The good news and the bad news about recent DVC changes (IMO)

[JimMIA]

My GUESS is that they negotiate for some and pay for some. For example, I'm sure the member events at Typhoon Lagoon is paid for - no benefit to parks for them to staff and run the park for "nothing". They probably negotiate for merchandise & dining discounts or at most, pay very little.

OTOH, the Platinum AP discount is $106 and DVC owners can also buy the Gold which mere mortals can't buy. If DVD pays even $20 per pass for the entire membership, that's a lot of money.

 

[Dean]

I wonder if DVD actually pays for the perks or just negotiates for them.

My GUESS is that they negotiate for some and pay for some. For example, I'm sure the member events at Typhoon Lagoon is paid for - no benefit to parks for them to staff and run the park for "nothing". They probably negotiate for merchandise & dining discounts or at most, pay very little.

It partly depends on what you label as perks and what the intent of the perk is. For most, I believe thier simply offered or negotiated and cost nothing directly though there's still admin time and the like involved. For other things there is a sales perspective whether it's the member cruise, EPCOT lounge or park events and I suspect theat DVD pays for some and DVCMC for some. The ones paid for by DVCMC should be available for all because of the way their funding is derived

The resale points do cost DVD more than if the original owner keeps the contract but it's not the cost of perks, it's the costs associated with ROFR and contract/membership transfer.

But this is the system they've set themselves up for. They could streamline it if they wanted. This should be accounted for in their budget already.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Rather than a shot at resale, I have a nagging suspicion that the root cause was the increase in AP prices raising the ante for DVD to provide those perks to DVC owners. We don't know what they pay, but I think it's very likely that DVD pays something for every DVC AP sold. The same is probably true for the other discounts -- it's not very likely that the merchandising and dining folks are just giving stuff away to DVC.

I don't believe we'll ever know if this is one where Disney theme parks establish they want to make certain many of the DVC people come into the parks or if DVC wants to offer it as a perk. When you compare to the fact that the Parks offer a FL discount, and Florida isn't paying them for it, at least directly, I'd say there's history that they will just flat out offer discounts to groups where they see benefit. The rapidly increasing prices of AP might be slightly subsidizing the discounted AP's rather than DVC.

The resale points do cost DVD more than if the original owner keeps the contract but it's not the cost of perks, it's the costs associated with ROFR and contract/membership transfer.

DVC does charge for the transfers. I think they even recently increased the charge.

 

[JimMIA]

I don't believe we'll ever know if this is one where Disney theme parks establish they want to make certain many of the DVC people come into the parks or if DVC wants to offer it as a perk. When you compare to the fact that the Parks offer a FL discount, and Florida isn't paying them for it, at least directly, I'd say there's history that they will just flat out offer discounts to groups where they see benefit. The rapidly increasing prices of AP might be slightly subsidizing the discounted AP's rather than DVC.

You're right; we'll probably never know, but from a marketing perspective DVC owners and Florida residents are two very different target markets. The Florida discounts are a response to several factors, I think, and really different from the DVC discount.

First of all, the other theme parks in the WDW area offer Florida resident discounts...usually much better than Disney. Also, over the years the I-4 corridor between Daytona and Tampa has grown tremendously and there is now a huge population base within an easy drive. Florida is the 3rd most populous state and most of our population lives within 4-5 hours of WDW. Disney obviously wants to attract locals, and that's why you see discounts like our Epcot after 4, water parks after 2, and several other specialized discounts. And of course, there is also the basic fact of Florida life that we all are familiar with -- relatives and friends visiting from the frozen Northland. Our family has at least two groups every year, and often 4-5 groups of visitors. The Florida APs help encourage Floridians to bring their guests to WDW.

By contrast, if anything, there is a disincentive to just giving away DVC APs. DVCers are coming to WDW a certain number of nights a year regardless. They are a reliable visitor base that doesn't really need to be offered discounts to get them in the parks. How often have we heard the complaint here on the DIS that DVCers are treated as second class guests because they know we're coming every year anyway?

Floridians and our guests have tons of great vacation activities to choose from; DVCers are there almost exclusively to visit WDW theme parks. Doesn't mean they don't go to Universal, but the overwhelming amount of time is spent at WDW no matter what the pricing. So I think they are different animals from a marketing perspective.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I wonder how many of us bring guests though that would never otherwise come? I know we do. And we drag them along multiple times. And they can't resist souvenirs.

 

[malba2366]

If they ever take away the DVC annual pass, the Florida Resident annual pass is ridiculously easy to get if you know someone living in Florida. Just open up another checking account somewhere with the minimum funding level. Then change the mailing address that persons Florida address. The checking statement plus a passport is adequate proof to get a Florida resident pass.

 

[alisonslp]

I probably didn't make my point very clear. DVD previously was paying for perks for both direct and resale buyers. DVD -- which is the developer -- gets nothing from resale buyers. Not one penny. So the logic goes, "Why should we pay for their perks?"

And the fact that someone bought the points direct originally a long, long time ago is irrelevant. When I purchased resale, I didn't pay one penny to DVD. Only when I purchased direct did I pay DVD anything.

You may not have paid directly but the original owner did and that person can no longer benefit from the perks that were provided to them as a result of buying. DVD is no longer paying the cost for that person. So there is no double dipping per-se. The contract for ownership has been paid in full and the MF get transferred to the new owner so no money (past, present) is being lost by the developer. The perks should follow the contract and if they don't, then the original owner should continue to have the benefit of the original perks that they paid for and cannot transfer. They should not just disappear. I am not a resale owner so I have no skin in the game. I just think DVD is not playing by the "rules" here - and I fully realize it is their game and they can make/change the rules when they want. If they really don't want resales, then they should prohibit them all together and force the owner to sell back to Disney for a deeply discounted price. Then Disney would continue to have complete control. Of course, they would get far fewer folks buying in because the impulse buy is a lot less enticing - can't get out of it.

 

[Dean]

You may not have paid directly but the original owner did and that person can no longer benefit from the perks that were provided to them as a result of buying. DVD is no longer paying the cost for that person. So there is no double dipping per-se. The contract for ownership has been paid in full and the MF get transferred to the new owner so no money (past, present) is being lost by the developer. The perks should follow the contract and if they don't, then the original owner should continue to have the benefit of the original perks that they paid for and cannot transfer. They should not just disappear. I am not a resale owner so I have no skin in the game. I just think DVD is not playing by the "rules" here - and I fully realize it is their game and they can make/change the rules when they want. If they really don't want resales, then they should prohibit them all together and force the owner to sell back to Disney for a deeply discounted price. Then Disney would continue to have complete control. Of course, they would get far fewer folks buying in because the impulse buy is a lot less enticing - can't get out of it.

Every resale is a potentially lost retail. The balance sheet is for this year, not several years ago. Timeshares don't look at it as they sold it once and are stuck with the full benefit package for life, just like the car dealerships often don't transfer other perks like tires for life. The idea that resale options affects sales up front is simply not a correct one. It would be very rare and even more rare for a retail purchaser for this to affect their decision. Not that you won't see some say it would/did but in reality it actually would for a very small % of those. Timeshares worth nothing resale are able to continue selling.

 

[JimMIA]

The contract for ownership has been paid in full and the MF get transferred to the new owner so no money (past, present) is being lost by the developer. The perks should follow the contract and if they don't, then the original owner should continue to have the benefit of the original perks that they paid for and cannot transfer. They should not just disappear.

There are a couple of profound fundamental logical flaws with this argument.

First of all, as we all know, perks are not contractual and therefore can't possibly be expected to pass along with the contract. Only contractual guarantees pass along from buyer to buyer. That's actually the point of a contract -- to spell out what you get (a vacation ownership represented by points and the right to use those points as specified by the contract) and what's expected of you (paying MFs, etc.)

Secondly, by that logic, I should not have an AP discount, but I should still enjoy free valet parking -- because a DVC AP discount did not exist when I bought my resale contract, but the free valet perk did. Perks have nothing to do with the contract and they can and do change from time to time...sometimes overnight.

I am not a resale owner so I have no skin in the game. I just think DVD is not playing by the "rules" here - and I fully realize it is their game and they can make/change the rules when they want.

It's not "their game." They are bound by the same laws and contracts we are bound by, and have to comply with some of the most stringent timeshare sales regulations in the country. They are playing precisely by the rules of the game which are exceptionally clearly spelled out in the contracts, POS's, and many other places.

I'm not a fan of what they did either from a business perspective or a customer perspective. I think they managed to be both stupid and amateurish at the same time. They made a lot of people mad, and they accomplished absolutely nothing of any value. They already had "perks" reserved for direct purchasers; they gained nothing. The Disney timeshare salesmen who couldn't sell two weeks ago won't be able to sell tomorrow either. But DVC had every legal right to do what they did.

If they really don't want resales, then they should prohibit them all together and force the owner to sell back to Disney for a deeply discounted price. Then Disney would continue to have complete control.

Which would be totally illegal -- both under Florida law and Federal anti-trust law.

 

[disneynutz]

All Disney cares about is making direct sales, they do not offer perks and membership magic to be nice, they offer it so they can tell perspective buyers that they can experience membership magic if they buy direct.

Should Disney stop selling direct, I guarantee you that all non-owner paid for perks and extras would disappear over night.

It's a business.

Bill

 

[alisonslp]

There are a couple of profound fundamental logical flaws with this argument.

First of all, as we all know, perks are not contractual and therefore can't possibly be expected to pass along with the contract. Only contractual guarantees pass along from buyer to buyer. That's actually the point of a contract -- to spell out what you get (a vacation ownership represented by points and the right to use those points as specified by the contract) and what's expected of you (paying MFs, etc.)

Secondly, by that logic, I should not have an AP discount, but I should still enjoy free valet parking -- because a DVC AP discount did not exist when I bought my resale contract, but the free valet perk did. Perks have nothing to do with the contract and they can and do change from time to time...sometimes overnight. It's not "their game." They are bound by the same laws and contracts we are bound by, and have to comply with some of the most stringent timeshare sales regulations in the country. They are playing precisely by the rules of the game which are exceptionally clearly spelled out in the contracts, POS's, and many other places.

I'm not a fan of what they did either from a business perspective or a customer perspective. I think they managed to be both stupid and amateurish at the same time. They made a lot of people mad, and they accomplished absolutely nothing of any value. They already had "perks" reserved for direct purchasers; they gained nothing. The Disney timeshare salesmen who couldn't sell two weeks ago won't be able to sell tomorrow either. But DVC had every legal right to do what they did. Which would be totally illegal -- both under Florida law and Federal anti-trust law.

my post was more "tongue in cheek idealism" so I wasn't really thinking about the laws of Florida, but thanks for clarifying the actual law...

 

[ScubaCat]

All Disney cares about is making direct sales, they do not offer perks and membership magic to be nice, they offer it so they can tell perspective buyers that they can experience membership magic if they buy direct.

Should Disney stop selling direct, I guarantee you that all non-owner paid for perks and extras would disappear over night.

It's a business.

Bill

People often forget that they're not guaranteed for anyone. The decision to exclude certain resale buyers from certain perks is simply a business decision.

I would imagine that, in the highly unlikely scenario (considering how much money they make from it) where they were to stop building and selling direct, they'd leave one or two fairly insignificant "bennies" intact simply to retain goodwill in the event that they ever did build or sell again. Plus, in 2042 (assuming nothing changes), they'll have a whole bunch of repurposed units to sell, so they'd want to be able to show off perks for that as well.

The sole purpose of any and all timeshare-related perks is to sell additional contracts.

 

[Dean]

The sole purpose of any and all timeshare-related perks is to sell additional contracts.

Many of the perks have no cost. If I compare to Marriott, who tends to offer discounts for local business, they don't make them a part of being qualified vs not but they do often tie access to the discounts to those who can sign you up for timeshare tours. For HH, as a head to head comparison, they have a much more extensive list than DVC does (at least last I saw).

 

[Paula Sedley-Burke]

I could see that if a direct contract were sold by a couple that bought an AP every year each and now bought by a family through resale now buying 5 APs a year. If DVD do pay towards these perks then they may be out of pocket. They are now selling more APs than before. Perhaps they crunched the figures and discovered it was younger people with families buying resale.

 

[JimMIA]

Many of the perks have no cost. If I compare to Marriott, who tends to offer discounts for local business, they don't make them a part of being qualified vs not but they do often tie access to the discounts to those who can sign you up for timeshare tours. For HH, as a head to head comparison, they have a much more extensive list than DVC does (at least last I saw).

Wyndham does that too. When we were in Sedona last summer, they had an incredible array of local discounts. Some were exclusively for timeshare tours, some were not, and some offered one discount without a tour and a better discount with. The discounts which required the timeshare presentation were really substantial discounts. And naturally, ALL discounts were offered only at the timeshare sales desk!

We didn't bite on any of the discounts, but they had some good ones.

Of course, for DVC, the last thing on earth they want to do is to steer guests to local businesses! They've invested millions of dollars in mechanisms to keep their guests away from local businesses, so any discounts they offer will naturally be focused on sending us to other Disney venues.

 

[disneynutz]

DVD reminds me of a RV resort where we once owned. While being sold, the place was beautiful, we had a post office, cafe, events, dinners, live entertainment, discounts at local stores and RV service, on call RV maintenance and detailing, recreation coordinator, exercise room with staff, gated security and patrols, a wonderful place to own.

After selling out, within a couple of years, all of the above was gone even though our HOA fees had doubled. People started selling including us and the prices fell by 50%. Now the place is run down with plenty of availability and they have a very high crime rate.

I'm not saying that Disney would ever be this bad but it is a lesson in the dynamics of selling timeshares or RV resorts.

Bill

 

[Dean]

Wyndham does that too. When we were in Sedona last summer, they had an incredible array of local discounts. Some were exclusively for timeshare tours, some were not, and some offered one discount without a tour and a better discount with. The discounts which required the timeshare presentation were really substantial discounts. And naturally, ALL discounts were offered only at the timeshare sales desk!

We didn't bite on any of the discounts, but they had some good ones.

Of course, for DVC, the last thing on earth they want to do is to steer guests to local businesses! They've invested millions of dollars in mechanisms to keep their guests away from local businesses, so any discounts they offer will naturally be focused on sending us to other Disney venues.

A lot of timeshare resorts have concierge desk specials and even better specials/discounts for those that tour. For Marriott it's more like those of DVC and it's normally intended for Marriott owners only but they tend to offer them to most anyone. IMO DVC could offer much better discounts if they put an effort into it.

 

[Supplanter]

First of all, as we all know, perks are not contractual and therefore can't possibly be expected to pass along with the contract. Only contractual guarantees pass along from buyer to buyer. That's actually the point of a contract -- to spell out what you get (a vacation ownership represented by points and the right to use those points as specified by the contract) and what's expected of you (paying MFs, )....

Having a section that says discounts and incentives may be offered to you and are subject to limitation or termination at any time just feels different than saying we reserve the right to selectively offer discounts to certain groups and exclude others.
It sounds like more protection against being forced to continue to offer perks indefinitely rather than a warning that they might choose to cut out certain members.

 

[ScubaCat]

After selling out, within a couple of years, all of the above was gone even though our HOA fees had doubled. People started selling including us and the prices fell by 50%. Now the place is run down with plenty of availability and they have a very high crime rate.

I'm not saying that Disney would ever be this bad but it is a lesson in the dynamics of selling timeshares or RV resorts.

Well, they have removed ceiling fans, jetted tub, cool window with shutters, unique styling, and all the hard themeing elements from BCV. It's a slippery slope...

 

[alisonslp]

Well, they have removed ceiling fans, jetted tub, cool window with shutters, unique styling, and all the hard themeing elements from BCV. It's a slippery slope...

They took away the jetted tub? I saw a picture of soaking tub in one of the threads on the refurb. I had figured that put in the same soaking tub with floor jets as in the VGF. Is that not the case?