teachers possibly striking

[bicker]

i suspect that if the other agency had taken a similar one day action that could have resulted in preventing the death of the child that occured you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would have argued those means did not justify the end.

"Could have resulted..."? Sorry, no. "Would definitely have prevented..." maybe. But not for something that the transgressors self-declare as "could have resulted..." It's rationalization, pure and simple. Nothing special about it; and nothing worthy of being respected.

 

[bicker]

Once again....what other profession tries to punish its employees in the name of children?

Nursing.

And the rhetoric can be turned around: What other workers punish children to get financial advantages for themselves?

What other profession requires a master's degree and yet its members are looked down upon or treated with so little respect.

Again, nursing.

And for both nurses and teachers, both are chosen occupations. Folks in this thread are raising very good reasons for folks considering going into those occupations to re-think doing so. These are society-imposed disadvantages of becoming a teacher/nurse.

 

[HOGFAN]

gee, as an xray tech I can say that I always thought nurses got way 'more' respect that they should have. and I only use that in the context that it seems that hospital put nurses in charge of departments they have no idea how to run(xray,physical therapy, respiratory) even promoting them to administrators while other (and perhaps more deserving) department heads flounder.
Nurses certainly make way more than I do. I dont begrudge them that, I certainly dont have the stomach for alot of what they do. But I dont buy the idea that they dont get respect, I think they are very respected. just my opinion.

Flame suit on: I dont believe anyone who receives taxpayer money(teachers, police, fire) should be able to unionize and certainly not able to strike.

 

[bicker]

I don't buy the idea that teachers don't get respect either. They each get a certain amount of respect, and many claim (in each case) less than they should get, while other claim (in each case) as much as they deserve. The point is that there is no difference between barkley's rhetoric about respect with regard to teachers and mine with regard to nurses. None.

 

[Pigeon]

I have no problem with teachers (or anyone else, for that matter) striking if they think they think it is the right thing to do.

Teachers are not particularly well compensated, considering the educational requirements of the job.

 

[Bella the Ball 360]

Nursing.

And the rhetoric can be turned around: What other workers punish children to get financial advantages for themselves?

Again, nursing.

And for both nurses and teachers, both are chosen occupations. Folks in this thread are raising very good reasons for folks considering going into those occupations to re-think doing so. These are society-imposed disadvantages of becoming a teacher/nurse.

Compensation for nurses is almost double at top rate to that of a teacher AND I do not think that I have ever heard a public outcry that denounces nurses.
As to turning retoric around should we dress ourselves and our own children in sack cloth and ashes. Financial advantage by my definintion is making obscene amounts of money NOT asking to be paid within the realm reasonablity and equity. Honestly, I really think I should be paid more than than the garbage inspector if for no other reason because I have paid more for my education and CONTINuE to pay in order to continue my job which often includes providing school supplies and witner jackets for my students. I would have responded to this sooner but I was at Staples and Office Max purchasing supplies for the kids whose parents will not or cannot purchase them. I put them on the lavish expense account that my school gives me....oops I lied I payed for them out of my "finanacial advantage" monies!

 

[bicker]

Compensation for nurses is almost double at top rate to that of a teacher

Perhaps that has something to do with the whole life-and-death stuff. Perhaps not: When MLB baseball players make millions of dollars, there is no intended correlation between what people get paid and what work they do, other than that dictated by supply and demand.

AND I do not think that I have ever heard a public outcry that denounces nurses.

When they strike, absolutely. No difference whatsoever, Bella.

As to turning retoric around should we dress ourselves and our own children in sack cloth and ashes.

No one suggested that. The simple fact is that if you're going to use such rhetoric to your advantage, be prepared to have such rhetoric be used to your disadvantage. What you "should" do is make the best decisions for yourself; note how that does not include conspiring with others to deprive your employer of the ability to operate.

Honestly, I really think I should be paid more than than the garbage inspector if for no other reason because I have paid more for my education and CONTINuE to pay in order to continue.

How much education does Barry Bonds need to play baseball? He's made $188,245,322, so far. If you're going to try to use education to justify your expectations for what you get paid, you're going to have a lot of trouble in this society. Poverty, itself, is a completely different issue, but it applies to janitors as well as to teachers.

 

[tasha99]

Looking at my zipcode on salary.com

Public school teacher: 25th percentile 43, 376
75th percentile 57, 970

Staff nurse: 25th percentile 55, 475
75th percentile 66, 827

So while yes, nurses do make more, they don't make all that much more when you consider that they have to work many, many more hours than a school teacher and often are required to work shifts.

It's not all about the education required for a job since some nurses usually have a 2 or 4 year degree. It's about finding the match between a good salary and good people--if teachers in my area can be hired for around $50,000 + awesome benefits, that's what they'll make.

 

[golfgal]

Nursing.

And the rhetoric can be turned around: What other workers punish children to get financial advantages for themselves?

Again, nursing.

And for both nurses and teachers, both are chosen occupations. Folks in this thread are raising very good reasons for folks considering going into those occupations to re-think doing so. These are society-imposed disadvantages of becoming a teacher/nurse.

Around here teachers start at about $25,000, nurses $40,000+.

Looking at my zipcode on salary.com

Public school teacher: 25th percentile 43, 376
75th percentile 57, 970

Staff nurse: 25th percentile 55, 475
75th percentile 66, 827

So while yes, nurses do make more, they don't make all that much more when you consider that they have to work many, many more hours than a school teacher and often are required to work shifts.

It's not all about the education required for a job since some nurses usually have a 2 or 4 year degree. It's about finding the match between a good salary and good people--if teachers in my area can be hired for around $50,000 + awesome benefits, that's what they'll make.

I am sorry but nurse do NOT work more hours then teachers and any overtime they are paid time and a half. Many nurses have a 2 year degree, some a 4 year degree most do NOT have a masters while it is REQUIRED in our district. It is NOT the same educational level nor the same hours. Many nurses here work 30 hours/week and get paid for 40 or they work 4 10 hour shifts and have a 3 day weekend. NO work comes home with a nurse. Our school the teachers are required to be in school 1 1/2 hours longer then the kids which puts them at 9 1/2 hour/day WITHOUT doing homework, grading papers, etc. when they get home. It isn't even close the amount of time a teacher puts in vs a nurse.

 

[bicker]

So now we're going to have a nurse and teacher wrestle for it?

Do you realize how far off-topic you're dragging this thread?

 

[Bella the Ball 360]

So now we're going to have a nurse and teacher wrestle for it?

Do you realize how far off-topic you're dragging this thread?

HUH? Weren't you the one who introduced nurses into the mix?

 

[tasha99]

Around here teachers start at about $25,000, nurses $40,000+.



I am sorry but nurse do NOT work more hours then teachers and any overtime they are paid time and a half. Many nurses have a 2 year degree, some a 4 year degree most do NOT have a masters while it is REQUIRED in our district. It is NOT the same educational level nor the same hours. Many nurses here work 30 hours/week and get paid for 40 or they work 4 10 hour shifts and have a 3 day weekend. NO work comes home with a nurse. Our school the teachers are required to be in school 1 1/2 hours longer then the kids which puts them at 9 1/2 hour/day WITHOUT doing homework, grading papers, etc. when they get home. It isn't even close the amount of time a teacher puts in vs a nurse.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I was mostly talking about getting a couple months in the summer off as well as most of Christmas/Spring breaks. I see that as a perk and something that's built into the pay scale. I do think $25,000 is low, but that's the entry level--I'm guessing that it goes up with experience.

 

[gaelic grace]

I have 6 teachers in my immediate family, 4 good friends who are teachers and two kids in the public school system. I am well aware of how hard teachers work and the benefits and pitfalls of the job.

In the teaching profession, just like in the corporate world, there are positives and negatives. I'm not attacking you but if the corporate world is SO much better, is that where you are now?

I agree that teachers need an advocate. I don't see how merit pay can work because the end product of teaching is the student and there are so many factors that go into the individual success of a student. A teacher is one piece of the puzzle. The best teacher in the world has the cards stacked against them if the child has a lousy home life and parents who could give a damn about their education. The union also affords the same pay, benefits, and protection to lousy teachers that it does to the best teachers and I don't think there is a teacher or a parents out there who believes that all teachers are equal. That's not right either.

I am also aware of what teachers are paid in our area - I can't speak for all areas - only ours - and our teachers are paid fairly, they have good benefits.
I have no problem with teachers being unionized and having an advocate. I do not however, believe they should be able to strike. JMO

The problem is alot of former teachers are in the corporate world. Depending on the study you look at up to 50% of new teachers leave the profession within five years. This varies regionally but if even 25% leave that's a high number. I don't know of any other profession that has this kind of retention problem. This should concern everyone. It doesn't matter if you think teachers have too much time off, should be allowed to strike or whatever your individual gripe is. If Doctors, nurses, lawyers, engineers etc., were leaving at this rate you would hear alot more about it.
Believe me most people aren't leaving the profession for less pay. The deal is that teachers are able to find jobs in the private sector. My husband just had two friends leave teaching and they left solely because of the money. One of them told him that his dream "was to die in a classroom" but guess what? Baby number two was on the way and there was no way they could continue to have a middle class existence with a second child. He coached on the side and worked odd jobs to make ends meet. A company had been courting him for several years. Once his wife got pregnant the big raise, better benefits, expense account and no after hours or weekend work had to be considered. The shame is he was a wonderful teacher and all of our children are the worse off for the many like him that leave each year. I can't remember who said this but it goes something like "how public education goes there goes the nation" Folks we are feeling this everyday. It's easy to say "It's your choice, find another job" the problem is they can and they are. I love young teachers. They brind an enthusiasm and optimism that is unmatched but we can't have a teacher force of just the young and the ones that only have a couple of year to retire. Just think about the medical, legal or corporate world run mainly by people three years out of school? This is not about co-pays or who buys what supplies anymore this is a national crisis.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I hate to see any "us vs them" conversations about teachers and nurses. To me, we're cut from the same mold, and I mean that in a good way. Two of my best friends are teachers and we talk a lot about the similarities of our respective professions.

But since it was brought up - not many who aren't in the nursing profession understand our history. For anyone interested in reading about it and how collective bargaining came to be, here's a discussion about it from the American Nurses Association.

I could comment on some of the other things written on this page but I'll refrain since we're already OT.

 

[smidgy]

You obviously don't understand how the pay thing works. I have to take CE classes for my current job, they cost or $50 MAX and it is reimbursed by my employer. Teachers have to take COLLEGE level course costing several THOUSAND dollars. Often their course work costs more then any raise they get. In MN at least you have to continue taking CE courses through your entire career or your license won't be renewed. As for taking pay cuts, maybe that is happening in your area but it isn't here. I have NEVER worked in a corporate job, nor do I know of anyone that works in a corporate job that didn't have to opportunity for a raise every year. The only ones that didn't get a raise were the ones that were not doing their job. A 5% raise is basically cost of living increase, not a raise--BIG difference.

I OBVIOUSLY DO know what I'm talking about. You think I don't know any teachers? at a public university, it is not THOUSANDS of dollars. and the pay scale DOES go up,maybe not immediately, but sure makes up for it in a few years! and, no, In IL (where these teachers are going to strike) they don't HAVE to take CE to renew their certificate.
corporate world? yes, I did mention my son, which might have confused the issue. but hubby and I are NOT in the "corporate world". (which, by the way, is not doing so well either.. sears? Motorala?)

OP - what field are you in that "most of us... still lost, first our pay.... and lastly our jobs"?

I do not know anyone who has taken a pay cut, nor do I know anyone who has lost their jobs - companies are still hiring - though maybe at a slower rate.

!

wow. you live in a different chicago area than I. (sears and motorala are only 2 examples) I know of 4 dif people whose jobs were cut from these companies, due to lack of money, NOT job performance)and many others who lost their jobs.
actually, I was referring to my hubby. a highly trained machinist (yes, he did go to college, and the mathematics he needs to know for his job would make the average person's head spin)) worked for the same company for 27 years. first took a pay cut, then loss of hours (4 days a week) (not just him, all the workers) companyy went from over 100 people down to 20.then loss of benefits.. all trying to keep the company afloat. nope didn't work.... bank called the note. no job.
"just get another job??? right. he has had 5 dif. agencies trying for over a year. (not easy to get hired at the ripe old age of 54)this country could not exist without "bluecollar" workers, but manufacturing has taken a BIG hit, with outsourcing to dif. countires, etc.
it is not only teachers who go above and beyond. many people with a good "work ethic" do. like when hubby drove hundreds of miles , all night in a blinding thunderstrm to arrive at a company that need a repair head (multiple spindle drill head) and work on it all day with no sleep. his company needed him to do that. just ONE example of many.

it's funny you mention that-dh and i were just talking the other nite about how teachers and preachers have jobs that are so unique in the demands and requirements that extend outside their 'job location', and how their pay rarely reflects it. we then started talking about how we truely believe that the reasoning is because 'back in the day' communities paid little or nothing to both but provided shelter and food. that mind set just still sticks with some people-and they feel that if a person has a calling to educate or preach thier decision to answer that calling should negate any desire on their part for equitable compensation.

please. my grandfather was a minister. (shepherd/servant). I always said the minister's family should live at LEAST as comfortable as the average family in his congregation. back in the day? like "little House on the Prairie"" where people paid the doctor with crops and the school marm had a "room" provided?
give our intelligence more credit than that.

teachers are paid in IL based on the tax base. the more affluent the community, they can afford to pay more. our taxes are based on our home assessment, which keeps going up, even though our home values plummet.
referendums continue constantly. most of us who even voted YES on referendums didn't forsee losing work, getting pay cuts, etc. (me? I'm a waitress. people can't afford to dine out like they used to, and when they do, tips are down)
and in small towns, which became "bedroom" communities, the average family is struggling to make their mortgage. so it IRKS the average family to see teachers (paid by our tax dollars) striking , even though they are offered raises and increased benefits.
again, I am NOT putting down teachers. MANY people, (and I know a LOT of other people who took pay cuts and lost their jobs) are great at their jobs, sacrifice to do better, pay out of their own pocket for supplies (have you priced micrometers lately? machinist have to supply thier own tools) and DESERVE raises. and aren't getting them.
so that's why it irks me for teachers to threaten a strike when they are offered raises and more benefits.

 

[Bella the Ball 360]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I was mostly talking about getting a couple months in the summer off as well as most of Christmas/Spring breaks. I see that as a perk and something that's built into the pay scale. I do think $25,000 is low, but that's the entry level--I'm guessing that it goes up with experience.

Well I know people think that we get time off in the summer and it is built into the pay scale but even if you factor that in(and we are NOT paid for holidays, or vacations as in other types of jobs AND no OT)the money is still low. Time off is not a perq for so many reasons one being that we are expected to take a myriad of courses WITHOUT pay to be recertified which does cost money. We are EXPECTED to go in and set up our rooms WITHOUT pay for at least two to three full days before schools starts. We are expected to do quite a bit WITHOUT pay. Can we be forced leagally NO, but we are coerced. For example if we are beginning a new reading series, training is given in the summer ...no we do not have to go but we are told you will be expected to implement this series in the fall all 14 components of it.
I am not turning this into a nurses vs teachers discussion but since a poster threw them into the mix, I would like to know if there is an expectation that nurses put in tons of time without pay? Please note I am not asking this in a sarcastic manner, I am really curious. I will read it later however b/c now i am off to school to try and do some copying before the craziness starts (at 8:15 today).

 

[bicker]

HUH? Weren't you the one who introduced nurses into the mix?

That's not what's off-topic, but rather the discussion about which one has a marginally worse job than the other. As Pea-n-Me mentioned (and this was the point), they're "cut from the same cloth". Teachers are not the "only ones".

And I think that's part of the problem... each group figures they're special and deserve more than what they deserve. That perspective fosters destructive postures, such as strikes.

 

[barkley]

I OBVIOUSLY DO know what I'm talking about. You think I don't know any teachers? at a public university, it is not THOUSANDS of dollars. and the pay scale DOES go up,maybe not immediately, but sure makes up for it in a few years! and, no, In IL (where these teachers are going to strike) they don't HAVE to take CE to renew their certificate.
corporate world? yes, I did mention my son, which might have confused the issue. but hubby and I are NOT in the "corporate world". (which, by the way, is not doing so well either.. sears? Motorala?)


wow. you live in a different chicago area than I. (sears and motorala are only 2 examples) I know of 4 dif people whose jobs were cut from these companies, due to lack of money, NOT job performance)and many others who lost their jobs.
actually, I was referring to my hubby. a highly trained machinist (yes, he did go to college, and the mathematics he needs to know for his job would make the average person's head spin)) worked for the same company for 27 years. first took a pay cut, then loss of hours (4 days a week) (not just him, all the workers) companyy went from over 100 people down to 20.then loss of benefits.. all trying to keep the company afloat. nope didn't work.... bank called the note. no job.
"just get another job??? right. he has had 5 dif. agencies trying for over a year. (not easy to get hired at the ripe old age of 54)this country could not exist without "bluecollar" workers, but manufacturing has taken a BIG hit, with outsourcing to dif. countires, etc.
it is not only teachers who go above and beyond. many people with a good "work ethic" do. like when hubby drove hundreds of miles , all night in a blinding thunderstrm to arrive at a company that need a repair head (multiple spindle drill head) and work on it all day with no sleep. his company needed him to do that. just ONE example of many.


please. my grandfather was a minister. (shepherd/servant). I always said the minister's family should live at LEAST as comfortable as the average family in his congregation. back in the day? like "little House on the Prairie"" where people paid the doctor with crops and the school marm had a "room" provided?
give our intelligence more credit than that.

teachers are paid in IL based on the tax base. the more affluent the community, they can afford to pay more. our taxes are based on our home assessment, which keeps going up, even though our home values plummet.
referendums continue constantly. most of us who even voted YES on referendums didn't forsee losing work, getting pay cuts, etc. (me? I'm a waitress. people can't afford to dine out like they used to, and when they do, tips are down)
and in small towns, which became "bedroom" communities, the average family is struggling to make their mortgage. so it IRKS the average family to see teachers (paid by our tax dollars) striking , even though they are offered raises and increased benefits.
again, I am NOT putting down teachers. MANY people, (and I know a LOT of other people who took pay cuts and lost their jobs) are great at their jobs, sacrifice to do better, pay out of their own pocket for supplies (have you priced micrometers lately? machinist have to supply thier own tools) and DESERVE raises. and aren't getting them.
so that's why it irks me for teachers to threaten a strike when they are offered raises and more benefits.

actualy-'back in the day' still happens in some areas now. the school in the rural town near us exists only by virtue of it's system wherein low wages are offset to some degree by providing free housing to their staff.

 

[golfgal]

If you add up the days teachers work, which is many more then the kids are actually in school, it works out to be the same as someone working in the corporate world with their paid vacations, sick leave and personal days. It just happens that teachers get the bulk of that time off over the summer. My Dh has WAY more days off then the teachers in our district. Now, for a starting worker in the corporate world this might not be the case so that is a 'perk'.

I would LOVE for you to tell me where you can get a masters degree for under $1000. I know a LOT of people that would gladly go there.

 

[bsnyder]

Mickey Kaus at Slate reports on his blog the following information from the Democratic Convention in Denver. The bold emphasis is all his:

Things We Thought We'd Never See: Democrats Rally Against the Teachers' Unions! I went to the Ed Challenge for Change event mainly to schmooze. I almost didn't stay for the panels, being in no mood for what I expected would, even among these reformers, be an hour of vague EdBlob talk about "change" and "accountability" and "resources" that would tactfully ignore the elephant in the room, namely the teachers' unions. I was so wrong. One panelist--I think it was Peter Groff, president of the Colorado State Senate, got the ball rolling by complaining that when the children's agenda meets the adult agenda, the "adult agenda wins too often." Then Cory Booker of Newark attacked teachers unions specifically--and there was applause. In a room of 500 people at the Democratic convention! "The politics are so vicious," Booker complained, remembering how he'd been told his political career would be over if he kept pushing school choice, how early on he'd gotten help from Republicans rather than from Democrats. The party would "have to admit as Democrats we have been wrong on education." Loud applause! Mayor Adrian Fenty of D.C. joined in, describing the AFT's attempt to block the proposed pathbreaking D.C. teacher contract. Booker denounced "insane work rules," and Groff talked about doing the bidding of "those folks who are giving money [for campaigns], and you know who I'm talking about." Yes, they did!

As Jon Alter, moderating the next panel, noted, it was hard to imagine this event happening at the previous Democratic conventions. (If it had there would have been maybe 15 people in the room, not 500.) Alter called it a "landmark" future historians should note. Maybe he was right.

P.S.: My favorite moment didn't concern the unions. It came when NYC schools chief Joel Klein called for a single national testing standard. Groff, a crowd favorite, made the conventional local elected officials' objection that you need flexibiity, one size doesn't fit all, "what works" in County X might not work in County Y. And he was booed! Loudly. By Democratic education wonks. Wow. (The "one size" argument cropped up in the welfare reform debate too--and I assume it's just as bogus in the education debate. We're a national economy with cities that look more or less alike. What works in County X is almost certainly also going to work in County Y.)

P.P.S.: John Wilson, head of the NEA itself, was also there. Afterwards, he seemed a bit stunned. He argued pols should work with unions, in pursuit of a "shared vision," not bash them. But isn't this a power struggle where you have to bash the other side to get leverage, I asked. "Then you have losers," he answered.