The Conservative - Liberal Debate Thread

[momto2girls]

If liberals are calling you a liar for saying everyone in your experience is doing well, that is wrong. But are they calling you a liar, or saying their experience is different? I would like to have pointed out to me where someone called you a liar for a varied experience.

I can't find the thread right now. I looked through a few threads in my subscriptions, but it wasn't in the ones I thought it might be. My subscriptions are miles long because I often subscribe to threads even when I don't post on them. If I locate it, I will post a link.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

.....

And do conservatives and fundies really interfere with your life in such a significant way that you're uncomfortable living in their midst?

Why yes. Yes, they do.

 

[chobie]

Because Im american, my realtives negative expeience with the system is of no value??? Gotcha!

Stop taking it personally and letting your emotions take over. Logically, it makes sense that I would value the opinion of a person speaking for his/her self than somebody speaking for someone else.

 

[TCPluto]

Stop taking it personally and letting your emotions take over. Logically, it makes sense that I would value the opinion of a person speaking for his/her self than somebody speaking for someone else.

Oh my,you're reading something that isn't there.

Logically, I'd love to have you speak to her, but because of the inept health care system in Canada, that won't be possible.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Anyone that is self employed believes the 50% without question.

For every dollar I make I have to put 40% away for taxes (fed, state and SS). Then I still have to pay sales tax, gas tax, property tax, gov fees, etc.

Amen! When you write that quarterly check you have no delusion about the huge bite taxes take.

 

[eclectics]

Amen! When you write that quarterly check you have no delusion about the huge bite taxes take.

I have to wonder how many things that taxes pay for are taken for granted everyday in ones life. Cutting taxes or taking them away also means taking away the services and goods they pay for. Can you honestly say that merely trimming govt. spending is going to be enough to make up the shortfall?

"Especially now with a recession looming, is not the time to cut taxes"....and that quote is not mine, it's Ben Steins..... hardly a liberal activist.

 

[momto2girls]

Amen! When you write that quarterly check you have no delusion about the huge bite taxes take.

I totally agree! Writing that check definitely means you can't pretend it isn't so. It is brutally painful!

 

[Charade]

Why yes. Yes, they do.

Elaborate please.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Can you honestly say that merely trimming govt. spending is going to be enough to make up the shortfall?

It'd be a nice start. Combine lower spending with economic growth spurred by tax cuts and you've got yourself the makings of a nice upturn in the economic cycle. What's been missing in that recipe lately? Lower spending.

 

[connorlevismom]

Again, I'll take the opinions of people speaking for themselves such as those Canadians that posted here.

I rest my case.

She CLEARLY stated that this person was a RELATIVE. But you are going to take the opinion of someone on a message board that you have never met? I too have a friend (in Canada) who's father died last year because he had to wait so long for his testing and procedures to be done. But by god, if someone here tells me that is not true, then I must be making it all up.

Ok then!

Kristine

 

[Chloe'sMom]

I rest my case.

She CLEARLY stated that this person was a RELATIVE. But you are going to take the opinion of someone on a message board that you have never met? I too have a friend (in Canada) who's father died last year because he had to wait so long for his testing and procedures to be done. But by god, if someone here tells me that is not true, then I must be making it all up.

Ok then!

Kristine

I don't doubt you.

The problem with using one example or two is that can you really use these to summarize an entire countries medical community?

I have 2 friends who live in Canada and who I talk to on a daily basis - they are more then happy with their medical coverage and the care they have received. One has given birth to 4 children - one born with serious birth defects that she was treated for and made a full recovery.

Does my example negate your's? Absolutely not.

In truth the Canadian health care system is not something I am fully educated on, and I find most Americans are not. Usually (like myself) they know someone, or know of someone. The system which is rather large to support an entire country is going to have it's flaws, I've never heard of it referred to being perfect. I think it is probably very much equal to our own health care - I can tell you I've always received quality care, but my aunt after her back surgery pratically died after receiving poor care. Or my cousin who was sent home with a baby with a serious heart condition the hospital didn't catch because they were booted out of the hospital after 24 hours and then had to be in the hospitals intensive care unit and have emergency heart surgery - on a 6 week old!

What scares me about our health care problem is that - 1) how one accident may cause a person may go bankrupt. The cost for care is so out of control because Dr's carry such high insurance coverage to protect themselves from being sued. That 2)Our health insurance industry is more concerned about their stock holders then they are about the people they cover. to me health care should not be about making profit. And 3) That because of the cost of practicing medicine many good doctors go into elective surgeries (plastic surger) instead of practicting other area sof medicine.

~Amanda

 

[eclectics]

I rest my case.

She CLEARLY stated that this person was a RELATIVE. But you are going to take the opinion of someone on a message board that you have never met? I too have a friend (in Canada) who's father died last year because he had to wait so long for his testing and procedures to be done. But by god, if someone here tells me that is not true, then I must be making it all up.

Ok then!

Kristine

In all the years I've been a part of this debate here, there has never been a thread where there have been more first hand recipients of UHC that had a bad experience as opposed to those who approved of their care. Never. Now the DIS is hardly a definitive study, but it's certainly a good cross section slice of people from countries that offer it, such as Canada, The UK, Europe, and Scandinavia. Of the people who actually experience it and post here, the majority has always had positive things to say about it.

 

[TCPluto]

I rest my case. She CLEARLY stated that this person was a RELATIVE. But you are going to take the opinion of someone on a message board that you have never met? I too have a friend (in Canada) who's father died last year because he had to wait so long for his testing and procedures to be done. But by god, if someone here tells me that is not true, then I must be making it all up.

Ok then!

Kristine

And they proved your point quite quickly at that.

 

[eclectics]

It'd be a nice start. Combine lower spending with economic growth spurred by tax cuts and you've got yourself the makings of a nice upturn in the economic cycle. What's been missing in that recipe lately? Lower spending.

So where is the economic growth that the Bush tax cuts have given us? I don't see many benefits. We're, by most accounts, headed for a recession instead. Quite the opposite of your upturn theory. And while lower spending would be a nice start, it's a drop in the bucket to what we owe and what we will continue to rack up in debt. Every economist I have listened to is urging consumers to take their tax rebate and either save it or pay down their personal debt. Hardly what Mr. Bush envisioned, I'm sure.

 

[yeartolate]

I can't find the thread right now. I looked through a few threads in my subscriptions, but it wasn't in the ones I thought it might be. My subscriptions are miles long because I often subscribe to threads even when I don't post on them. If I locate it, I will post a link.

If you find them, I would like to know, because I will tell them to cut the crap myself.

But frankly, what I generally see is people who have two separate sets of experiences - that is the fight - I do not recall every having one person call another a liar (about these specific issues) I have seen this presented as an argument before, but nobody can ever back it up. I do not doubt that there are isolated experiences of one calling another a liar over these issues, but with the way it has been portrayed, it is a regular occurance. If it is a regular experience, it should be easy to find a number of examples.


I am not calling you a liar, but maybe you perceive two people having two separate experiences as being mutually exclusive, when it is possible for both to co-exist.

Frankly, when I see "libs always" and "conservatives always" I pretty much shut down.

 

[What the Heck]

So where is the economic growth that the Bush tax cuts have given us? I don't see many benefits. We're, by most accounts, headed for a recession instead. Quite the opposite of your upturn theory. And while lower spending would be a nice start, it's a drop in the bucket to what we owe and what we will continue to rack up in debt. Every economist I have listened to is urging consumers to take their tax rebate and either save it or pay down their personal debt. Hardly what Mr. Bush envisioned, I'm sure.

Perhaps because the lower spending part of his trilogy wasn't there, because we are at war? I also note that you completely ignore the clear recession we were headed for that started in November of 2000, more than 2 months before Georgie took office. Now if memory serves me, there was another president in office, can't remember his name because he is so shy and stays out of the limelight. You know, the ones the people from the left always hail as being so great for the economy.

 

[brerrabbit]

I don't have to go on anybody's opinion of Canadian healthcare because I lived in and worked in Canada. We lived in Alberta and paid Alberta Healthcare Insurance premiums of $54.00 Canadian a month. For that amount we never had to pay to see a doctor. At the time my kids were 3 and 8 years old and had all the normal things happening. My wife would take them to the doctor, flash the insurance card and there was no charge. It was a great system. I spoke with natives who praised the system. A gentleman I worked with was diagnosed with a heart problem and had triple bypass surgery, six months of physical therapy and never paid a cent. He thought it was great. Another neighbor had a mother who had been waiting 4 years for a hip replacement and they thought the system stunk. Granted the cost for the coverage was wonderful but at what cost. The marginal income tax rate in Alberta was 49.9% and you got virtually no deductions. There was no mortgage interest deductions, a small IRA type deduction and that was about it. Every payday 50% of your check went to the government and it was not coming back in the form of a refund next April. It had its goods and its bads just like any other system but came at a steep price with little choice.

 

[Charade]

I don't have to go on anybody's opinion of Canadian healthcare because I lived in and worked in Canada. We lived in Alberta and paid Alberta Healthcare Insurance premiums of $54.00 Canadian a month. For that amount we never had to pay to see a doctor. At the time my kids were 3 and 8 years old and had all the normal things happening. My wife would take them to the doctor, flash the insurance card and there was no charge. It was a great system. I spoke with natives who praised the system. A gentleman I worked with was diagnosed with a heart problem and had triple bypass surgery, six months of physical therapy and never paid a cent. He thought it was great. Another neighbor had a mother who had been waiting 4 years for a hip replacement and they thought the system stunk. Granted the cost for the coverage was wonderful but at what cost. The marginal income tax rate in Alberta was 49.9% and you got virtually no deductions. There was no mortgage interest deductions, a small IRA type deduction and that was about it. Every payday 50% of your check went to the government and it was not coming back in the form of a refund next April. It had its goods and its bads just like any other system but came at a steep price with little choice.

But it was free!

And, if I'm not mistaken, they don't have complete care, just medical. They have to carry supplemental insurance for dental.

I think we should have ULI. Universal Life Insurance.

 

[eclectics]

Perhaps because the lower spending part of his trilogy wasn't there, because we are at war? I also note that you completely ignore the clear recession we were headed for that started in November of 2000, more than 2 months before Georgie took office. Now if memory serves me, there was another president in office, can't remember his name because he is so shy and stays out of the limelight. You know, the ones the people from the left always hail as being so great for the economy.

I didn't say that Bush himself created the recession. I said his tax cuts didn't help the economy, especially now that we are heading into recession mode. Presidents don't "create" good or bad economies but their policies go a good long way in affecting the daily hum the economy has. And I apologize for ignoring Clinton. I didn't realize he automatically had to be brought up in every thread.

 

[yasmina]

Subscribing until I decide to jump in