method and not just from Dave and his followers. One of Dave's go-to comments is that personal finance is "80% emotion, 20% head knowledge." Harvard Business Review studied this a few years ago (hopefully this link works) and very much came down on the side of the debt snowball. If debtors don't start stacking wins, even if they're small wins, they're much less likely to persist and succeed.

It always helps me to hear somebody else repeatedly say that personal finance is really a psychological issue, not an economic one. I'm much more like a financial robot, but even I run into emotional issues every now and then!

 

[Chickinvic]

I'm not a fan of Ramsey or Orman. Debt is a combination of poor financial education and ridiculous salary growth since the 80s.

I can't stand Ramsey, and his advice makes absolutely no sense to my logical mind. His debt repayment snowball method (littlest to biggest) makes no sense to me. Saves more money if you go by higher interest debt first. Also, I don't think his type of "rigid" mindset (all debt is evil), is ever really a good thing. Different things work for different people I guess, but he is just plain wrong about a lot of stuff.

She’s nuts. Who realistically has a couple hundred thousand in retirement cash flow a year?

I won't, that's for sure lol.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

I certainly hope I didn't give the impression I was putting anyone or any group mentioned in my post on a pedestal, but rather giving examples of the interaction between faith and monetary philosophy.

Sorry, maybe "pedestal" isn't the proper term. I just meant he probably shouldn't be used as an example anymore.