The CMs were Worried About Alligator Problem

[STLstone]

Hypothetical:

If you lived in Florida, on a fresh water lake, and you had relatives with small children visiting from out of state, would you feel any obligation to warn them about the possible danger of alligators?

Not, "are you legally responsible?" Not, "are you negligent for living on a lake?" But do you feel any obligation whatsoever to warn them?

 

[NYUBwayBaby]

This article talking about liability was pretty good, I thought. Doesn't answer yes or no on whether Disney will be considered liable.

 

[dlavender]

Hypothetical:

If you lived in Florida, on a fresh water lake, and you had relatives with small children visiting from out of state, would you feel any obligation to warn them about the possible danger of alligators?

Not, "are you legally responsible?" Not, "are you negligent for living on a lake?" But do you feel any obligation whatsoever to warn them?

I grew up on a smaller lake in central Florida. We would ALWAYS tell people that there WERE alligators in the lake, and to be cautious. Sometimes people would refrain from swimming/tubing, other water activities. But that was ok! We wanted people to know the risk, and really to just be extra vigilant. Didn't want to bring a birthday party down, but just felt it was the right thing to do. Some people would say, duh, and some people would say, really?

If you had an exposed live wire somewhere, wouldn't you tell someone? Some people say common sense isn't that common, well the same is true for common courtesy, I guess.....

 

[Jess_S]

This article talking about liability was pretty good, I thought. Doesn't answer yes or no on whether Disney will be considered liable.

Thank you for posting. I hadn't read this one yet. As an attorney, I find the legal aspect of the case interesting (even though as a parent I find the facts horrifying and unthinkable).

I sense that there are some that take issue with my "legally responsible" language, but the reason I used that language is because being negligent has a specific legal meaning. If Disney was "negligent," then they are legally responsible for baby Lane's death. If they weren't "negligent," then they are not. That's a separate question from what people may or may not think Disney's moral obligations are. The example my professor used in torts (i.e. civil wrongs) is that if you come across a child drowning in a puddle and can save him by merely picking him up and fail to do so, under the common law you have no legal obligation to pick up the child unless you caused him to fall into the puddle. Obviously, you would be a monstrous person if you stepped over the kid and went on your way, but you couldn't be sued in most places.

I'm sure that Disney is kicking themselves now for not having a specific gator warning up, but I still withhold judgment at this point about whether I feel they breached any moral or legal obligation.

 

[mshanson3121]

Hypothetical:

If you lived in Florida, on a fresh water lake, and you had relatives with small children visiting from out of state, would you feel any obligation to warn them about the possible danger of alligators?

Not, "are you legally responsible?" Not, "are you negligent for living on a lake?" But do you feel any obligation whatsoever to warn them?

Absolutely. It's the right thing to do.

 

[sarah4770]

Disney knew there were alligators in the lagoon. I think they had a duty to warn.

 

[mshanson3121]

FWC says that the chance of an alligator attack in the state of Florida is 1 in over 2 million. Given that Disney has programs in place to remove alligators and the amount of people that visit WDW, the chance of one happening on Disney grounds is far less.

Also some wrong information in your post. Smaller gators can pick up a little speed but can only run in a straight line. Larger gators(bigger than 6 ft) that would be able to attack bigger prey can not run fast. Their tiny legs can not support their weight. All their power is in the tail. Also gators do not attack prey on land. If on land, they will become defensive and swing their body in hopes are knocking you back or catching you with a lunge. An attack will take place by the water line where they can use their tail to thrust out of the water.

Correction. It says the chance of an attack inflicting serious harm is 1 in 2,000,000. The chance of being attacked with minor harm is higher. The chance of being approached or chased by an alligator, much higher.

 

[romitaz]

Correction. It says the chance of an attack inflicting serious harm is 1 in 2,000,000. The chance of being attacked with minor harm is higher. The chance of being approached or chased by an alligator, much higher.

And where are you getting these numbers from? Thin air, your personal feelings, or Wikipedia(the same thing)?

 

[mshanson3121]

nm

 

[STLstone]

Thank you for posting. I hadn't read this one yet. As an attorney, I find the legal aspect of the case interesting (even though as a parent I find the facts horrifying and unthinkable).

I sense that there are some that take issue with my "legally responsible" language, but the reason I used that language is because being negligent has a specific legal meaning. If Disney was "negligent," then they are legally responsible for baby Lane's death. If they weren't "negligent," then they are not. That's a separate question from what people may or may not think Disney's moral obligations are. The example my professor used in torts (i.e. civil wrongs) is that if you come across a child drowning in a puddle and can save him by merely picking him up and fail to do so, under the common law you have no legal obligation to pick up the child unless you caused him to fall into the puddle. Obviously, you would be a monstrous person if you stepped over the kid and went on your way, but you couldn't be sued in most places.

I'm sure that Disney is kicking themselves now for not having a specific gator warning up, but I still withhold judgment at this point about whether I feel they breached any moral or legal obligation.

That probably doesn't apply the same way if the puddle was created by you, on your property. You probably have some legal obligation to prevent the child from falling in it, or pull him out when he does, in that case.

 

[mshanson3121]

And where are you getting these numbers from? Thin air, your personal feelings, or Wikipedia(the same thing)?

Despite your rude comment, I'll reply.

The statistics came from CNN. They were in a sidebar on one of the articles about the boy. Google it yourself.

From Florida Fish & Wildlife Commision:

- More than 16,000 complaints re: alligators are received a year
- There have been an average of 10 bites per year in the last 8 years
- Alligator attacks are 4x as likely to be fatal as shark attacks
- Even small alligators (less than 4') can cause injury
- Alligators are a growing problem due to growing population in Florida which is encroaching on their land, and also due to growing alligator population

 

[romitaz]

Despite your rude comment, I'll reply.

The statistics came from CNN. They were in a sidebar on one of the articles about the boy. Google it yourself.

From Florida Fish & Wildlife Commision:

- More than 16,000 complaints re: alligators are received a year
- There have been an average of 10 bites per year in the last 8 years
- Alligator attacks are 4x as likely to be fatal as shark attacks
- Even small alligators (less than 4') can cause injury
- Alligators are a growing problem due to growing population in Florida which is encroaching on their land, and also due to growing alligator population

Ok, now, where in all of that does it give the stats you gave about the chance of minor wounds vs serious injury? Yes, a minor wound is much more likely because that's what happens the most often,but the stats do not differentiate between minor or major. One more thing about those stats, the highest percentage(17%) of injuries have come from people harrassing the alligator. You have the would be alligator wrestler or the guy that thinks he should be on Swamp People out there getting injured by their own stupidity.

 

[NYUBwayBaby]

Despite your rude comment, I'll reply.

The statistics came from CNN. They were in a sidebar on one of the articles about the boy. Google it yourself.

From Florida Fish & Wildlife Commision:

- More than 16,000 complaints re: alligators are received a year
- There have been an average of 10 bites per year in the last 8 years
- Alligator attacks are 4x as likely to be fatal as shark attacks
- Even small alligators (less than 4') can cause injury
- Alligators are a growing problem due to growing population in Florida which is encroaching on their land, and also due to growing alligator population

I do just want to point out that complaint does not equal attack. Or even if the gator was chasing someone. It could be in a pool, or a large gator in a stream near some houses, on the road, things like that. We had a four footer in our neighborhood and therefore someone could have made a complaint, but it left on its own after a day. But that's also what our state tells us to do- not posing an obvious threat? Wait a few days to call. Chances are it'll leave before then. My SO has seen more roadkill gators than live ones.

 

[angelmav]

I have really been shocked at the people doing mental gymnastics to try and find a way in which it was excusable for Disney NOT to have warning signs. The only thing I can come up with, is a desperate desire to hang onto the thought that the Disney bubble still exists. That this was somehow a 1 in a billion occurrence to which no blame can be assigned. That somehow a trip to the Grand Floridian requires the same type of extensive planning and training as scaling Mt. Everest, and anything short of that falls on personal responsibility.

Except, this happened before. That family sued Disney for failing to warn of the danger. Disney settled. And nothing changed.

 

[englishrose47]

I live in Niagara Falls , no gaters , but very treacherous waters above and below the Falls , these are fenced off and warnings are all over but every year at least 1 out of town tourist succumbs to those waters , most residents know how dangerous they are . While this is not an alligator , the message is the same DANGER!! Don't ignore it .!!

 

[mshanson3121]

Ok, now, where in all of that does it give the stats you gave about the chance of minor wounds vs serious injury?

It doesn't. If you had paid attention, you would have read the following: The statistics came from CNN. They were in a sidebar on one of the articles about the boy. Google it yourself.

I do just want to point out that complaint does not equal attack.

Nowhere did I say it did.

I have really been shocked at the people doing mental gymnastics to try and find a way in which it was excusable for Disney NOT to have warning signs. The only thing I can come up with, is a desperate desire to hang onto the thought that the Disney bubble still exists. That this was somehow a 1 in a billion occurrence to which no blame can be assigned. That somehow a trip to the Grand Floridian requires the same type of extensive planning and training as scaling Mt. Everest, and anything short of that falls on personal responsibility.

Except, this happened before. That family sued Disney for failing to warn of the danger. Disney settled. And nothing changed.

Exactly. Amazing how many people want to make excuses for Disney.

 

[romitaz]

I have really been shocked at the people doing mental gymnastics to try and find a way in which it was excusable for Disney NOT to have warning signs. The only thing I can come up with, is a desperate desire to hang onto the thought that the Disney bubble still exists. That this was somehow a 1 in a billion occurrence to which no blame can be assigned. That somehow a trip to the Grand Floridian requires the same type of extensive planning and training as scaling Mt. Everest, and anything short of that falls on personal responsibility.

Except, this happened before. That family sued Disney for failing to warn of the danger. Disney settled. And nothing changed.

No one is making excuses for Disney. The burning desire to point a finger so that one feels better about themselves is distasteful in the least and downright sad. The thing is, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT NO ONE WAS TO BLAME. Accidents happen. Even horrible ones. The risk was so negligible that it was not considered a real threat. When the spiders in the grass are of a greater risk than an alligator, some need to put thier pitchforks down and get a little sense of perspective. 70 people die every year from spider bites. 17 have died in the US since 1948 of alligator attacks. Is all well and good to fly off the handle and scream at the rooftops "for shame!" It does not do a single bit of good and most likely more harm.

 

[cruisingtwins]

No one is making excuses for Disney. The burning desire to point a finger so that one feels better about themselves is distasteful in the least and downright sad. The thing is, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT NO ONE WAS TO BLAME. Accidents happen. Even horrible ones. The risk was so negligible that it was not considered a real threat. When the spiders in the grass are of a greater risk than an alligator, some need to put thier pitchforks down and get a little sense of perspective. 70 people die every year from spider bites. 17 have died in the US since 1948 of alligator attacks. Is all well and good to fly off the handle and scream at the rooftops "for shame!" It does not do a single bit of good and most likely more harm.

In this case I don't think it's possible to say no one was to blame sorry.

 

[romitaz]

In this case I don't think it's possible to say no one was to blame sorry.

Because you are looking for someone to blame. Many are practically begging for it. Classic kneejerk reaction. If no one is the boogyman, how can we punish them? Someone MUST be punished! It messes with the sense of right and wrong. Something horrible happened. We MUST blame someone. It happens with every tragedy. It's also easier to blame a nameless faceless entity(Disney) than to look within themselves and realize that stuff happens. Bad stuff happens to good and bad people alike. It's life.

 

[StanH]

I do not care which flyover state you live in ( I live in one myself), unless you are ignorant, a hermit, or willfully uneducated, you know that alligators exist in the waters of Florida....Period.
I don't need a sign warning me of earthquakes in California, tornadoes in Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas, etc., floods and hurricanes (not to mention gators) in Texas, Louisianna, et al...Puhlease. Personal responsibility, no matter how tragic the consequences, play a significant part in how our lives play out.

Stop being a victim.