The DIS Boards in NY Times article

[Laugh O. Grams]

Sorry but its all about the

My last visit to the Beach Club my room had burn marks on the rugs in a non smoking room and a sheet of plywood under the mattress!

Lets just hope the plywood wasn't pressure treated!! Now that might be something to really complain about!

 

[bicker]

I remember when Mousekeeping's arrangement of the stuffed animals in the room or the window was such a treat.
On our recent (7/1 - 7/6) stay at POP, we had no towel animals and minimal creativity the other days, including one day of nothing at all.

By contrast, during our first five stays, we had something special like towel animals one day during two of the five stays. So while that would indicate a distinct improvement over time, many people still feel that they perceive a decline.

This just illustrates how Disney can be a victim of its own high standards and the expectations it creates.

It seems to me that it illustrates the substantial impact of the Internet, because Disney was just fine for many, many years, providing towel animal two out of five visits. It was only when guests started learning about the special things, and indeed that was facilitated by online communities and newsgroups, that guests started coming to expect them, instead of being pleasantly surprised by them.

 

[Goofy4WDW1964]

It is all about the money.

We started going to WDW in 1996. The best vacation we have ever taken. We have been almost every year since then. Around the year 2000 is when we started seeing a decline in Disney service. Now, this is before 9/11, so we can't really blame it all on that. The last three years that we have went, the parks and resorts have been a lot more crowed than they were in the late 90's. So, we can rule out drop in attendance as the cause.

I am not talking about no towel animals in my room. I am an adult. I know towel animals are extras from housekeeping. I am talking about shorter park hours, restaurants closed, litter in the parks, broken pieces on rides. I have even been able to tell a difference in cast member attitudes, and I don't mean all CMs.

There were cuts made during the down time after 9/11 due to low crowds. Well, the crowds have been back for several years and there were a lot of cost cutting measures that have not been reversed.

I understand that Disney is a corperation and they have to make money. But, they were a corperation in the late 90's too, and they made money. I think the problem is that they saw they could make more money keeping the cuts in place and people still come.

I work in a customer service field and I used to use Disney as an example when conducting training classes. I no longer do.

 

[bicker]

It is all about the money.

Business is always about the money.

Keep in mind that many things have changed over the last few years. 10 years ago we had never even heard of "road rage". Now it is common. So the extent to which people are rude, even abusive, to others has increased. That's going to be reflected in quality of customer service, since customer-facing personnel now face a level of stress that they never encountered until recently.

I mentioned the Internet earlier. Besides skewing expectations all out of kilter, the Internet also has reduced the barriers to obtaining what economists call "perfect information". A customer can now, in just a few minutes, comparison shop among dozens of suppliers. The more efficient supplier, who can provide a product much closer to what the customer wants, with as little waste as possible, will succeed to a greater degree than the less efficient supplier, who seeks to satisfy customers by just arbitrarily adding costly features and services to their product offerings. Targeting what is offered to what customers actually value is critical. Those companies that do it will will survive. Those that don't will die. Disney actually had a very hard time getting a handle on all the stuff they were doing that was wasteful expense, but they have succeeded.

 

[Goofy4WDW1964]

Keep in mind that many things have changed over the last few years.

That is precisely the problem. They haven't changed for the better. Road rage has been around for as long as cars. It's just now, we have a label for it and it's presence in the media.

A customer can now, in just a few minutes, comparison shop among dozens of suppliers. The more efficient supplier, who can provide a product much closer to what the customer wants, with as little waste as possible, will succeed to a greater degree than the less efficient supplier, who seeks to satisfy customers by just arbitrarily adding costly features and services to their product offerings.

Maybe that is part of the problem. There isn't something comparible yet to WDW, yet. But don't think that there won't be. There didn't used to be anything comparible to Disney animation. Now we have Pixar. Customer service above and beyond used to be their trademark. It isn't anymore. Doesn't sound like they are keeping up to me. I attend a lot of seminars about service. Disney isn't mentioned as an example anymore. They've traded their future reputation for a quick buck today.

I myself hope they figure it out soon and get it corrected.

 

[bicker]

That is precisely the problem. They haven't changed for the better.

I meant that everything has changed; society has changed; the nature and manner of providing service has changed.

Road rage has been around for as long as cars. It's just now, we have a label for it and it's presence in the media.

No. Back when I first started driving, there was nothing like the kind of behavior we see on the roads today. The world has moved on, and for many things you're right, not in a good direction: The behavior of people, in general, has degraded sharply. Every aspect of life is affected by that.

There isn't something comparible yet to WDW, yet.

Having no competitor, in itself, I would consider a societal ill. There should never be only one "best" of anything, ever, IMHO. Being the best is a tenuous designation at best, because anything worth being the best at is worth others working to be a little better at. The reality is that Disney finally does have real competition in the theme park realm -- Universal, and to a much lesser extent, Busch Gardens. While Disney is still the best, by far, Universal, at least, is a strong contender. Good thing, too, because real-life measurement of how good Disney is has to be cast in terms of its comparison to Universal and the rest. Without competition to compare a supplier to, all there is is the trivial exercise of comparing a supplier to hopes or memories, neither of which are reasonable foundations for comparison.

There didn't used to be anything comparible to Disney animation. Now we have Pixar.

Yeah, animation is a three dog race now, and it isn't clear to me that Disney is the best there, at this moment. However, it is important to note that this isn't because of the budgetary-related cuts at Disney animation, but rather simply because Pixar is owned by specific people who have specific talent. Folks with that kind of special creativity are going to be much better off working for themselves than for a corporation, something which Walt Disney didn't have to contend with because of the studio system, and how he could keep great talent under his thumb or keep them from getting work.

Customer service above and beyond used to be their trademark.

And it still is. I think they simply define it based on what customers-in-general tell them it is, rather than based on what any one specific customer tells them it is.

 

[mitros]

Thanks Goofy, you saved me from doing a lot of typing {boy, do I hate typing! } Your two posts express my thoughts almost to a "T".

 

[mickey2000]

Thanks Goofy, you saved me from doing a lot of typing {boy, do I hate typing! } Your two posts express my thoughts almost to a "T".

Let me second that!!
I also remember 20 years ago when other corporations went to disney in order to attend conferences on "How to Run a Company". They covered many topics including customer service. Note, they no longer are the leader in this field as they have made many POOR decisions IMO. Disney Stores several years ago looked to others for help ( Gap store ). They tried everthing however nothing worked. So lease the store to someone for 10 years and see what they can do! Just look at thier merchandise , its now a toy store with childrens clothing. Remember when they had collectibles and other great items! Where is Disney's 3rd ship, it takes 3 years to build one? Its not because of the euro dollar its MONEY (stock holders)! Disney probably thinks, why invest if we can fill the two ships at top dollar! All the other cruise lines are building new modern super sized ships! Keep up with the times Disney, and build that new ship, people will also fill that if you come up with new destinations! Ever notice when Disney finds a good thing like pin collecting, or bean bags they over do it! They will milk it for every cent till it dies, and not know when to stop! Its only because I have been around Disney since 1971 that I feel this way. It has declined IMO for guests who have been going for a long time and have seen the changes over the years. Its not the same! The world is different. IMO Disney has lost the edge. Younger families have nothing long term to compare with so most are very happy. Even so, let me say that I will still love Disney and will return, as I'm a Disney nut!
PS hope I left a lot of good points to quote!

 

[bicker]

I also remember 20 years ago when other corporations went to disney in order to attend conferences on "How to Run a Company".

20 years ago I taught quality management, spreading the mantra that "Quality is Free", and projecting the message that satisfying customers "always" pays off.

I was wrong.

That entire movement has been discredited. The turning point was when, in one year, Wallace Industries won the National Quality Award, crowned as the paragon of quality and customer satisfaction, and in the next year, went out of business.

There is a cost for everything. Every action, every aspect of service, every allocation of resources, must be justified by specific and substantial contribution to long-term shareholder value, or the pursuit of quality is just an empty, useless, and worthless exercise. What we've learned since the Wallace Industries debacle is that quality for quality's sake is not a noble pursuit; quality in the interest of the objectives of the enterprise is.

 

[Laurajean1014]

This is a terrible write up. It makes us seem like we just whine about WDW all day long. There are wonderful conversations (WDW and non-related) that go on here. It sounds like the media was trying to "DIS" Disney and used this and other website as their scapegoats.................... SHame, Shame, Shame.

 

[raidermatt]

It is reasonable to schedule the hours for a food stand commensurate with patrons' willingness to pay a sufficient enough premium to support the food stand being open.

Once upon a time, Disney considered more than this. They believed that a closed food stand was bad Show, and Show was the primary focus. Certainly this concept has not been completely abandoned, but it does receive less emphasis. One can argue that Walt was mistaken to place such emphasis on Show, and that Disney is right to look at each individual stand as a profit center. I won't, but certainly one can. However, the inevitable result is that some will complain, which brings me to the next point... The Internet, and other such changes.

Yes, things have changed. Consumers are more savvy, information disseminates more quickly and freely.

These are the realities of doing business. One can survive, and even remain profitable by blaming these realities for their problems. Or, one can thrive and grow at a greater rate by finding ways to meet the demands of today's consumer.

May not be fair, may not be reasonable, but its reality.

Lastly, the idea that WDW has no competition is simply not true. Nor is their primary competition Universal. WDW is primarily a vacation resort destination. There are others. Hawaii, for example, is experiencing record levels of visitors, as is Central Florida in general. WDW, however, is not.

Yes, Universal is a competitor, as is Busch and SeaWorld to lesser extents, but its not only about theme parks.

 

[bicker]

Once upon a time, Disney considered more than this.

They shouldn't have been, IMHO. A customer-focused company should be focused on what customers value, not on some idealized image of perfection.

 

[raidermatt]

The belief was that the Show IS what the customers valued. They did pretty well with that business plan.

But don't take that to mean that a food stand that nobody patronized would stay open forever. Of course the issue had to be addressed. But there are ways to deal with the problem that don't damage the Show.

In black and white business school terms, the Show IS the product. Its what people paid money for at the gate. Its why the place was designed like movie sets. It WAS supposed to be an idealized image of perfection, BECAUSE the company believed that's what people wanted.

 

[manning]

Let's take "food stands not being open," as an example. It is reasonable to schedule the hours for a food stand commensurate with patrons' willingness to pay a sufficient enough premium to support the food stand being open. Disney's strength has always been listening to the customer. Listening to the customer means not only listening to them when they say, "I care about this!" -- it also means listening to the customer when they say, "I don't care much about that." That distinction has always been Disney's strength. What you may consider a lynchpin of an assertion of a "decline" I consider to be a hallmark of an assertion of acute sensitivity to what drives overall customer satisfaction. To operate any other way would be disrespectful to the legacy of the company, as it would undercut the company's ability to compete in the years to come, as we saw happen in the 1970s.

Do to cut backs, Disney has decided to not replace the batteries in the hearing aids. They feel this will not have an adverse effect on listening.

 

[manning]

Quality---- hmmm, isn't that where the Japanese beat the pants off us.

 

[Acklander]

Keep in mind that Disney changes because customers needs change. Since everyone is using the food stand as an example - I have some old guide books from the 80's that mention that that guests weren't allowed to bring food & drinks into the parks. Currently guests are now allowed to bring food & drink into the parks. Disney didn't make this change because the decided they didn't want to cook for the masses anymore. This was in response to customer actions and one of the side effects is that now you will have some food stands that close down earlier.
The writer of the article mentioned that eventually he was refunded for his entire stay. Yes, he had a bad trip but do you, the other guests, feel that it justified a complete refund? What he was refunded would have paid the salaray for one housekeeper for a month.
Disney is a business - it is required to make a profit to survive. This isn't optional. The services Disney is able to provide are directly related to what the customers are willing to spend. Look at all the posts on the Dis boards where people are asking where can they get discount tickets, why aren't more codes being released, why aren't the discounts as high as they were in previous years, and so on. Intermingled with the thousands of posts on how to save money are a few posts mentioning how trash isn't being cleaned up as quickly as it has in Walt's day. The customer is speaking loud and clear, and what they want is the most for the least amount of money.

 

[raidermatt]

Disney has always been a business. But at one time they were a business that did not complain about what the customer expectations were. They simply evaluated what the expectations were, accepted them as reality, and then strove to exceed them.

Disney is the one who chose to get into the world of discounts and coupons. Right or wrong, once you do that on any kind of scale, people are going to expect it. That's true of any industry.

Disney is also the one who set the expectation that the parks would be maintained in a near pristine manner. Again, right or wrong, once they set the bar, its done.

Even with the discounts out there, its been proven that people will pay a lot of money for the "Disney" experience. But when that experience starts to suffer, people are going to complain. Again, this is a reality of business.

Yes, Disney set the bar high, and its not easy to meet and exceed those expectations. But at the same time, they have made enormous sums of money BECAUSE they set the bar so high. There is no need to feel sorry for them. Its simply a matter of choice. If they want to reap the rewards, they will have to deal with the realities with which they are faced.

 

[bicker]

The belief was that the Show IS what the customers valued. ... It WAS supposed to be an idealized image of perfection, BECAUSE the company believed that's what people wanted.

Key word there is "was." That either never was the case, or is simply no longer the case. While many (but perhaps not even "most") customers "want" The Show, customers don't "value" The Show in the way you suggest the company once thought.

Quality---- hmmm, isn't that where the Japanese beat the pants off us.

Taught, incidentally, by an American: W. Edwards Deming. However, the Japanese, at least, never got lost in the mythology of believing anything that they couldn't see the evidence of. They didn't take anything on faith, but rather achieved their quality ascendancy by relying on data-driven management. There is no question that it was that success that changed the nature of business in America, as a result, and thereby made the environment inhospitable for the kind of company that the Disney brothers once ran.

do you, the other guests, feel that it justified a complete refund?

I wouldn't even focus on that. He was a newspaper reporter, and therefore had the capacity to foment a PR nightmare, and so perhaps evoked an atypical, patently unfair response from the company.

The customer is speaking loud and clear, and what they want is the most for the least amount of money.

Well said, Judy. This message is being projected in many places. On Cruise Critic and on rec.travel.cruises, folks bemoan the loss of the historic grandeur of cruising, as if it was something that cruise lines did to them, as opposed to the reality, it being something that cruise passengers in general did to the cruise lines. The airline industry is another great example. It used to be a very special, and enjoyable, experience flying to some other city. Now it is "cheap" and not such an enjoyable experience anymore. Passengers are choosing on price, to the exclusion of most other considerations, including comfort, including customer accommodation. Folks are choosing non-refundable deposits in the airline industry too, with $50, $75, $100, 50% and even 100% penalties for changes, in order to get the lowest fare, even at the risk that they'll lose their entire investment if they need to make a change.

Folks have been predicting the demise of Disney, due to changes in its service model, for decades. I participated in thread online, going back 18-19 years, where such predictions were made. There is no question that the folks making such predictions weren't happy about something. However, that clearly hasn't been reflective of what the general public cares about. People will continue to visit Disney theme parks, in ever-increasing record numbers, as long as Disney is the best, and they still are.

 

[mickey2000]

. ............

 

[raidermatt]

Key word there is "was." That either never was the case, or is simply no longer the case. While many (but perhaps not even "most") customers "want" The Show, customers don't "value" The Show in the way you suggest the company once thought.

Those professionals doing their jobs at Disney will tell you the Show is exteremely important. The issue is that while they still do a better job at it than most, they just don't do as good a job as they used to.

This isn't a case of the company thinking that's what customers valued. Disney was not wrong here. If they were, they wouldn't have experienced unprecedented and unduplicated success from day 1.

Strategically, the plan was brilliant, and an empire began. Of course they were not perfect, and tactical errors were made, but the overriding philosophy is what created the business we know as Disney.

If they ran it like everybody else, they would have achieved results like everybody else.

People will continue to visit Disney theme parks, in ever-increasing record numbers, as long as Disney is the best, and they still are.

Except others are setting records as we speak, while WDW is not.

But don't confuse a call for a strategy more in line with original Disney with a prediction that Disney is doomed. Sure, some equate the two. I don't. I simply say that if you run things like everybody else, in the long run, you'll achieve results like everybody else.

If that's satisfactory to you, then great. Again, I'll only remind you that we wouldn't be here discussing this company if that's how they had done things all along.