The CMs were Worried About Alligator Problem

[lockedoutlogic]

Nope. Not a species that thrives in climates as dry as most of Kansas and Nebraska as far as I'm aware. Water moccasins are snakes I learned about as preferring to live in swampy areas. Kansas and Nebraska are very lacking in that type of terrain.



Rattlers, heck yes, but not lurking about in water or nearby waiting to strike. They prefer sunny bluffs with cracks they can crawl into if they get too warm.

Nope. Never saw a copperhead or heard of anyone who had. Did a bit of googling and found they inhabit only one county in Eastern KS and the far southeastern corner of NE.



Much less often than that, I expect, since rattlesnakes usually only strike if you happen onto one unexpectedly. That's why kids learn to make a lot of noise if they're exploring hilly places. Rattlers are much more eager to escape people than go after them.

ETA: I lived in Kansas nearly sixty years, just so you know I'm quite familiar with what it's like there. As a kid, used to wander around a creek about a quarter mile from my home, which is where I learned to walk noisily because there might well be rattlesnakes in the dry grassland above the creek.

I think the Point is that there are natural dangers everywhere...

And I wouldn't expect the Hotel I'm staying at to give me a speech. Maybe the warning signs...yes...but not hand hold me to tell me (bad pun) that I'm "not in Kansas anymore".

I just can only lay so much blame on Disney here.

If we were to expect them to eliminate this threat...then they'd have to shut it down. Anyone suggesting that?

 

[Her Dotness]

LOL! And with my first name being Dorothy, if ONLY I had a buck for every time I've heard "not in Kansas anymore" or "Where's your little dog Toto?" I'd be writing this from my mansion in Scottsdale, AZ or vacation home in Celebration, FL. (Admittedly not the latter since I can't deal with FL humidity.)

 

[Silock]

Nope. Never saw a copperhead or heard of anyone who had. Did a bit of googling and found they inhabit only one county in Eastern KS and the far southeastern corner of NE.

Just an FYI, there are copperheads ALL OVER eastern KS.

 

[Her Dotness]

Okay. I stand corrected.

I grew up in far Western KS and only visited the eastern half now and then, mostly to go to ballgames at KU or K State.

Guess the wildlife info site I checked had it wrong about only Douglas Co. having a notable number of copperheads.

All I know is that they weren't a concern in the dry prairies of the western two-thirds of the state where I lived my entire life until eight years ago.

 

[mickeysgirl17]

It just sucks. To see Disney had their chance back in the 80's to fix the problem (without a fatality) and just....didn't. It was such an easy fix. A few signs. Sigh.....

I love Disney with all my heart but man.....dropped.....the.....ball.

I couldn't agree with you more! I love Disney as well, but I do put some of the blame on them regarding this alligator situation. If they have had incidents before, and alligators have been popping up around their parks, their rides, their beaches...something should of been done already. CMs have reporting seeing them. Guests have reported seeing them. Something like this was bound to happen....and if the family sues them, I think the family will win. There should of been better signage 100%. Disney obviously knows they have people coming in to their resorts from all over the world. Not everyone is going to know about there being alligators all over the place in FL. Sad that it took this terrible tragedy to happen for the proper signage to finally go up.

 

[StuckInKS]

I expect people to be responsible for themselves at all times...no matter what there surroundings are.

Especially with the wealth of information available in a millisecond via touchscreen

I have never wished for a dislike button on the disboards as much as I do right now. I cannot believe you, who is up Disney's you-know-what about everything on these boards is giving them such a pass on this one. Seriously, every post I have ever seen from you is some kind of rant/snark against the Disney Co. and THIS is what you decide is OK?

I not only do I blame Disney for this tragedy, I am furious at them for my own family. I've never let my kids in the water for a variety of reasons, but we have been near it numerous times, including several times for the three weeks leading up to this event. If I would have know there are a bunch of gators in it, we would have been no where near it, not even on a walking trail going past it in the broad daylight. Sorry, I don't take risks (even small ones) lightly. But being from the midwest, I have no knowledge of gators and have never seen one in seven whole trips to WDW, so I truly had no idea they were there (in WDW, not FL as a whole, I expect them in the Everglades but not in developed areas). I am glad the signs are going up, but they should have been there from the beginning, despite what Disney thinks it would have done for its image of being safe.

 

[Silock]

Okay. I stand corrected.

I grew up in far Western KS and only visited the eastern half now and then, mostly to go to ballgames at KU or K State.

Guess the wildlife info site I checked had it wrong about only Douglas Co. having a notable number of copperheads.

All I know is that they weren't a concern in the dry prairies of the western two-thirds of the state where I lived my entire life until eight years ago.

They may not have been. I dunno. I just know that growing up here since about '88, I've always been warned about copperheads. Haven't seen too many, but there was a rash of sightings and a fatal bite for a dog at the local dog park either last year or the year before. Seems like it's been a lot hotter here in the past few years than it used to be, which may be why there are more now than there used to be. Or maybe I just hear about them more now.

 

[PBB]

WDW has many issues fighting against them in this tragedy. I do believe Disney is responsible for a majority of the blame for this incident. Here is a photo from our trip last October at the bridge in front of Splash Mountain. I know I have seen a gator under this bridge at least 10 times over various trips. Obviously not the same gator but this is where they used to have the Turkey Leg cart. 8/10 times I have seen people tossing Turkey Leg scraps to them. I worked on a project at WDW and one of the Imagineers and saw a family feeding a gator and he told me what a problem it had become. The had trappers in every night trying to catch them. They aren't easy to catch. They can't catch them during park hours so they have a limited amount of time to get them.

WDW knows how to make signs that warn people. Heck, at the entrance of every E Ticket ride there is a warning sign WDW Patrons that only Disney Attorney's could appreciate. I believe the roller coasters signs (especially Space Mountain and Primeval Whirl) are sponsored by the American Back Surgeons Association. You have to look at the small print to confirm,LOL. (Sorry for the small amount of humor)

The beaches are made and maintained by WDW. They are not natural to the lakes. I can promise every resort landscape/maintenance CM will testify about gator tracks in the sand almost every morning. The fact they draw people to the beach with movies, electrical water pageant, fireworks,etc.

Also, I have found that CM's are very passive in stopping children and parents from doing something even if it is wrong. We were at TOW lounge at BLT with 2 young children bouncing on an ottoman screaming at the top of their lungs and Mom and Dad sat their and did nothing letting them go. The waitress commented that management will no step in and tell a parent to get control of their child. I have to believe a similar thing occured at this tragic event. The child was in the water a few feet from shore and no CM was going to say something to Mom and Dad in fear of being yelled at by an irate customer and then a manager.

We all know Florida and Gator go hand in hand. Heck, How many times have the "Florida Gators" been National Champions for NCAA Football and Basketball?? How many people walk by every day in the park with a blue/orange shirt that says Florida Gators. The Orange County Sheriff put it correctly when asked what the parents were doing? They were vacationing..........we are all guilty of letting our guard down at WDW. These poor people will be punished for the balance of their life.

I do believe a simple sign on the beach would have made a huge difference. If Disney CM's were close by they should have warned the parents. I remember how active the beaches were at Poly and Contemporary in the 70's I remember swimming in the lake area at River Country water park as well. They had a zip line over the water. It is remarkable that this was only the 2nd attack since WDW opened.

 

[Her Dotness]

Ah, I see on your profile you're in KC, Silock.

Yup, can believe there could be copperheads there. They like moist wooded areas, I remember learning. KC is lots more like here in St. Louis than like my little KS hometown.

Nothing much for woods west of Topeka. Way too dry for trees to survive unless along a creek or planted and watered by people such as in windbreaks or in towns.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program before the OT sheriff comes after me. Uh-oh. Too late.

 

[Caseheidi]

That being said, after even one incident like the one that happened in the 80's I believe it was negligent on Disney's part not to include SPECIFIC sign warnings - No Swimming no way implies - watch out as your child could get bit by an alligator at the water's edge!!! No swimming also does not imply you can't walk in the water. I predict a multi-million dollar lawsuit in the making - not that all the money in the world could comfort that poor family - their pain and loss will never end. Negligence - yes especially considering how nearby non-Disney hotels had specific sign warnings for alligators & snakes. Sorry, you can't expect out of state or out of country guests to know about these types of dangers.

I expect the major difference is that in 1986 there was no Social Media to spread the news far and wide. This event was spread throughout the world befor they even found the child's body. I doubt the event in '86 even made it across the U.S. Back then.

Also, people are much more paranoid and less likely to believe that they are responsible for their own actions now then 30 years ago. I see in the news all the time how it is the city/States/Companies/Schools fault that Some person did something unsafe causing something bad to happen and they blame and sue the person responsible for the area they were in. For example, near where I live, a family was at a lake last summer and their 3 yr old died, as well as two family members trying to find him, from swimming when there was a drop off in the water. While there were signs posting reminding people to use life jackets, and even life jackets provided for free, the famil sued the county because there were no signs posted about the drop off. While this was a horrible thing to happen, where was the families accountability for not having a 3 yr old in a life vest and letting home play several feet out in a muddy lake alone?

I am in no way blaming the parents of this young boy. They did not realize the danger of having their son in the water, and many children were safe over the years at that same place. It is a terrible thing that happened. Should Disney have had signs up? Probably. But I still don't think that they were at fault for this accident. The first time we visited in Florida, we saw a gator in the water. It is no big secret that they reside in the waters there. Heck, there is Gatorland nearby, and I believe I have seen billboards for them on the way in from the airport. The fact that this type of event does not happen more often tells me that they are doing a good job control of the issue.

As for the dances being put up, I wonder how long befor people complain about them ruining the "natural" look that people so enjoy.

 

[STLstone]

I expect the major difference is that in 1986 there was no Social Media to spread the news far and wide. This event was spread throughout the world befor they even found the child's body. I doubt the event in '86 even made it across the U.S. Back then.

Also, people are much more paranoid and less likely to believe that they are responsible for their own actions now then 30 years ago. I see in the news all the time how it is the city/States/Companies/Schools fault that Some person did something unsafe causing something bad to happen and they blame and sue the person responsible for the area they were in. For example, near where I live, a family was at a lake last summer and their 3 yr old died, as well as two family members trying to find him, from swimming when there was a drop off in the water. While there were signs posting reminding people to use life jackets, and even life jackets provided for free, the famil sued the county because there were no signs posted about the drop off. While this was a horrible thing to happen, where was the families accountability for not having a 3 yr old in a life vest and letting home play several feet out in a muddy lake alone?

I am in no way blaming the parents of this young boy. They did not realize the danger of having their son in the water, and many children were safe over the years at that same place. It is a terrible thing that happened. Should Disney have had signs up? Probably. But I still don't think that they were at fault for this accident. The first time we visited in Florida, we saw a gator in the water. It is no big secret that they reside in the waters there. Heck, there is Gatorland nearby, and I believe I have seen billboards for them on the way in from the airport. The fact that this type of event does not happen more often tells me that they are doing a good job control of the issue.

As for the dances being put up, I wonder how long befor people complain about them ruining the "natural" look that people so enjoy.

Many children were uninjured, but as we've learned from the experts, they were NOT safe in or near that water. They were lucky.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I have never wished for a dislike button on the disboards as much as I do right now. I cannot believe you, who is up Disney's you-know-what about everything on these boards is giving them such a pass on this one. Seriously, every post I have ever seen from you is some kind of rant/snark against the Disney Co. and THIS is what you decide is OK?

I not only do I blame Disney for this tragedy, I am furious at them for my own family. I've never let my kids in the water for a variety of reasons, but we have been near it numerous times, including several times for the three weeks leading up to this event. If I would have know there are a bunch of gators in it, we would have been no where near it, not even on a walking trail going past it in the broad daylight. Sorry, I don't take risks (even small ones) lightly. But being from the midwest, I have no knowledge of gators and have never seen one in seven whole trips to WDW, so I truly had no idea they were there (in WDW, not FL as a whole, I expect them in the Everglades but not in developed areas). I am glad the signs are going up, but they should have been there from the beginning, despite what Disney thinks it would have done for its image of being safe.

Let's clarify a few things...

I am not absolving Disney from all blame/negligence. I have stated I think the reason there were no warnings was because I think Disney ultimately thought it was bad for business.

I'm sure there was some lackadaisical actions (a million times over) around that lagoon by employees...again that doesn't bode well for Disney.

But...the "kill the gators...how could the mighty Disney allow them?" Crowd is frankly wrong.

There ARE no developed areas in Florida...it is a swamp/estatuary area...and those are necessary for life on the planet...even in Kansas. There was almost nothing built in Florida prior to 1900...so who's squatting on who's land...exactly?

And I know (you missed this or ignored it)...just how dark that area is...and that a 2 year old should never be in it. There is a fundamental common sense here that is being glossed over.

But you allowed yourself to assume that no wildlife traversed the many lakes, streams and swamps in WDW. I'm sorry...you did. Obviously many people do...a shockingly high number. So Disneys policy needs to change and is...

But "we don't know about gators?"

Well that's fine at home...but you drove or got on a plane and went somewhere else...and not all places are equal.

I don't think you would let your 2 year old "splash around" in a dark lake under any circumstances...no matter where you were.

...there you go. A tragic accident...but the responses have not been perfectly fair.

 

[rjb123]

I have been visiting WDW one to two times a year for my entire life (Im 40). I am deeply afraid of alligators, and as a child and teen I would routinely ask almost every "water" CM about them and if they were in the water, were they frequently seen etc. I was always assured that they were removed, not an issue, etc. We were at the CR a week prior to this incident, and walked on the beach not far from where it occurred. I actually had a discussion with my DH about the signs saying "no swimming" being related to the amoeba thing, and how you used to be able to swim in the lake, about RC, and how you can boat etc on the lake. Again, I am TERRIFIED of gators, yet not once did gators come up as a "risk" in our discussion because I have been conditioned over the years that its not an issue at Disney! "they" take care of them and haul them all out. I didn't sleep all night long the night it happened. The first thing in my head and out of my mouth to my DH was "they only say no swimming. They don't even warn you about the gators".
Look, my point in all of this blather is that IMHO if "I" - someone who is TERRIFIED of gators- while visiting my parents on HHI I refuse to bike or walk many of the paths because they run near drainage canals because of my fear of them- can be conditioned that "they are not an issue", then ANYONE can be! 40 years of "oh don't worry, we don't ever see them- we have people who do nothing but pull them out of here!" and then ENCOURAGING us to be where the gators live - movie nights, beach chairs, fireworks viewings, boat, waterskiing etc rentals on that water- well, Disney DID have a hand in this. They just did. They didn't want "us" to be anxious, afraid or "burst our Disney bubble" so they placated us and didn't warn us. And this poor baby died. Yes, it was an accident. Yes, it was a wild animal. BUT - they HAD TO KNOW IT WAS COMING! They KNEW people fed them. They KNEW they were all over the place! Yet they denied it and tried to placate the tourists and in a sense cover up the severity. Money won't bring that poor angel back. Money won't take away this pain from his family. But Disney IMO is OBLIGATED to pay. They DESERVE to pay. Hell, if I was CEO I'd be writing them a personal check. I don't know how they could live with the guilt. I couldn't.
Finally, all of this "the family should have known better" - well, that is baloney. I am terrified of gators. Always have been, always will be now. And yet, this could have so easily been my child. SO easily. But for the grace of God go I. The poor baby is in my prayers. That poor family is in my prayers. I hope that somehow they are able to move forward together. Im not sure I could.

 

[Huff]

and if the family sues them, I think the family will win.

Case law would suggest the family would loose. Alligators are native to the area. In general if you are on private property the land owner is not responsible if native wildlife injures you. It is different if the owner brings the animal onto the property and injures someone.

Say you are walking across a walmart parking lot in Arizona and are bitten by a scorpion. Walmart is not liable. Same thing if a rattle snake bites you.

 

[HopperFan]

I think a significant factor in this terrible death was that the family is from Nebraska where lakes do not include lethal animals able to snatch a toddler at water's edge.

I grew up in Northwest Kansas just 15 miles below the Nebraska line. My family often went to lakes in both states. The most worrisome things along the edge of lakes in that part of the country would be sharp rocks, broken glass or junk metal that might cut your bare foot.

At those lakes, swimming outside designated areas means no lifeguard and a risk of drowning if you step off an unanticipated dropoff. That's about it. Fear of a child's playing and wading at water's edge while supervised by a parent is unheard of.

People can argue until the Nebraska cows come home that "EVERYbody knows there are alligators in Florida." However, knowing that there are doesn't necessarily mean that a non-resident family fully comprehends the danger.

I can easily understand this family's thinking it safe for their child to wade in water so near a Disney resort. "No swimming" to them, as it would to me, probably meant don't swim because there's no specific swimming area with a lifeguard. That wading could be life threatening likely never even occurred to them.

This is wrong. Nebraska family here. Actually been to their town many times. Lots of lakes (recreational and otherwise), rivers, ponds and creeks in the state. Even long canals similar to those in FL coming off rivers for irrigation. Would NEVER let a child play in or on banks from dusk on. There are plenty of animals about that live in the banks and nearby who come to the water in evenings. Would NEVER consider my child safe playing along water from as dusk approaches on.

Copperheads, Rattlesnakes, Beavers, Brown Recluse and Black Widows and more all prevalent along water. Yes we swim in the water during the day going in via well checked pathways and would never venture close to the banks. We certainly wouldn't enter water with thick vegetation in it. No matter where you live, if you plan to enter water other than a swimming pool, you are joining wildlife in their water.

Case law would suggest the family would loose. Alligators are native to the area. In general if you are on private property the land owner is not responsible if native wildlife injures you. It is different if the owner brings the animal onto the property and injures someone.

Say you are walking across a walmart parking lot in Arizona and are bitten by a scorpion. Walmart is not liable. Same thing if a rattle snake bites you.

This is correct. There are precedents involving alligators where property owners have been found not responsible for the exact reasons you state. Native wildlife is not owned by the property owners, even if the wildlife is living on the property. I said this earlier and I think this would be a reason for the family to settle rather than go through the stress of a court case. They could lose or Disney be found minimally responsible which could lead to much lower payout.

 

[Her Dotness]

This is wrong. Nebraska family here. Actually been to their town many times. Lots of lakes (recreational and otherwise), rivers, ponds and creeks in the state. Would NEVER let a child play in or on banks from dusk on. There are plenty of animals about that live in the banks and nearby who come to the water in evenings. Would NEVER consider my child safe playing along water from as dusk approaches on.

Okay. Corrected again.

Clearly, Eastern NE is somewhat different from the western part of the state. Haven't been in Omaha for many years so admittedly don't know lakes near there.

I often went in lakes in Western KS and NE at twilight or after dark and never encountered anything nasty. Maybe just lucky or possibly due to the much drier climate out there. We always carried flashlights since those lakes were illuminated by little more than moonlight. Perhaps a deterrent? Dunno.

Copperheads, Rattlesnakes, Beavers, Brown Recluse and Black Widows and more all prevalent along water.

Again, other than rattlesnakes, sounds more like vermin primarily found near eastern lakes than those I'm familiar with. There simply aren't beavers where I lived in Northwest and Southwest KS. No trees to speak of. Virtually none near lakes unless planted and carefully maintained at picnic areas or admin buildings. Same with vegetation in the water unless it's dead trees from when the lake filled.

But, you do make the point that there are more dangerous critters at some lakes in the Plains States than others.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I expect the major difference is that in 1986 there was no Social Media to spread the news far and wide. This event was spread throughout the world befor they even found the child's body. I doubt the event in '86 even made it across the U.S. Back then.

Also, people are much more paranoid and less likely to believe that they are responsible for their own actions now then 30 years ago. I see in the news all the time how it is the city/States/Companies/Schools fault that Some person did something unsafe causing something bad to happen and they blame and sue the person responsible for the area they were in. For example, near where I live, a family was at a lake last summer and their 3 yr old died, as well as two family members trying to find him, from swimming when there was a drop off in the water. While there were signs posting reminding people to use life jackets, and even life jackets provided for free, the famil sued the county because there were no signs posted about the drop off. While this was a horrible thing to happen, where was the families accountability for not having a 3 yr old in a life vest and letting home play several feet out in a muddy lake alone?

I am in no way blaming the parents of this young boy. They did not realize the danger of having their son in the water, and many children were safe over the years at that same place. It is a terrible thing that happened. Should Disney have had signs up? Probably. But I still don't think that they were at fault for this accident. The first time we visited in Florida, we saw a gator in the water. It is no big secret that they reside in the waters there. Heck, there is Gatorland nearby, and I believe I have seen billboards for them on the way in from the airport. The fact that this type of event does not happen more often tells me that they are doing a good job control of the issue.

As for the dances being put up, I wonder how long befor people complain about them ruining the "natural" look that people so enjoy.

I think this does an excellent job of highlighting the key components of this event.

Disney is not "innocent"...but cannot be "responsible" in the manner many are suggesting.

Mistakes, accidents, and nature DO happen...

I think (and have from the initial outcry) that the "label" slapped on where this occurred is the issue...people don't want to associate Disney world and anything that is unpleasant.

Over its history...it's had horrific car accidents, a domestic dispute that has turned into a hostage crisis, suicides in public areas, and more heart
Attacks resulting in deaths in front of families than you could imagine...
...life can never be "controlled" like a pet.

 

[delilah]

Personally, when I go on a trip, I try to learn a little about where I am going before I get there. This is partly because I might miss something interesting, and partly to alert myself to any hazards there might be. For example, I wouldn't try to climb Mount Everest without informing myself of necessary precautions to take, such as the need for oxygen, awareness of avalanches,etc. Likewise for Florida. There are nature trails in Florida with no warnings at all, just a trail. One, in particular, is a panther reserve. Would I hike there at night? Not on your life. I see alligators all the time in ditches along the Florida roads. Are there signs there? No. One while wading in Ft Myers Beach, I was stung by a stingray. Hurt like crazy, but, after appropriate first aid, I didn't even need any medical attention. Part of the difficulty is that we all need to take personal responsibility for our own safety and that of our loved ones.

 

[beer dave]

Since there have been so many years and visitors who have not been affected by dangerous wild life, one of two things must have occurred here--

1. An isolated random event , or
2. A change has occurred increasing the likely hood of the event.

For all who need someone to land the blame on for whatever personal reason, consider the change that has occurred in the last year or so-- the increased or actually probably the beginning of alligators in the lake being fed regularly by guests. That is what most likely caused this event.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Since there have been so many years and visitors who have not been affected by dangerous wild life, one of two things must have occurred here--

1. An isolated random event , or
2. A change has occurred increasing the likely hood of the event.

For all who need someone to land the blame on for whatever personal reason, consider the change that has occurred in the last year or so-- the increased or actually probably the beginning of alligators in the lake being fed regularly by guests. That is what most likely caused this event.

...but...how then can I blame Disney, Dave?