Terror in the Skies, Again?

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by Joeblack
What is foreseeable? Do you think 9-11 was really foreseeable?

Certainly 9/11 was not predictable. But we can expect muslim extremism to continue to be a threat in the foreseeable future, meaning it is not a threat that is likely to recede.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by Lanshark
Would you disagree that Middle Eastern Men are currently the biggest threat?

I do disagree with that. It is not necessarily Middle Eastern. I will agree tha Muslim men are the biggest threat. It is a religious thing, not a racial thing. That is why I asked if you could identify the terrorist from the options I posted. It can be tricky to pinpoint a person of Middle Eastern origin. It is impossible to pinpoint a person based on religious beliefs. THat is why I think racial profiling is worthless.

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by mickeymousefan
Imagine for one minute what it was like to have to jump from 85 or 95 stories high because the building beneath you is burning. Think about the terror that gripped the people on the planes as they crashed to their deaths. Think of the children whose Mommys and Daddys never came home that day. Tell me why hurting someones feelings or making them uncomfortable by asking them a few more questions or searching them is so horrible!!!

With certain freedoms come the loss of certain securities. As I remember someone else saying in another thread recently: just keep tossing your freedoms away. I'm certain there's someone who would love to have them. I get really irritated when people start throwing around emotional images in an effort to paint those who love their freedoms as uncaring, heartless people.

Wow...as this is the closest I've ever come to being truly angry about an internet board, I'm walking away.

 

[dianeschlicht]

ARGH! I just started reading the story, and all of a sudden it disappeared and a "cannot be displayed" page came up. I think the article expired. Can someone tell me about the "rest of the story"?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by NMAmy
It sure is a large middle eastern population area. I posted about that a long ways back, but it got lost in the hubub.

Yes, I thought that I had read that before. I also remember reading that shortly after 9/11 that segment of the population was fearful about discrimination and violence against them, etc.

It may be helpful to know more background info with some of these posts.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
Certainly 9/11 was not predictable. But we can expect muslim extremism to continue to be a threat in the foreseeable future, meaning it is not a threat that is likely to recede.

How about unforeseeable acts of aggression against the U.S. using airplanes? SHouldn't they be prevented too? Still nobody knows who commited the ANthrax attacks after 911 but evidence suggests it was Far-Right paramilitary organizations from within the U.S. itself. Can you predict or foresee what theose people or pro-Cuban, nostalgic ex Russian agents, Japanese Red army operatives could be up to? Isn't it worthwhile to try to keep us safe from any possible eventuality rather than focusing on only a group of people and leaving the door semi-open and in the process making it easier for terrorists to take advantage of this?

 

[dianeschlicht]

Originally posted by dianeschlicht
ARGH! I just started reading the story, and all of a sudden it disappeared and a "cannot be displayed" page came up. I think the article expired. Can someone tell me about the "rest of the story"?

Excuse me for barging in, but I would like to know the story. I only got the first page read before it appeared to expire.

 

[NMAmy]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Yes, I thought that I had read that before. I also remember reading that shortly after 9/11 that segment of the population was fearful about discrimination and violence against them, etc.

It may be helpful to know more background info with some of these posts.

I've flown out of Detroit many times. I wouldn't really be suspicious of seeing a large group of Middle Eastern men there.

 

[mickeymousefan]

With certain freedoms come the loss of certain securities. As I remember someone else saying in another thread recently: just keep tossing your freedoms away. I'm certain there's someone who would love to have them. I get really irritated when people start throwing around emotional images in an effort to paint those who love their freedoms as uncaring, heartless people.

Maleficent13..... thats my opinion. Where in my post did I call anyone uncaring or heartless?? At the time of 9/11, I was 2 months pregnant with my youngest DD. You know what... I was scared. I was scared she would never even get to be born!!!! I was scared just like everyone else was scared.
My statement was I dont think searching someone or asking them questions is a horrible thing. I myself, have NOTHING to hide. You can search me, you can question me and then I will go on my way happy to know someone is looking out for me and my safety. People with something to hide will be the ones who mind.

I dont know why people think freedom is all or nothing. It's not.

 

[damo]

Originally posted by dianeschlicht
Excuse me for barging in, but I would like to know the story. I only got the first page read before it appeared to expire.

Works fine for me. I just click the "more" and the next page comes up. Keep trying.

 

[Trish Bessette]

I'm on the same page as you Mickeymousefan

 

[Kim&Chris]

Originally posted by mickeymousefan
Maleficent13..... thats my opinion. Where in my post did I call anyone uncaring or heartless?? At the time of 9/11, I was 2 months pregnant with my youngest DD. You know what... I was scared. I was scared she would never even get to be born!!!! I was scared just like everyone else was scared.
My statement was I dont think searching someone or asking them questions is a horrible thing. I myself, have NOTHING to hide. You can search me, you can question me and then I will go on my way happy to know someone is looking out for me and my safety. People with something to hide will be the ones who mind.

I dont know why people think freedom is all or nothing. It's not.

Exactly.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Originally posted by damo
Works fine for me. I just click the "more" and the next page comes up. Keep trying.

HMMM. I still can't get it even if I to "detect settings".

 

[wvrevy]

Wonder what people would think about a law that suspended civil liberties, in the event of an emergency, so that the government could do what needed to be done without worrying over-much about observing every little nuance of the Bill of Rights ?














If you'd be in favor of that, then congratulations....you just approved the Enabling Act of 1933, allowing the rise of one Adolph Hitler.

"Freedom isn't all or nothing" ? Yes, I'm afraid it most certainly is.

 

[Nebsky]

Im on the fence here. Looking in the past, the greatest threat/action in the past 25 years has come from the muslim extremist. Sometimes I can see the point in profiling, other times it is not. Personally I think the DOT is way out of line that an airline can only secondary screen 2 people of a certain origin.
Ok, a serious question here...

So we are on the look out for terrorist. They come from the middle east in certain countries. We highlight those countries and the people who are citizens from that country to extra screening. I see how we are profiling them, but how are we causing them any harm. They are not citizens of the US. They have basic rights in this country, but they are not the same rights as a US citizen.

Now, you might run into problems with people that are here on visa's for a period of time from that country. They still have thier passport/docs/etc. If thats what it takes to travel here for them, so be it, but I fail to see how we are trampeling on thier rights since they are not a US citizen. Now, what happens if/when they decide to get US Citizenship. How does that affect them.

Edited to add, if I am over at another country and they decide to do extra screening on US citizens, fine by me. Will it inconvienence me, probably to some degree. Will I do if if Im required to, sure.

Its a double edge sword. You are Damned if you do, Damed if you dont.

 

[AirForceRocks]

One of the most blood thirsty Al-Qaeda allies is Abu Nidal from the Philippines.

Abu Nidal (the man) was not from the Philippines, he was Palestinian. Abu Nidal (the organization) was a splinter group of the PLO.

Still nobody knows who commited the ANthrax attacks after 911 but evidence suggests it was Far-Right paramilitary organizations from within the U.S. itself.

Really? I'd love to see that evidence. Link please?

 

[mickeymousefan]

They are not citizens of the US. They have basic rights in this country, but they are not the same rights as a US citizen

Good point Nebsky.

If foreigners do not like our laws or the way we handle things they can choose not to visit our country.

Also flying is not a right.... if you object to screening.... drive.

also I dont know how we took the leap from airport screening to Hitler!!!!!

 

[cynsaun]

Originally posted by Nebsky
Im on the fence here. Looking in the past, the greatest threat/action in the past 25 years has come from the muslim extremist. Sometimes I can see the point in profiling, other times it is not. Personally I think the DOT is way out of line that an airline can only secondary screen 2 people of a certain origin.
Ok, a serious question here...

So we are on the look out for terrorist. They come from the middle east in certain countries. We highlight those countries and the people who are citizens from that country to extra screening. I see how we are profiling them, but how are we causing them any harm. They are not citizens of the US. They have basic rights in this country, but they are not the same rights as a US citizen.

Now, you might run into problems with people that are here on visa's for a period of time from that country. They still have thier passport/docs/etc. If thats what it takes to travel here for them, so be it, but I fail to see how we are trampeling on thier rights since they are not a US citizen. Now, what happens if/when they decide to get US Citizenship. How does that affect them.

Its a double edge sword. You are Damned if you do, Damed if you dont.

Very good point, Nebsky! I have actually been thinking about the same thing all afternoon. All muslims aren't terrorists, and all muslims aren't from the middle east.

Perhaps what should be done is those that hold a passport from another country, as well as those that are here on Visas are subject to further screening. Although it is more inconvenient for visitors to our country, that seems a much better choice.

 

[Geoff_M]

I’ve got really mixed feelings about the story. I think it’s true. I studied Folklore in college and continued to do so in the area of urban legends after I graduated. The article has none of the markings of an urban legend. The key to uncovering an UL is a lack of specific details in the story that would make it easily debunkable. This story gives dates, flight numbers, names, departments were said people work, etc. There none of the usual vagaries: “a police officer told me”, “a newspaper article from the UK”, etc. If it were a work of fiction it would fall apart quickly with the simplest of checking.

As for the author’s reaction, I think it’s understandable but also somewhat grounded in a lack of understanding of “Arab” culture. I have a good co-worker friend who’s Syrian by birth and was raised in Saudi Arabia. It’s not unusual at all to see groups of Arabs traveling together. Socialization is an important part of their culture. When most Americans decide to go somewhere for the weekend or an extended trip, we just hop in our cars as a family and take off... AJ’s family rarely does that. They much rather join up with a couple of other families and go as a group. I remember last year AJ called off a weekend at a fun place he’d never been to before because the other families that had planned to go with had to cancel. AJ said “We (he and his wife) didn’t want to go by ourselves.” That’s a “foreign” concept to most of us.

Yes, Detroit has the largest concentration of Arabs in the US. Go shopping in a mall in Dearborn and you’ll understand. AJ and I were talking about Dearborn at lunch two days ago… He can’t stand the place because “There’s too many Arabs!!!” I also heard that same reasoning from another acquaintance who’s Iraqi. So if you’re flying out of DTW, expect more than a few middle-easterners on the plane.

AJ has also been deemed a “suspicious person” at an airport. Here’s what happened to him at our airport a year ago :

Last year he, along with several of us flew to NYC for a meeting. He didn't want to drive to our airport, so AJ had a couple of his Arabic friends drive him to the airport. After AJ checked in, he had about an hour to kill before our flight.

Our airport has a small cafe before the TSA station that has a window that looks into the gate area. AJ's friends decided to stay and keep him company until it was time for our flight (there’s that “socialization” thing again). So they sat by the window and talked for a long time in Arabic. They were planning something or other (knowing him is was probably a weekend in Chicago) and AJ pulled out a notepad and started writing down some ideas they had.

After a while, a police officer and a police dog approached their table. The officer said, "I'm sorry, but someone reported that there was a group of men in the cafe acting suspiciously, so I have to follow up and ask for some ID and ask you what you're doing." To make matter worse, AJ is pretty afraid of dogs (they are considered “unclean” animals by mid-eastern Muslims) ... and he didn't want to arise further suspicions by acting nervous due to the large police dog standing next to him. They complied and AJ showed the cop his notepad (in Arabic), and the officer apologized for having to bother them... and that was the end of that.

Without a doubt somebody, I envision a middle aged white couple, saw AJ and his buddies and feared the worst. Which was totally unfair. The rest of us were waiting in the gate area and didn’t see any of it. AJ told us about the incident after we got to NYC. Ironically, we had different reactions that he did. We were upset and embarrassed at what happened to him, but he didn’t mind it a bit. AJ said that he’d has been upset if the cop HADN’T investigated the “tip”. AJ basically said “Look, I want to arrive in one piece too!” Go figure.

To all the people upset with the behavior of the white passengers on the plane, I would like to ask “At what point is it appropriate to report suspicious behavior?” Do you need to see a glimpse of a weapon or part of an IED before you excuse yourself to go speak to a flight attendant? Do you have to remove all doubt before you act?

I do think you should at least ask yourself “If I saw I white person doing this, would I react in a similar manner?” I personally don’t think any person should be given a “free pass” in such manner when their actions come under scrutiny. If it doesn’t look right, report it. Based on what I read in the article, I think you could make a case to at least say something to an attendant. It’s not a slam dunk, and I may not have said anything since a have a little more understanding of the culture of the people under the microscope. But I don’t think I’d criticize some that did decide to speak up.

 

[Geoff_M]

Wonder what people would think about a law that suspended civil liberties, in the event of an emergency, so that the government could do what needed to be done without worrying over-much about observing every little nuance of the Bill of Rights?

You mean like when Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus during the Civil War?