Testing refusal rates in your district

[Donnainnj]

I call BS on that 1st grade teacher article. I stopped reading when she said her students wouldn't receive services for 2 weeks. Right then I knew it was propaganda. It is illegal to violate a child's IEP. There is no way students could be blocked those services for 2 weeks. It is crap like that article that make me question if there isn't an alternative motive behind the opt out. I get some states have taken high stakes to a whole new level and that is why only a few states are seeing this movement, but if you want to be taken seriously in your cause IMO fear mongering doesn't work and that is what these extreme scenarios do and honestly make the people who write them (I am referring to the hypothetical 1st grade teacher not the poster) look unreliable.

My first grader normally has speech twice a week and physical therapy once. He did not have either during testing time even though his grade was not being tested. We are in NJ.

 

[Kbee]

We don't get them back until late September. Which is why my daughter had to be taken out of a class that she was already enrolled in and moved to an AIS class where she didn't need to be. It doesn't make much sense to get them back the following year, after kids already have their schedules done.

We have always gotten our results late summer, and gotten the class schedules after.
When my dd had to do AIS that class did not take her from any core class. It was scheduled for the days opposite her gym for the first semester. If she didn't have to remain in it for the second semester that slot turned into a study hall period, or tech or something else that she would only have every other day.
I'm not sure how it works with lower grades, but I imagine its treated like any "special" we have. The schedule for those are staggered so kids are not always missing math, or science etc.

 

[msjprincess]

It was every other day and she wasn't removed from a core class.

 

[nugov2]

My first grader normally has speech twice a week and physical therapy once. He did not have either during testing time even though his grade was not being tested. We are in NJ.

I would have to know the wording of your ds's IEP to know if they violated it. Does it list his services in minutes per week specifically or as needed. You have to be very careful how you let a school write it and make sure their are no loopholes. Phrasing like as needed is a loophole to allow the school to not provide your child with services when something comes up. If it is written in specific terms and they violated the terms you should do something about it. Otherwise they will continue to take advantage of both you and your child.

I never said it was physically impossible to violate an IEP just it is illegal if they are called on it. It is illegal to steal, but people do it and will continue to do it until they get caught and are punished. Violating the terms of an IEP is stealing from your child. Don't allow it to happen.

ETA

It is also possible they are not providing services to only students who have loosely written IEP'S and it that case they are not violating the terms at all. There is a difference. It is possible that teacher has a class full of kids or are in a district with unaware parents with very loosely written IEP'S, but there will still be some violations if they are pulling resource across the board for 2+ weeks. If I had to guess that teacher who posted her story on facebook is exaggerating the situation, but honestly I think a lot of these stories are being blown our of proportion, the people don't understand the true regulations or being taken out of context. Like the poster from Illinois who said the students had to turn down the test the day it is being administered in front of their peers. The school is lying if that is what they are being told. That is not how it works. Doesn't mean the school isn't trying to scare parents with that to get them to test, but if they researched it they wold see that is not how it works in Illinois. There is just so much misinformation out there.

 

[Donnainnj]

I think if they were only able to organize a handful of teachers for a strike then yes, they would be fired. A strike could only work if every NYS teacher agreed to it. They could never fill all those vacancies if they fired everyone.

In my state it is illegal to strike if you are a teacher. Our district went on strike years ago and teachers were arrested

 

[kimmar067]

I am hoping a teacher is not being evaluated on a single student. In my "ideal", the principal (or whoever) is looking at the general trend. I don't know anyone in any job who does everything 100% correctly every time. So, okay, one student gets a 154 out of 200. What if the other 29 students in the class score 180+? If I was doing that evaluation, I'd look at the big picture and figure the teacher is doing a pretty good job.

....thank you - my point exactly, but it isn't viewed that way - either they pass.....or they don't.

WHY do the teachers have no knowledge of what's on the test? Shouldn't they know ahead of time what's going to be covered? If they don't, IMO, that's not the fault of the test, that's the fault of whoever made the decision to keep the teacher out of the loop. No, they don't need the exact questions, but they should get an idea (and sample question) of what's going to be covered.

....ideally they should know what's basically on the test. First of all, there are 5 different versions of the [PARCC] test, and second, that is called 'teaching to the test', which is what most teachers, I imagine, are against....

Teachers then, are no longer teaching other things but, basically, how to pass a 'random' [for lack of a better word] test...

 

[Chernabog#1fan]

I agree that the kids are being used as pawns. Every time someone uses the phrase "high stakes testing" on this thread or in linked articles, I cringe. The one issue with AIS aside ( and I agree that is an issue) this testing is not high stakes for the kids, it it high stakes for the teachers. There should be no pressure on the kids for these tests. The only reason there is pressure is because the teachers put it there. The teachers who have done this should be ashamed of themselves. They are putting their own political agenda ahead of the well-being of the children they are teaching. There are other ways to accomplish your goals without using your students as pawns.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but how is it not high stakes for the children when they can be retained for one single test score? A test that the parents can not even review after the fact to make sure that questions were correctly marked wrong, because that does happen. I have no problem with a child taking a standardized test, my problem is how they are using that test to punish the child. When I took standardized tests in school, their was no pressure at all because I knew that I would not fail the grade if I did not do well that day.

My son has a very high IQ and even tested gifted, but also has other challenges he deals with. The school decided that since he got a 4 on his reading and math the year before that he did not need additional time for the tests any longer even though they had all of his medical history to determine he should have a 504 plan. He took the reading and did not finish the test, so scored a 2. I did not allow him to take the test in 5th grade, but when 6th grade came along, they wanted to put him in remedial reading based on the 2 from 4th grade. They told me it would help him to score better. I asked if they taught him how to sit still and focus during this remedial class and they asked me what I was talking about. I told them that he knows perfectly well how to read, so unless they are teaching him how to sit still and focus, he was not going to score better.

It is also a proven fact that the testing company (Pearson) has designed the test to fail 50% of the population. This is not a made up situation. The scorers are required to fail a certain number of children or they lose their job. This is why people need to wake up and see what is happening with these tests. This is why we have to demand change.

 

[sam_gordon]

....thank you - my point exactly, but it isn't viewed that way - either they pass.....or they don't.

And again, if 29/30 kids "pass" and only one child fails, that shouldn't reflect badly on the teacher. If 10 kids fail, then yes, I'd be much more suspicious.

....ideally they should know what's basically on the test. First of all, there are 5 different versions of the [PARCC] test, and second, that is called 'teaching to the test', which is what most teachers, I imagine, are against....

Teachers then, are no longer teaching other things but, basically, how to pass a 'random' [for lack of a better word] test...

Why does the number of versions make a difference? I'm assuming there are different versions of the SAT/ACT. That's no different than a teacher have one version of a test for the first period class and a different version for the 6th period class. Again, the teachers should know the TYPE of question that's going to be on the test, with maybe a sample or two so they can make sure they're teaching the correct skills. They SHOULDN'T know the exact questions. I assume that's not what you're implying.

 

[sam_gordon]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but how is it not high stakes for the children when they can be retained for one single test score? A test that the parents can not even review after the fact to make sure that questions were correctly marked wrong, because that does happen. I have no problem with a child taking a standardized test, my problem is how they are using that test to punish the child. When I took standardized tests in school, their was no pressure at all because I knew that I would not fail the grade if I did not do well that day.

As others have pointed out, some schools don't get the results until the fall. So how are the kids being left back?

It is also a proven fact that the testing company (Pearson) has designed the test to fail 50% of the population. This is not a made up situation. The scorers are required to fail a certain number of children or they lose their job. This is why people need to wake up and see what is happening with these tests. This is why we have to demand change.

Source for this? After all, if it's a "proven fact", there's got to be information somewhere. And if the test is DESIGNED to fail 50% of the population, why are the scorers required to fail individual kids?

 

[msjprincess]

And again, if 29/30 kids "pass" and only one child fails, that shouldn't reflect badly on the teacher. If 10 kids fail, then yes, I'd be much more suspicious.


Why does the number of versions make a difference? I'm assuming there are different versions of the SAT/ACT. That's no different than a teacher have one version of a test for the first period class and a different version for the 6th period class. Again, the teachers should know the TYPE of question that's going to be on the test, with maybe a sample or two so they can make sure they're teaching the correct skills. They SHOULDN'T know the exact questions. I assume that's not what you're implying.

Since they changed the tests, only 30-35% pass. So most teachers will have most of their class fail.

Some numbers from last year's 5th grade ELA test as an example

Reading- Possible number of points 42, Average Points in NYS 25
Writing From Sources- Possible Number of Points 24, Average Points in NYS 13

 

[Donnainnj]

I would have to know the wording of your ds's IEP to know if they violated it. Does it list his services in minutes per week specifically or as needed. You have to be very careful how you let a school write it and make sure their are no loopholes. Phrasing like as needed is a loophole to allow the school to not provide your child with services when something comes up. If it is written in specific terms and they violated the terms you should do something about it. Otherwise they will continue to take advantage of both you and your child.

I never said it was physically impossible to violate an IEP just it is illegal if they are called on it. It is illegal to steal, but people do it and will continue to do it until they get caught and are punished. Violating the terms of an IEP is stealing from your child. Don't allow it to happen.

ETA

It is also possible they are not providing services to only students who have loosely written IEP'S and it that case they are not violating the terms at all. There is a difference. It is possible that teacher has a class full of kids or are in a district with unaware parents with very loosely written IEP'S, but there will still be some violations if they are pulling resource across the board for 2+ weeks. If I had to guess that teacher who posted her story on facebook is exaggerating the situation, but honestly I think a lot of these stories are being blown our of proportion, the people don't understand the true regulations or being taken out of context. Like the poster from Illinois who said the students had to turn down the test the day it is being administered in front of their peers. The school is lying if that is what they are being told. That is not how it works. Doesn't mean the school isn't trying to scare parents with that to get them to test, but if they researched it they wold see that is not how it works in Illinois. There is just so much misinformation out there.

The IEP is very specific. My son is doing well and I would not be surprised if he no longer needs these services in 2nd grade. I am a pretty practical person and would prefer to see the financial resources going to educate, not defend legal battles. If things got bad enough maybe that opinion would change.

 

[msjprincess]

double post

 

[Chernabog#1fan]

As others have pointed out, some schools don't get the results until the fall. So how are the kids being left back?

Source for this? After all, if it's a "proven fact", there's got to be information somewhere. And if the test is DESIGNED to fail 50% of the population, why are the scorers required to fail individual kids?

I will get the information for you, but the answer to the second question is that they have to have scores for the writing portion. That can not be computer scored. When they hire the scorer, they have a certain fail rate that has be incorporated.

 

[brockash]

I call BS on that 1st grade teacher article. I stopped reading when she said her students wouldn't receive services for 2 weeks. Right then I knew it was propaganda. It is illegal to violate a child's IEP. There is no way students could be blocked those services for 2 weeks. It is crap like that article that make me question if there isn't an alternative motive behind the opt out. I get some states have taken high stakes to a whole new level and that is why only a few states are seeing this movement, but if you want to be taken seriously in your cause IMO fear mongering doesn't work and that is what these extreme scenarios do and honestly make the people who write them (I am referring to the hypothetical 1st grade teacher not the poster) look unreliable.

You can "call BS" on whatever you'd like - doesn't mean you're right. Have you spent much time in a school? While an IEP is a legal document, it does not mean that schools abide by them all of the time. I've been an intern at 2 different schools in NY this year, and there have been multiple times that an IEP wasn't followed correctly. My own ds used to have an IEP and there were many times that his wasn't followed correctly (just counting the times that I found out about it, and we're military and move often, so this was in multiple schools, throughout multiple states.)

Yes, schools try to always follow them, but it doesn't always happen. I 100% believe and know for a fact in the school I'm interning at that students are not receiving those services during this testing.

 

[sam_gordon]

Since they changed the tests, only 30-35% pass. So most teachers will have most of their class fail.

Some numbers from last year's 5th grade ELA test as an example

Reading- Possible number of points 42, Average Points in NYS 25
Writing From Sources- Possible Number of Points 24, Average Points in NYS 13

That was the first (or second?) year of the tests in NYS, right? So how many teachers were fired because of those results (or demoted, or docked in pay, or otherwise penalized)?

ETA: Note, I said "more suspicious". I personally would take into account this testing is in it's infancy.

 

[msjprincess]

That was the first (or second?) year of the tests in NYS, right? So how many teachers were fired because of those results (or demoted, or docked in pay, or otherwise penalized)?

ETA: Note, I said "more suspicious". I personally would take into account this testing is in it's infancy.

It was the second year. The tests weren't part of teacher evaluations last year. That wasn't announced until January of this year.

 

[undertheradar]

I will get the information for you, but the answer to the second question is that they have to have scores for the writing portion. That can not be computer scored. When they hire the scorer, they have a certain fail rate that has be incorporated.

You have a source at Pearson for this? Please provide accurate proof.

 

[sam_gordon]

It was the second year. The tests weren't part of teacher evaluations last year. That wasn't announced until January of this year.

OK. I'm not sure I understand your point. What I'm trying to say is if *I* was doing the evaluation, I'm not going to look at what one student does on a test. I'm going to look at the bigger picture. If there are four fifth grade teachers at a school and three of them have 29/30 "pass" and the fourth has 10 of them "fail", I am going to look harder at the fourth... do they have a lot of IEP or Special needs students? Do they have any other extenuating circumstances? If all four only have 10/30 pass, then they're all on the same level.

 

[msjprincess]

OK. I'm not sure I understand your point. What I'm trying to say is if *I* was doing the evaluation, I'm not going to look at what one student does on a test. I'm going to look at the bigger picture. If there are four fifth grade teachers at a school and three of them have 29/30 "pass" and the fourth has 10 of them "fail", I am going to look harder at the fourth... do they have a lot of IEP or Special needs students? Do they have any other extenuating circumstances? If all four only have 10/30 pass, then they're all on the same level.

You asked how many teachers were penalized or fired because of tests scores last year. None, because that wasn't part of their evaluation before this year.

 

[nugov2]

You can "call BS" on whatever you'd like - doesn't mean you're right. Have you spent much time in a school? While an IEP is a legal document, it does not mean that schools abide by them all of the time. I've been an intern at 2 different schools in NY this year, and there have been multiple times that an IEP wasn't followed correctly. My own ds used to have an IEP and there were many times that his wasn't followed correctly (just counting the times that I found out about it, and we're military and move often, so this was in multiple schools, throughout multiple states.)

Yes, schools try to always follow them, but it doesn't always happen. I 100% believe and know for a fact in the school I'm interning at that students are not receiving those services during this testing.

Again read what I said. If a parent wants to fight a school they have a legal leg to stand on IF the IEP is written that way. My point was that the teachers are wrong for allowing it to happen and not talking a stand for what is right for their students. I didn't say it was impossible to do only that it is possibly illegal and IMO morally wrong for the teachers to do and they do need to have accountability for their actions.

And I was a teacher who sat in more IEP meetings than I can count. I am well aware of the process And What loopholes schools use to take advantage of less informed parents. Just because they can get away with it doesn't make it right. I don't see how a school can pull services for all their students and nobody makes a stink about it but if their evaluation is tied to the test it's national news seems the priorities are out of whack. Does anyone not see why people are viewing some of the teachers involved in this mess as wrong and using the students?