The DIS Book Club Discussion Group: Round 5 - The Particular Sadness of Lemon Cake

[*NikkiBell*]

Chris, everything is in the first post. I put updates there.

 

[*NikkiBell*]

Hi Everyone!!

Today is the day that everyone should have finished Part One (pgs. 3-81). If you are behind, don't stress. The reading schedule is flexible enough for you to move ahead at your own pace. I'm going to leave it the way it is for now and adjust, if need be, in the future.

On to the discussion...

I have to admit, I wasn't sure what we'd get ourselves into when we started reading The Particular Sadness... I read the back cover and thought it sounded like a very different type of text which could promote some interesting discussions. What immediately caught my eye was the main character, Rose. This nine year old little girl seems quite mysterious and, ultimately, lonely. You do not see her socializing with other children at school very often. In fact, she appears to be almost starving for the attention of those around her especially Joseph, her older brother. I recognized myself identifying with how she wanted to be with him much like I did with my older brothers when I was younger.

Joseph, on the other hand, is a very different character. I immediately found myself comparing him to Jacob of Jodi Picoult's House Rules. Like his sister, Joseph does not thrive well in social situations, appears overwhelmed by an abundance of stimuli, and avoids making eye-contact and even some physical contact (Rose had to hold onto his sleeve instead of his hand or he'd throw a fit). The presence of these traits has led some critics of The Particular Sadness... to diagnose Joseph as having high-functioning autism. I'm not sure if I see that just yet.

The other character that has been on my mind while reading Part One is Rose and Joseph's mother, Lane. Is anyone else struggling to understand her? I find myself surprised at her behavior with every flip of the page. Early on, the author made a big issue of explaining the fact that she does not sleep well at night, which leads to her not taking care of her children before they go off to school. According to the text, she has had this problem since she was a young child and Rose often finds herself climbing onto her lap in the wee hours of the morning to comfort her. If this is not something that will play a major role in the plot, why else would it be mentioned?

Similarly, Lane has an overwhelming desire to find something she is "good at" when it comes to using her hands. I'm struggling with this, but realize many wives and mothers experience these feelings at one point or another. Thinking of two childrens' books in particular, The Pinballs and Walk Two Moons, this is a common recurrence in literature. Both of these texts involve a wife/mother who struggles with finding her identity and who eventually leaves her family to discover herself. Interestingly enough, they also involve husbands/fathers who are unable to see the signs that their mates are unhappy. Neither of the female characters return for very different reasons (I won't give this away in case you're interested in reading them). Why do you think authors frequently present their female characters this way? Do you think Lane will take this path to find herself? What effect, if any, would this have on Rose and Joseph?

 

[hmonkeyruns]

Read this one in a single day at the beach.

I loved it. I can't quite say why, but I did. I'm quite sure I don't understand it.

I'll have more to say when I'm not posting from my phone!

 

[cc1013]

Nikki - Thanks for the great discussion topics! Here are my thoughts so far.

Joseph (the brother) - He reminds me of the father in 'Dear John' by Nicholas Sparks. He had aspergers syndrome, which impacted his social skills. I didn't make the connection until you mentioned the Jodi Picoult book.

Lane (the mother) - I completely agree and am having trouble understanding her. I am guessing that she may be very torn between what she really desires and what she 'should' be doing as a wife/mother. Almost as if she is motivated by different things in each scene (the little devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other). She seems unpredictable. Interesting that you mention her sleeping problems have lingered since youth. I hadn't thought about that but it could be very significant! Also, the gifts that were sent by Lane's mom indicate that her female role model was likely questionable. That could play in as well......

The Parents (Lane & ?, sorry I can't remember his name)- Their lack of connection is very disturbing. I feel like this is about to blow up.

Great book so far. I love the writing style.

 

[Merry Mousketeer]

Since I have completed the book, I'm hesitant to reply since it's difficult to share my thoughts without spoiling the book.

I think it's possible for a person to emotionally and psychologically leave while still physically remaining with the family. Early on in the story that's exactly how these characters seemed to me. None of them seemed connected to each other emotionally. One would reach out, but pull back. They are all strangers living in the same household.

 

[AnneR]

My thought immediately as Joseph was being described was Aspergers. But as I am reading more, I am not so sure. Trying to figure out the connection with Lane especially the outings together. Either way his character certainly has similar traits and social/interpersonal skill deficits.

Lane - still working on trying to figure her out. There are some aspects to her that I can relate to either from my own personal experience or my mothers. I think she is lonely in her marriage and that she is looking for fulfillment through jobs and others. The sleep issue -- I suspect her waking at night will relate to something further in the story. But those of you who know me, know that this can describe my sleep patterns which go back to childhood but only to a point. I have always been a person who wakes up when I am roused (not sure if I spelled that on right) so that once I am awake I am up, sometimes for the night. It is true that sleep is more distrupted with stress including emotions. It could be that her sleep reflects her unhappiness dating back to childhood.

The Grandmother - my first thought was a mental illness, this could explain some of the issues that Lane has.

Hoping to be able to read some more tonight.

 

[hmonkeyruns]

Joseph: I agree, my thoughts turned to House Rules and Asperger's when I started to read about his odd personality but as the story progressed my feelings on him changed. More on that later.

Lane: I understand Lane. The description of her becoming obsessed by a new hobby and then growing bored with it as soon as she masters the basics sounds exactly like me! For me, it's like I want to embody the idea "jack of all trades, master of none" even though that's really not a good thing. I love the idea of knowing a little bit about everything....enough to be able to have a converstation about any subject but not necessarily being an expert. I think this is why I like her character. I wonder if maybe the marriage is just more of the same thing -- she tried it out, learned the basics and then was ready to move on but really couldn't because of the children and the lack of a "real" reason to divorce her husband.

The feelings of depression (hollow, emptiness, etc.) that come through in the lemon cake seem like they could manifest physically in her insomnia. I'm not sure I want to say any more about her until later.

Grandmother: Super mysterious, never quite figured her out. Mental illness seems likely - maybe nothing more than typical dementia because of old age. I can't quite figure out the relationship between Lane & Grandmother.

Spoiler

After she passes away we see the odd way she chooses to communicate her love/connection to her daughter. She couldn't express it in life and she probably passed that trait along to her daughter.[end spoiler]

The Father: I don't want to talk about him until we get more into the book.

None of them seemed connected to each other emotionally. One would reach out, but pull back. They are all strangers living in the same household.

I think that hits the nail right on the head. What's interesting to me is WHY they are so disconnected. [spolier] it's like all of them experience things that are so intense they are afraid/unable to communicate them to the rest of the family. They aren't estranged due to lack of feeling but more because they have an overabundance to feeling/emotion. [end spoiler]

I think my thoughts are very jumbled in this post. I'm not sure how safe it is for me to say things without spoiling the book.

 

[froggy5657]

Pay attention to the Duality of the Physical versus the Spiritual (not in a Godly sense, but in the intangible sense), especially with Rose and how she is always "more like an echo than a participant" (Location 695, I am reading on the kindle so there aren't pages) as well as

(highlight to read, it is a quote from part 2 but doesn't give anything away)how in their wedding photo the mother "looked like a ghost" while the father "was all tangibility" (1232)

(this does give something away ish...) also Joseph, a physical body, dissapears like a spirit.

And of course the most obvious, the ability to taste the emotions (spiritual) in the food (physical)

-------------------
Also, as you read notice how the footstool (first mentioned in part 2 I think) is used as a symbol of the marriage

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The family dynamic is very interesting as well, the mother not waking up to take care of her kids, her obvious preference for Joseph, her lack of relationship with her husband, family meals that aren't actually a time to talk to each other. Just another thing to pay attention to

I haven't finished this yet, but I am really enjoying it.

 

[DisneySunflower]

I am so confused! I do not get Lane or Joseph. I was also thinking that Joseph has Asperger's Syndrome, but I am not certain, perhaps he is just quirky.

I must admit that I am very intrigued and that keeps me reading more.

 

[minie_meese]

Joseph: I too thought of Aspberger’s and was thinking to myself, “I hope this is not another House Rules”. I was glad to see it isn’t. Joseph is incredibly bright with no social skills. If I remember correctly (I finished the book a while ago and should go back and re-read it) Rose feels inferior because she gets compared to her brother. She has great social skills. People can’t appreciate or mostly don’t know about Rose’s unique qualities (good thing because she would end up diagnosed as mentally ill). Joseph and Rose are extreme versions of what I saw a lot when I was in school when there were 2 siblings. The second child was often compared to the first and expected to be like their sibling. They were often treated as not being as good. They’re not treated like they are an individual who is more likely than not, very different from their sibling.

Lane: She is quite different from her children. They are incredible at one specific thing and Lane is pretty good at a lot of things but not superb at one thing. Unlike her children, her talents don’t own her. It feels like she is looking for approval and never gets the approval she is looking for so she moves on to something else. Much of her behavior seems like a form of depression. Having to go off by her self and lay down. Maybe she recognized some of the characteristics of her mother in herself, which kept her estranged from her mother. Self-satisfaction isn’t enough to keep Lane interested in all of the things she tries. I think she is doing these things for the wrong reasons and needs to start doing some things for herself to get herself healthy. This is related to the things Nikki was referring to.

Grandmother: she is an odd bird. I just can’t imagine not having physical contact with my family. Did Lane never get approval from her and that is why they are so estranged? Is she mentally ill or possibly starting to suffer from dementia? I’m guessing it has to be something like that.

The Father: His character is not terribly well developed in the beginning of the book. He felt to me kind of like the husband version of a Stepford Wife.

I really like this book. It is quirky and an enjoyable read.

 

[silverwolfe2003]

Looking forward to reading this book, it sounds really different!

I am new to the book club thread...I think it is a great idea and I would love to participate if you will have me!

Do any of you have a Kindle or a Nook? I am trying to decide between the two...sigh...

Sam

 

[princessbride6205]

Overall, I'm finding the book a quick read and a page turner. The writer's style is really enjoyable. The author's analogies and word choices are so interesting and perfectly explain the comparisons she is making. For example, after sharing a rare moment with her dad, "Our boats on the river had drifted apart."

I'm not sure exactly where I'm getting this idea, but I keep feeling like this book is set in the 1950s or 1960s. Maybe it's just the lack of brand names, pop culture references and technology.

The voice the story is written in is the older self telling the tale, but I get a sense that her younger, childlike perceptions may be informing a lot in Part 1. Did her mother really favor Joseph or was that her 9-year old self? Not that it's less relevant to Rose's experience, but the favoritism may not be as much a part of Lane's character.

Rose - I am very curious what it was about her 9th birthday that turned on the switch so that she could suddenly taste emotions. It's also interesting that she talks about all the ways she survives on eating certain foods, but she's not really coping, because she seems to have distanced herself from social relationships.

Lane - I feel like we need to be at the end of Part 2 before I share too much. I will say that the Part 1 description of her had me confused, so many differing traits that I couldn't synthesize into one label or personality type: sleep troubles, devoted to her children, has to have a project, changes jobs, free spirit. There were parts of her personality that I actually identified with. Like trying new things - I'm a fast learner, so I am usually quite good at things for a novice, but once I hit that part where the learning curve slows down, I may get frustrated or lose interest.

Grandma - I think she is reaching out with all the gifts. I get the sense that it is Lane who does not want the relationship with her mother. But more on that in Part 2. I have heard that older people often give away their possessions, including seemingly crazy items like worn dish towels. But since she is actually shipping these possessions and they are not valuable or sentimental, she could just as easily have given them to a neighbor or Goodwill.

Dad - I love the description of him on Chapter 4, page 21 about his lists. But that seems to be the most interesting thing about him. His character development is lacking in Part 1, probably on purpose to illustrate that he is not emotionally present in the family. This was also a great line, "...Have a Son and Have a Daughter looked better on paper than in the crying and diapering day after day..." I've had that thought myself on a rough day.

Joseph - my first thought was Asperger's, but I'll have to read further. I am curious what we learn about him after Part 2, which is entitled "Joseph." Not really a spoiler: I'm halfway through that section and I'm not sure why it's named for him! [end un-spoiler]

 

[*NikkiBell*]

Things are really picking up for me in Part 2. I am finding that I like the book more and more with every turn of the page. It was a slow start for me, but things are really moving right along fast.

The grandmother character is very interesting. It seems like every female character in the novel has some bizarre facet to her personality. Lane is definitely no exception.

I keep finding myself shouting at the book at Rose's father. Is he totally naive, or is it just me?

Reminder: Everyone should be finished with Part II by tomorrow.

 

[RutgersAlum]

Ok, a few days behind...I just finished Part I yesterday. A quick read, I love Bender's prose, and find myself thinking about some of the language she uses at different times of the day, when I am not reading (calling Rose an echo more than a participant, wow, that is so vivid and profound for me--I saw that a pp cited that phrase as well, but that phrase is staying with me). I found it telling that Lane's marriage was based upon her husband's act of deception--seemingly playful and determined, and love-at-first-sight-esque, an adorable "how my parents met" story, about the hunt for the footstool and his tenacity to find her what she was looking for (and be the hero for it). But that Lane did not find out about how the footstool came to be until her wedding day...well, I think the husband's manipulation of their meeting (and perhaps, by extension, their marriage) could have much to do with their two ships in the night existence.

The comment about him checking items in life off a list made this marriage seem to me like one more thing to check off.

Lane, on the other hand, even seems fleeting in her photos. The ghostly dress, etc., she is physically here but not "here" in her life and in her family. Yes, I, too, can identify with her. She has a short attention span, likes trying new hobbies, new jobs...I don't know if any man could ever truly capture her heart--I don't know if she is truly able to commit to one thing, one husband, one career...she is a woman who is like a spirit almost. Seeking...

In Part I at least, I believe Joseph has Aspergers. The inability to hold a hand back. To converse with a peer (until George). The bond between him & Lane have me paying attention for the rest of the book, for sure....

Rose, wow! So lonely, craves the undivided attention of her mom, her dad, her brother...I am not yet seeing the connection between the sense of taste and reading people's emotions...but what a wild concept for a book, can't wait to see where it leads.

Not sure I've added anything, just thinking and processing what I've read out loud (typing...).

Great choice for a club book.

 

[cc1013]

Lane, on the other hand, even seems fleeting in her photos. The ghostly dress, etc., she is physically here but not "here" in her life and in her family. Yes, I, too, can identify with her. She has a short attention span, likes trying new hobbies, new jobs...I don't know if any man could ever truly capture her heart--I don't know if she is truly able to commit to one thing, one husband, one career...she is a woman who is like a spirit almost.

I completely agree with this analysis of Lane. You captured it wonderfully.

I finished Part 2 last night and the end of it left me sitting there with my mouth open and honestly a bit confused. The whole Joseph/chair situation was very unsettling to me. On the other hand, I smiled when Rose called her mom out about the relationship with Larry.

 

[Califgirl]

I also had the feeling that this book was taking place in the early 60's - at least at the beginning. I think it was because Mom was at home, Dad went to work and had little interaction with the kids, and maybe just the overall feeling of Lane's discontent of being a homemaker. Not sure I can pinpoint exactly why, but I definitely had the feeling at the beginning that the book was taking place in the 60's.

I could understand Lane's discontent with being a homemaker, and always having to live up to everyone else's expectations for her. She needed to do something / create something of her own .. by herself, for herself. It’s almost like her ‘ghostlyness’ that comes out in the photos is deep in her psyche and she trys to become more real by creating something that comes from her soul, rather than creating something out of obligation (like dinner) soley because it is expected of her. I thought she was very creative in recognizing that Joseph wasn’t getting much out of school and instead took him out for ‘adventures’. Misguided or not, I appreciated that she was trying to stimulate the gift she saw in her child. I think she was also looking for ways to stimulate her own gifts, and couldn’t reconcile how to do it under her obligations at home.

My favorite character in the entire book is George. The one person Rose can tell her secret to, and to his credit he listens to her and even takes her to the bakery for a taste test. He takes her seriously, and never in the book does he make fun or belittle her. He was my hero for that.

I actually also liked the father character. I loved that he created the footstool to win his love. Like many men, especially in the 60’s, he did what he thought was his duty by going to work and providing for his family. The distance between him and his family was very familiar, and I think that if someone had told him that he was expected to spend time with the children, take them to ball games, read to them etc. I think he would have done it. Being a parent is not an innate skill, and information about parenting has become more prevalent in the last 20 years or so. If he had realized that his children had special ‘gifts’ he may have been more attentive. I think like Lane, he was doing what he thought was expected of him.

I think the entire family was distant from one another because they each had secrets that they wouldn’t share. Once the secrets, the uncertainty, and the shame of being different comes out, it can be dealt with and our uniqueness can be celebrated instead of feared.

 

[*NikkiBell*]

Hi All! Today is the day that you should have finished Part Two (if not more). Because so many of us have mentioned a lot of thoughts they are eager to share on this section, I wanted to open it up as a "free for all" conversation. What was your impression of Part Two? of its characters?

 

[princessbride6205]

Wow, this book is going so quickly for me. I never thought I'd be able to keep up with the reading schedule, but it's not been a problem.

There have been a few moments in the story where Mom & Dad have seemed less clueless. Like they almost know a secret about Joseph or maybe another family secret. One example is near the end of Part II, where the father says something like, "Your mother is right half the time." It could mean just that, but I think there's something there. Another example, maybe mom knew something and that's why she installed that random side door in Joseph's room.

Joseph - He is obsessed with scientific discovery. I don't think disappearing is an innate gift (could be wrong), I think it's something he's working on. It seems like he wants to achieve this for his own edification rather than for recognition in the science community. I think that is clear because he literally chooses invisibility. I knew early in Part II that he was working on disappearing, but I assumed he was traveling somewhere else, as opposed to ceasing to exist in the physical world. After typing all this, I'm wondering if I'm completely off track!

Lane - RutgersAlum's analysis of her character was great. It's really interesting that she has a spirit-like personality, considering Joseph's disappearances - like he is physically a spirit. Sounds like her mom was tough. Lane mentions that her mother came from a big family and had just wanted quiet when she grew up. Lane tried to be the good, quiet girl her mother wanted. Maybe Lane's emptiness is more from growing up without approval/love/support than from being a housewife. Despite sticking with a possibly fulfilling job for several years (before any relationship with Larry), the hollowness never went away in her food. I think Lane may suffer from mild depression - as pedestrian as that sounds for such a creative book. Lane also seems to overcompensate by the "overflow" of love Rose talks about. Rose mentions that her mother's love was overwhelming sometimes. I can think of 2 reasons: one, Lane wants to really show her kids how much she loves them, which her own mother did not. And/or reason two, that she is overcompensating for feeling like she isn't always emotionally present in her family.

I could go on with more random thoughts, but I'll sign off for now.

 

[cc1013]

Hi all. I just wanted to let everyone know that Oprah's website has some great discussion questions posted for this book. I am not going to post any of them here as I know many people are not yet finished (the questions do contain spoilers).

 

[RutgersAlum]

Finished it, loved it...wow! So many thoughts swirling around my head. When I finished it I just kind of held it to my chest for a second, digesting it, and then I re-read the author bio and the inside cover and the food quote right before Chapter 1...I couldn't quite let it go so easily. What a gift as I am about to start school and take a hiatus from such escape-worthy characters as Rose & George, as the Wild Ride demons & Mab, as the Pirate Latitude pirates (er, Privateers, my bad), and even Robert Langdon. I have had a great literary summer!!

Here are some random thoughts. First off, whichever PP (califgirl?) said the book felt like it was set in the 60's, I agree. Payphones!! But seriously, the book had a quiet and thoughtful feel to it, not a "noisy" feel like I feel we have so much of in life today--this I type as the mind-numbing Backyardigans are shrieking "Super Spyyyyyy!" here in the living room...I think I just crave quiet, which is perhaps why I loved the book...

Without giving anything away here, I will say that I like Rose's father a bit more at the end than I did at the beginning. Initially, I thought he was a selfish workaholic dolt who was avoiding his family by pouring himself into work. He ended up with more hues, more facets by the end when

Spoiler

his secret is revealed...

And the Grandma may not be so crazy after all. Like...

Spoiler

is it possible she was sending the weird random objects because she knew about Joseph's gift? Or that she had the gift too? Maybe she was giving him items to practice with--and ultimately, it was her chair that he chose as the best fit for him...who knows...

And my eyes welled up majorly and I gulped back the tears when

Spoiler

George got married. I had thought--hoped, even, since he was the only one who knew about/believed in Rose's gift-- they were sort of destined for each other from the beginning of the book. I am still smarting from that for her, but she did not seem to be pining for him. I was the only one pining, lol.

But maybe Rose

Spoiler

and George couldn't be together. Maybe Joseph was the glue for George to stick around while Joseph was of this world, and when Joseph was essentially gone for good as a human, George had to be as well--like he had to go out and be human enough for both of them...I am envisioning an old-fashioned balancing scale: the less human Joseph becomes, the more human George becomes. Don't mind me, I just see everything in pictures and that works for me...

And the mom...she sensed that something was amiss all the way from Canada. How DID she know? I had been thinking that she was the only one in the family

Spoiler

without a gift, but maybe she really WAS connected to Joseph in some cosmic way? However, she didn't know *where he was* when he was missing, only *that* he was missing, so I might take that back. She might actually BE the only one without a gift, perhaps that is why she seems resentful/distant from her mom?....I just can't commit to a theory, but I know you guys will have some insight!

Thanks cc1013 for the link to O's questions, I skimmed over them and they are thought provoking. Will have to go back and work on them a bit more--just can't let this book go yet!