Terror in the Skies, Again?

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
Profiling, If it prevents another attack I am all for it. Can that be considered Prejudice, yes in certain definitions. However you seem to infer that this based upon a deep hatred rather than caution.

On a return flight from Florida. Two middle eastern men were using buddy passes to board the flight. One was not cleared on the flight and was supposed to take another flight. Another Middle Eastern man was flying standby. Did this make me uncomfortable flying, Yes. Did anything happen no. Would I have felt better if Security Walked over to these men and Question them. Yes. I to am not a bigot, but welcome the effort to enhance me and mine's security

I don't use any other definition of prejudice than the standard one. Racial profiling is based on preconceived judgments or opinions about people based solely on their race/nationality. It is assuming without any facts to substantiate it that someone will commit a crime.

Do you support racial profiling by your local, county, or state police? Most people don't because they know it is simply wrong to make assumptions about what someone might do based simply on their race. In our area, it's referred to as "driving while black." Same thing applies to racial profiling at airports. If it's wrong for police to do it, it's wrong to do it at airports.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
So this makes it OK to condone prejudice against a group of people simply because of their race/origin/nationality. And I'm the one who needs to grow up???

Show me one specific place where I said I condone predjudice? To me, predjudice is hating a group of people. I don't hate middle easterners and I don't think they are ALL terrorists. But we have a pretty darn good idea what the 911 guys looked like and who the guys who want us all dead look like and I see no problems whatsoever in looking at folks who are from the same area of the world a little more closely.

I don't call it predjudice. Apparently you do. I call it common sense.

 

[Patch'sD]

So, Honestly if you see 12 Middle Eastern Men board an Aircraft that you are flying on, you are not going to give it one thought. Just get on and not think about it.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
So, Honestly if you see 12 Middle Eastern Men board an Aircraft that you are flying on, you are not going to give it one thought. Just get on and not think about it.

Not me. I'm going to watch them very carefully and if they start acting nervous or strange I will most likely get off that flight. I don't care. Nothing comes before the safety of me and my family.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
I see no problems whatsoever in looking at folks who are from the same area of the world a little more closely.

Esmerelda, the problem is that you can't identify "people from that part of the world". My dad was fairly dark complected, and even more so in the summer when he would be working outside around the house. He also had black hair and could easily pass for middle-eastern until he opened his mouth and had no trace of an accent. Should he have undergone extra security at airports just to assuage the fears of the hysterical ? He was a vietnam vet...gave a higher percentage of his money to charity than anyone I've ever known...and was basically the kindest person you'd ever want to meet (until he got mad, at least )...Should he have had to suffer extra delays because, in your opinion, he "looked middle eastern" ?

Or should we limit it to people with accents...like the woman I worked with in DC who had lived here her entire life but still had a trace of her Iranian parent's dialect ?

Profiling simply does not work.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Esmerelda, the problem is that you can't identify "people from that part of the world". My dad was fairly dark complected, and even more so in the summer when he would be working outside around the house. He also had black hair and could easily pass for middle-eastern until he opened his mouth and had no trace of an accent. Should he have undergone extra security at airports just to assuage the fears of the hysterical ? He was a vietnam vet...gave a higher percentage of his money to charity than anyone I've ever known...and was basically the kindest person you'd ever want to meet (until he got mad, at least )...Should he have had to suffer extra delays because, in your opinion, he "looked middle eastern" ?

Or should we limit it to people with accents...like the woman I worked with in DC who had lived here her entire life but still had a trace of her Iranian parent's dialect ?

Profiling simply does not work.

I think EVERYONE should be screened. And if some people who look middle eastern but are not get inconvienced they should just deal with it and realize that screening and profiling is there to protect EVERYONE.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
I think EVERYONE should be screened. And if some people who look middle eastern but are not get inconvienced they should just deal with it and realize that screening and profiling is there to protect EVERYONE.

Ah, but that isn't profiling So long as everyone is treated equally - ie: faces the same security checks and inconveniences - then it's not profiling, just screening. Profiling only occurs when you single out one racial group for special attention above and beyond what is normal for everyone else.

BTW...I agree with you that security should be tighter across the board.

 

[m&m's mom]

Count another in support of profiling.
We flew to WDW a few weeks after 9/11. We had 6 tickets- 2 for my DH, one for me, 2 for our parent and 2 for our DD's.
At the last minute my DH, my MiL, and 1 of our DD's decided to drive so that if anything happened to one group of us there would be another for the remaining.
When we got to the airport we were the ONLY of our race on the flight. EVERY other person was visibly of another race. Did not appear to be exactly a threat but still made nervous. I knew I was not getting my MD or my DD on that flight w/out asking why they were all together. Turns out they were from a church here going to Orlando to support their previous minister at his new church.
Proves it is a new world order out there thanks to some very sick individuals.

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by m&m's mom
Count another in support of profiling.
We flew to WDW a few weeks after 9/11. We had 6 tickets- 2 for my DH, one for me, 2 for our parent and 2 for our DD's.
At the last minute my DH, my MiL, and 1 of our DD's decided to drive so that if anything happened to one group of us there would be another for the remaining.

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but this is one of the oddest things I ever heard. How did you decide who was worth risking on the flight?

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
I don't mean to be rude or anything, but this is one of the oddest things I ever heard. How did you decide who was worth risking on the flight?

I'm not the OP you are asking this of but I just wanted to give my perspective...many people fly separately and divide the parents so that if one parent dies, there is another parent remaining alive. The royal family of England do it all the time.

I think that is more what she meant. I don't think she meant the people on the plane were expendable and the ones driving we more worth saving.

Just a few weeks after 9/11 many people didn't feel safe doing any mode of transportation. Something could have happened to the half of the family driving too.

Anyway, that's how I took the post. FWIW.

 

[faithinkarma]

Is it just me or isn't there a really obvious reason not to rely on profiling? If we do, surely the terrorists will recruit and use people who do not fit the profile? So while we waste time giving extra attention to someone who looks the part, the real terrorist might well escape notice.

 

[Nancy]

wasn't there recently reports on that very subject? I thought I heard that the terrorists groups were trying to recruit "average looking" people who would fit in with the crowd. To me that means they are trying to recruit people (men and women) that look more American then Middle eastern. That is why I think security should be stepped up for everyone.

Crossing the border into Canada is a joke, and coming back into the States isn't any better....you don't get asked for ID, you get 1 or 2 questions..."Where were you born and Where are you going?" I know they put your plate number into the computer....but what if someone stole my van? I'd rather be subjected to a more detailed security point then worry about someone crossing into the country and causing us harm. Even over the 4th of July when security should have been heightened we were across the border in less then 2 minutes.....both ways.

 

[binny]

yeah but try crossing the border with a green card

dh is Canadian and we just returned from a funeral there, we got the third degree coming back in even though DH has been a legal resident for 9 years. If they gave the terrorists half of what they give us well Id feel alot safer.
Dont get me wrong, Im glad we get hassled in this instance. Im just amazed at how hard it can be sometimes.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I don't believe we should discount any threat. However, I do not support or condone racial profiling. We condemn that practice elsewhere in America, so why is it OK to use at airports? Is your or my safety in our homes, offices, streets any less important than when we are flying in a pressurized steel & aluminum tube at 33,000 feet?

I don't claim to have all the answers, but the solution to airline security is not in a quick & dirty fix of racial profiling. The country needs to take airline security seriously and invest in what is needed to guarantee some level of safety. Those who choose to fly also need to realize they are accepting some degree to risk by travelling that way. Nothing is 100% safe all the time. I don't believe for a second that racial profiling is going to make flying any safer tomorrow than it is today.

IMO I see a big disconnect here. If you are not going to discount the threat of Jihad how do you address it?? I think the way to do it is to profile, because of the Jihad. For those that don't think it's PC, that's fine. What would be your answer to the threat? It was an identified group that made the threat. Where is the foul?

As an aside, the 9-11 panel has come out with the holes in information gathering/sharing. I haven't seen the write up of the report yet. I would imagine to have actually done something to prevent the attack, there would have been some level of profiling. If that had happened (the profiling and follow up) then we may not have had a 9-11 at all.

I acknowledge you stated you don't have all the answers. Nor do I. But I do take the Jihad declaration seriously.

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by binny
yeah but try crossing the border with a green card

dh is Canadian and we just returned from a funeral there, we got the third degree coming back in even though DH has been a legal resident for 9 years. If they gave the terrorists half of what they give us well Id feel alot safer.
Dont get me wrong, Im glad we get hassled in this instance. Im just amazed at how hard it can be sometimes.

Yep...I am Canadian, my husband is American. Whenever we cross the border together, it is a major hassle, both coming and going. I dread it each time.

 

[Nancy]

I cross the Rainbow Bridge in the Falls and the Peace Bridge from Buffalo into Ft Erie...never have a problem or more then a cursory chit chat with the inspectors on either side. I don't cross the border everyday...usually once or twice a month to go to the casinos. I wish I would see an increase in security here...I would feel much better.

 

[Junebugwv]

This subject has been reported on MSNBC and the Jacobsen's were interviewed on Scarborough Country. Interesting that all 14 Syrian men were interviewed at LAX and released. No one noticed until later that the visas were all expired (copies were made of their visas). Sounds like the Jacobsen's were attentive to detail, too bad the paid federal agents at LAX were not so attentive.
As for this article being fiction...consider the source of THAT statement.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
So, Honestly if you see 12 Middle Eastern Men board an Aircraft that you are flying on, you are not going to give it one thought. Just get on and not think about it.

Yup ... if they have a valid ticket, it is OK for them to travel just as it is for me.

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
I'm not the OP you are asking this of but I just wanted to give my perspective...many people fly separately and divide the parents so that if one parent dies, there is another parent remaining alive. The royal family of England do it all the time.

I think that is more what she meant. I don't think she meant the people on the plane were expendable and the ones driving we more worth saving.

Just a few weeks after 9/11 many people didn't feel safe doing any mode of transportation. Something could have happened to the half of the family driving too.

Anyway, that's how I took the post. FWIW.

I would have understood it if she had said her DH and she had split up, but I was more than surprised at the fact that they put one DD on the flight and one in the car. I can't imagine trying to make that decision.

 

[Patty3]

The federal agents missed the fact that their Visa's had expired?????That should have been one of the first things that they looked at. I worked for 18 years at our county PD and we ran criminal record checks for individuals on themselves. The first thing we always checked was to make sure that they had a valid drivers license. I would have been frightened on this flight. Yes, if I thought that something looked funny to me, I would get off the plane. Our local channel ran this story last night. It is a sad time we live in. A friend is a flight attendant. I relayed this story to her when I first read it. She said that if this happened on her flight, the crew would land the plane at the nearest airport.