The Conservative - Liberal Debate Thread

[TCPluto]

Hmm TCPluto may want to read about IAFIS: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/iafis.htm

Your employment fingerprints are not in the AFIS system, sorry. Only criminal felony convictions.

 

[Fitswimmer]

What price would you put on that? Protect the Consitutional boundries at ALL costs?

I don't know John, what price would YOU put on the document that is the foundation of who we are as a nation?

How long before we become what we despise if we continue to compromise our principles?

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Show me how to prove a negative.

right after you show me how to prove if my calls were listen to through a random screening without a warrant or paper trail.

Thanks.
~amanda

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Okay so lets say I don't have a "file" (meaning ongoing tabs on me), believe me I lead a boring life.

Your employment fingerprints are not in the AFIS system, sorry. Only criminal felony convictions.

But the FBI does keep track off all the fingerprints it processes through IAFIS, unless the FBI is misinformed on its own website:

What are the IAFIS Services?

The five key IAFIS services are:

Ten-Print Based Fingerprint Identification Services

A ten-print fingerprint submission contains ten-rolled fingerprint impressions and corresponding flat fingerprint impressions.

Criminal Ten-Print Fingerprint Submission

Fingerprints are acquired as a result of an arrest at the city, county, state or federal level. The fingerprints are processed locally and then electronically forwarded to a state or other federal agency system for processing. The fingerprints are then electronically forwarded through the CJIS Wide Area Network (WAN) to the FBI's IAFIS for processing. Mailed ten-print fingerprint cards are converted to an electronic format for processing in the IAFIS environment.

Civil Ten-Print Fingerprint Submission

Fingerprints are acquired related to a background check for employment, licensing, and other non-criminal justice purposes where authorized by federal and state law and in compliance with appropriate regulations. (To determine what occupations are authorized within your state, contact your state police or your state criminal history repository). Like criminal fingerprints, civil fingerprints are processed by local, state or other federal agencies prior to being submitted to the IAFIS for processing.

Yeesh. Yes this is voluntary, I have no problems with it, but don't tell me the FBI doesn't keep people's information on file. And thanks for proving just how knowledgeable you are TCPluto.

Also the CJIS:

Mission: To reduce terrorist and criminal activities by maximizing the ability to provide timely and relevant criminal justice information to the FBI and to qualified law enforcement, criminal justice, civilian, academic, employment, and licensing agencies concerning individuals, stolen property, criminal organizations and activities, and other law enforcement related data.


History: The CJIS Division was established in February 1992 to serve as the focal point and central repository for criminal justice information services in the FBI. It is the largest division in the FBI. Programs initially consolidated under the CJIS Division include the National Crime Information Center (NCIC), Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR), and Fingerprint Identification. In addition, responsibility for several ongoing technological initiatives were also transferred to the CJIS Division, including the Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System (IAFIS), (NCIC 2000), and the National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS).

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread.

I'm done with this particular subject.

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Your employment fingerprints are not in the AFIS system, sorry. Only criminal felony convictions.

If you had read the site that is not at all what it says.

agencies receive electronic responses to criminal ten-print fingerprint submissions within two hours and within 24 hours for civil fingerprint submissions.

Why would they need civil fingerprint submissions if all they keep are criminal felony convictions?

~Amanda

 

[Chicago526]

What price would you put on that? Protect the Consitutional boundries at ALL costs?

I can't speak for Fitz, only myself but...

Yup!

You want to change the Constitution? Then change it! Add another amendment overiding rights given in the 4th (and/or any other ammendment that applies) that is voted on and ratified by the states, and be done with this. No more end runs around it with bills passed through Congress or worse, Presidential signing statements. I'm willing to bet not too many people, at the end of the day, are willing to vote away their rights. We couldn't even get the ERA ratified, I'm not holding my breath on giving up freedom from unreasonable search and seizure!

I'm not giving up my Constitutial rights on the off chance it might make me slightly safer. As Ben Franklin said "Those willing to give up Freedom in exchange for Security deserve neither".

 

[Charade]

I don't know John, what price would YOU put on the document that is the foundation of who we are as a nation?

I'll give you my answer when you think of an answer. Fair?

How long before we become what we despise if we continue to compromise our principles?

We are so far from the vision the founding fathers had for our country they wouldn't recognize it if we could bring them back from the dead today. And it didn't start on that path when Bush came to office (after 9-11 to be more specific).

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Okay so lets say I don't have a "file" (meaning ongoing tabs on me), believe me I lead a boring life.

But the FBI does keep track off all the fingerprints it processes through IAFIS:


Yeesh. Yes this is voluntary, I have no problems with it, but don't tell me the FBI doesn't keep people's information on file.

Also the CJIS:


Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread.

I'm done with this particular subject.

Seriously!

Notice that the fact that I can give examples of the Patriot Act infringing on innocent people has been completely ignored.

~Amanda

 

[TCPluto]

The last part no - I don't think they write up a report.

But I know of many people who had to have their backrounds checked and they went to the FBI to do it. Now granted they could just be checking to see if the person has a file or not. They could be checking to see how many times that person's background has been checked in the past.

From what I understand it is pretty easy to have an FBI file - not that much comes to it, but it is possible. Not to mention with Miss Jas and her husband's career I think it is fair to say that it is extremely likely they do have records.

I can't prove if they do or don't - and neither can you so stop acting so righteious because your high horse isn't living up to it.

~Amanda

How many times a person has had a background check conducted? That's of value to anyone how???? No one is keeping that statistic....

You understanding is completely off base and incorrect. Police officers, airport employees, etc. do not have FBI "files". Unless they are the subject of a criminal investigation, thenof course it's possible, jsut not likely. There are thousands of state and local criminal investigations to every one federal investigation. All those local investigations are not in any federal data base.

My "high horse" isn't living up to what exactly?

 

[Charade]

I can't speak for Fitz, only myself but...

Yup!

You want to change the Constitution? Then change it! Add another amendment overiding rights given in the 4th (and/or any other ammendment that applies) that is voted on and ratified by the states, and be done with this. No more end runs around it with bills passed through Congress or worse, Presidential signing statements.

I'm not giving up my Constitutial rights on the off chance it might make me slightly safer. As Ben Franklin said "Those willing to give up Freedom in exchange for Security deserve neither".

Then be prepared for anything.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Seriously!

Notice that the fact that I can give examples of the Patriot Act infringing on innocent people has been completely ignored.

~Amanda

That will be addressed right after we are told that we were correct about the fingerprints.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I'll give you my answer when you think of an answer. Fair?



We are so far from the vision the founding fathers had for our country they wouldn't recognize it if we could bring them back from the dead today. And it didn't start on that path when Bush came to office (after 9-11 to be more specific).

See post #326-it says it better than I could. I do not believe that compromising the Constitution makes us safer. I believe it makes us less than who we are.

Now-you can start thinking of your answer....

 

[Chicago526]

Then be prepared for anything.

You know, right after 9/11, when people were all, understandably, VERY freeked out, the news ran some stories about the lieklyhood of a US citizen dieing in a terrorist attack. I think (and I'm not sure, it was of course 6 years ago) it was in the billions.

I like those odds! I'll keep my rights, thanks. Feel free to give yours away, but leave mine alone.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

People who feel passionately one way or the other about this or any other issue, need to hold all of their elected officials accountable. You can debate all you want who got the ball rolling on this, but now it's time to look at members of Congress to enact the will of the people. JMHO

 

[chris1gill]

I don't know John, what price would YOU put on the document that is the foundation of who we are as a nation?

How long before we become what we despise if we continue to compromise our principles?

I've been gone slightly more than a week and there's a new thread.

Fitswimmer, if you haven't been paying attention, here's the news.... People ARE willing to give up their rights, any rights so that they can feel safer. Some people are so scared they believe anything and everything their President does is in their best interest.... So there is your answer. So just look at the reaction of the retraction of Habius Corpus, very few complaints, hardly anyone knows what it means.... very sad state when you look at it.

As for me, I know I'm on a list, when you receive call's from Pakistan 3am our time, I'm sure you get put on a list LOL.... yeh, I wish that the calls were like 3pm our time but friends call when they call.... I try to remind them of the time change!

I've already held a security clearance, so lord knows they've got my fingerprints LOL..... what they'd want them for I have no idea...

 

[Fitswimmer]

People who feel passionately one way or the other about this or any other issue, need to hold all of their elected officials accountable. You can debate all you want who got the ball rolling on this, but now it's time to look at members of Congress to enact the will of the people. JMHO

Well, I thought I did that in 2006....

 

[SwedishMeatball]

Well, I thought I did that in 2006....

I wonder if there is polling data on where the will of the people leans towards at this time.

 

[TCPluto]

But the FBI does keep track off all the fingerprints it processes through IAFIS, unless the FBI is misinformed on its own website:

Nope. You have a basic misunderstanding of what you've read.

Your fingerprints were submitted to compare with the AFIS data base, they weren't made part of the data base.

Example:
A police officer investigates a crime where he obtains a latent fingerprint. He has no suspect. He submits it for an AFIS search. No hits, but the unknown fingerprint is retained in AFIS.

Ten years later you apply for a job, submit fingerprints which are submitted to AFIS. A match is made on the 10 year old latent print the officer submitted previously. Now we have a person to go with the print!

Hardly a concern for the law abiiding citizen.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

I've been gone slightly more than a week and there's a new thread.

Fitswimmer, if you haven't been paying attention, here's the news.... People ARE willing to give up their rights, any rights so that they can feel safer. Some people are so scared they believe anything and everything their President does is in their best interest.... So there is your answer. So just look at the reaction of the retraction of Habius Corpus, very few complaints, hardly anyone knows what it means.... very sad state when you look at it.

As for me, I know I'm on a list, when you receive call's from Pakistan 3am our time, I'm sure you get put on a list LOL.... yeh, I wish that the calls were like 3pm our time but friends call when they call.... I try to remind them of the time change!

I've already held a security clearance, so lord knows they've got my fingerprints LOL..... what they'd want them for I have no idea...

They probably monitor all your DISboard posts as well.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I've been gone slightly more than a week and there's a new thread.

Fitswimmer, if you haven't been paying attention, here's the news.... People ARE willing to give up their rights, any rights so that they can feel safer. Some people are so scared they believe anything and everything their President does is in their best interest.... So there is your answer. So just look at the reaction of the retraction of Habius Corpus, very few complaints, hardly anyone knows what it means.... very sad state when you look at it.

As for me, I know I'm on a list, when you receive call's from Pakistan 3am our time, I'm sure you get put on a list LOL.... yeh, I wish that the calls were like 3pm our time but friends call when they call.... I try to remind them of the time change!

I've already held a security clearance, so lord knows they've got my fingerprints LOL..... what they'd want them for I have no idea...

They've got my prints too, I worked for the DOD!

this is one of those issues that I can't believe people aren't outraged over. I just don't see why it's labeled a "Democrat" or "Liberal" issue-it's not. It's an AMERICAN issue.