Teacher Phone Calls

In the 25+ years my mom taught, I remember her calling parents all the time after school hours. There were too many people who weren't available during the day to be reached, it just made more sense.

What I recommend is to keep a log of each time you call, anytime the teacher calls (and leaves a message) and if after a little bit more, you don't receive a response, take it back to the AP.

This may boil down to calling in a conference between the 3 of you to make sure your concerns are addressed.

Stick with it and make sure they give you some kind of answer to your concerns.

My thought is that I think they think you are being over-protective, but I highly doubt that is your case. It wouldn't bother you so much if it were - you have some legitimate concerns. Keep reminding them that you have some concerns and would like to discuss them for the benefit of everyone involved.

Good luck!
 
This bothers me. I'm a teacher, and my personal life is not the business of any of my student's parents as long as I am fulfilling the requirements of my contracted time and I am a law abiding citizen. I have a sister with special needs; therefore, I can understand your want to talk to the teacher, but if that's the attitude you've been giving her I can understand why she isn't going out of her way to meet with you.

I don't have children. Does that make my non contracted time less important that the next teacher's? I don't think so.

I don't give out my home phone number. There are parents out there who think that it's okay to call at 11 PM at night (and it's not considering I have to get up very early the next morning to educate their child). Your son's teacher has done what is required of her. She probably tells all parents that she'll only talk to them during x hours because she's had so many parents not meet with her during those times. There does become a point where you rearrange your schedule so many times and the other person "forgets" to meet with you; therefore, as a teacher you say I'm only available during time x that's convenient for you. You would be surprised how many parents don't uphold their part of the bargain for a meeting.

Unfortunately, many members of society downgrade teachers and are overall pretty rude to them which is ironic since society trusts their children to their care for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week 10 months a year for about 15 years of their lives.

For some reason, whenenver someone quotes the "the teacher is single with no kids, fyi" thing, my name comes up as the poster. I believe that was the OP saying that, in a quote to me. Anyway, just wanted to put that back out there since I 100% agree that it makes no difference what the teacher's home life is like in whether she should take calls after hours. :thumbsup2

OP, I think the story has changed a little since I first started posting on this thread. Initially, it sounded like "there is no way in the world for me to change my schedule in the mornings, and I COULD change my afternoon schedule to take a call from the teacher between 1 and 2, but I've been burned by that before when a teacher didn't call me when she was supposed to -- so now I refuse to try to do that again". (obviously this is all paraphrased by me and I apologize if I misunderstood).

In your later posts, you make it sound as though you have actually called this teacher numerous times during the hours SHE gave you, and have not gotten to speak with her. Well, that's obviously a totally different situation. In that case, I would just call the principal and say, okay, I need to speak to Ms. X and she is not available when she said she would be. I bet she would be available the very next day between 1 and 2 in that case!

I agree with a PP that OP has pretty much already decided in her mind that this teacher and school do not care about her son and that he is just a number. All I can say is, that probably comes across in the way you speak/deal with them -- and you know you get more flies with honey!! You want them to understand YOUR situation, try to understand from their point of view dealing with hundreds of families day in and day out -- MANY of whom feel they should get the extra special attention that your son (but probably not theirs) needs.
 
As someone new to the Dis and looking for some info, I am shocked at some responses on this thread. I just read the whole thing with my mouth hanging open I think.
This OP was stating and clarified that she was surprised that after she and the teacher were unable to reach eachother about a specific matter that seems to have been important that the teacher would not make an effort in that circumstance to contact her outside of her "posted" hours. She was asking for others thoughts on that one situation and clarified that.
PPs took this to say she was unwilling to change her schedule and wanted the teacher to open up her home hours and be on call and all kinds of assumptions. :scared1:
It sounds like she has changed her schedule a lot and tries to work within the teachers hours but when the AP told her to talk to the teacher, they were unable to reach eachother. She was asking, not if teachers should be on call 24/7, but if they EVER made an exception to their call hours.
She specifically clarified that she brought up single without children only because so many PPs mentioned that.
She stated she was not looking for advice and has taken care of her sick sons needs.
She stated that this incident seemed heartless, agreeing with a PP.
Where did "dug in your heels" even come from? Op stated the issue has been addressed.
The "teacher bashing" began occurring not because of anything OP said, but the teachers stating that their time is their time and that is that and commenting that they are the only profession that is ever asked to do anything out of work hours. In fact, OP stated she has had some "wonderful" people in the school system. MANY professions work outside their hours sometimes and I know my doctor called me when he was not on call, so he was not being paid and surely could have left the issue to the on call doc, but chose to speak to me.
When OP seemed irritated, it was towards nicki.momof3 who had taken it upon herself to analyze Ops post times and then assume her life and then make inaccurate comments about it-WOW-
PP said OP was changing her story about times, but what I read is that she wasn't able to write a book but was trying to clarify to some of the comments being made with inaccurate assumptions.
What I don't understand is why someone like nicki..... would feel so aggressive towards this mom with a sick boy who has obviously not had a great experiences in the public school system and wanted to know if her experience was the norm. She must not be that bad if she loved all the private school teachers her other kids ever had. She must not hate teachers that much. If she feels like her kid is a number that is sad, and she said this reason is low on the list.
I think posters need to read before they post- some of this is just plain rude.
To the Op, if you are still reading. I sympathize with you regarding your sick son, your experience at school and your experience here. I hope your boy is ok. To answer your question...
I am a mom and a teacher. As a mom, my daughters first grade teacher did call me in the evneing once. As a teacher, I try to handle work during my planning but have had many working parents, etc who I could not reach and did call them at night. My husband and children have not suffered. Be careful not to think that because a couple public school teachers perform their job a certain way, we all do. In the end, yes, it surprises me, too, that given that your boy is sick, the AP asked that you speak to her about something specific, you were concerned about the effect on your son, and you clearly have made efforts to communicate that she would not make a call, even if she normally does not. My students are young second graders and I would not want one of them to suffer because of something as simple as office hours if a simple conversation could avoid that.
Good luck to you.:grouphug:
 
The question was..
as a parent- if you had a concern and the teacher and you were unable to connect before the end of the school day would you think a teacher would, in certain circumstances make a call outside of school hours?
to a teacher- if you and a child with multiple complicated needs were unable to connect, would you make a phone call after school hrs?

In answer to the original questions, in case the OP is still reading:
No, as a parent I do not expect a teacher to make an exception and call me outside of school hours. I might expect that if the teacher was never available to communicate during school hours, but certainly not if the teacher did have hours available for communication during the school day. I know that my child is my responsibility, and if a sacrifice needs to be made to allow me to communicate with his teacher then that sacrifice needs to be mine and not the teacher's. If that means that I need to take time off of work or hire a babysitter so I can talk to the teacher then that's what I do. I would not ask the teacher to work outside of her scheduled hours if there was any way at all to avoid that. I have no way of knowing what demands she has for her time outside of school, and it isn't my business to know that. I do not feel entitled to ask for any of her time unless there is literally no other option.

As a teacher, I might make time outside of school hours to communicate with a parent about a special needs student if it would be otherwise impossible for us to communicate. I would not use my personal time to communicate with a parent who was unwilling to rearrange her schedule to communicate with me during school hours.

I agree with those who said they would have scheduled a phone conference at a specific time during during the teacher's available hours. If she was unwilling to schedule a call during those hours or if she didn't call when she said she would, then a call to the principal would have been in order.



Just an observation, OP: at this point it appears to me that you have dug in your heels and written this teacher off. The tone of your postings -- and yes, I did read my way all the way through ALL of these pages! -- is that she needs to accommodate you exactly the way you wish, and if she does not then she is a heartless and worthless teacher.

My guess is that she harbors similar bad feelings about you, probably telling HER online community about the unreasonable and difficult parent she must deal with! Neither of you is doing your child any favors at this point. So here is my suggestion:

First, please decide exactly what you think you would like to have done, BOTH about how to communicate in the future AND about the original issue of your child's needs. Make notes. Have a specific plan. If you think the IEP is not being fulfilled, take your copy and hightlight the points in question.

Next, go to your principal and let him or her know that you are at an impasse. Say that you have tried to communicate directly with the teacher, but that the two of you are not commincating well and that you would like an objective person to sit down with both of you to help you work things out. Do not complain about the teacher at this time, as this will get you no where. Just ask for a meeting. And take it from there.

Now, as for my own 2 cents, I am really discouraged by the teacher-bashing that has occured in some of these posts. :sad1: I would say that I and the vast majority my fellow teachers give 100% to our students and their parents. Most of us DO work after hours almost every day. Most of us DO communicate with parents as best we can. Most of us do whatever is necessary to meet the needs of our students, especially those who have the greatest needs.

BUT... all of us can also recount horror stories of demanding parents who seem to think that their child is the only one in the classroom. I do right by the kids during the school day, but I go out of my way to avoid these parents!:scared1: Please don't be one.

I can only imagine how hard it is to have to advocate every day for your special needsd child. But please, PLEASE remeber that there is a human being on the other side of the desk doing her best to juggle the needs of your child with the other 20 children in her classroom, and still have some enrgy left over for herself.

I had a parent curse me out once for refusing to stop a lesson to talk with her. When I pointed out that I was trying to teach, she replied, "I don't care about the other children. I only care about mine." And she was right. That was her job. But MINE was to care about ALL of them, and then go home and care for my own kids. It's really hard sometimes to be all that.

Be strong, but also be kind.

If I could agree with this more than 100%, I would. This was so well stated, and if the OP is still reading I hope she takes it to heart.
 

In answer to the original questions, in case the OP is still reading:
No, as a parent I do not expect a teacher to make an exception and call me outside of school hours. I might expect that if the teacher was never available to communicate during school hours, but certainly not if the teacher did have hours available for communication during the school day. I know that my child is my responsibility, and if a sacrifice needs to be made to allow me to communicate with his teacher then that sacrifice needs to be mine and not the teacher's.

Actually, if its something that is important and the parent made the attempt to contact the teacher during the teachers normal communication hours and, as in the op's case, THE TEACHER DID NOT MAKE HERSELF AVAILABLE, then yes the teacher should contact the parent after hours, especially when it is a medical need issue. In fact, the SCHOOL should have made sure the two properly communicated because if something happens to the child and the teacher was not available to get the information needed from the parent, then the school and possibly even the teacher could be held liable.

When the clock hits 5:00pm and I still have phone calls that are important to be made, they get made after hours. I have to prioritize my calls based on the information I have. For a teacher who has a child with as serious of medical issues as was indicated in the op, the teacher should realize that any communication from the parent is likely to be highly important and needs to be addressed immediately versus the next time the teacher may by chance find themselves available to speak with the parent during one half hour time frame and one hour time frame.
 
Actually, if its something that is important and the parent made the attempt to contact the teacher during the teachers normal communication hours and, as in the op's case, THE TEACHER DID NOT MAKE HERSELF AVAILABLE, then yes the teacher should contact the parent after hours, especially when it is a medical need issue. In fact, the SCHOOL should have made sure the two properly communicated because if something happens to the child and the teacher was not available to get the information needed from the parent, then the school and possibly even the teacher could be held liable.

When the clock hits 5:00pm and I still have phone calls that are important to be made, they get made after hours. I have to prioritize my calls based on the information I have. For a teacher who has a child with as serious of medical issues as was indicated in the op, the teacher should realize that any communication from the parent is likely to be highly important and needs to be addressed immediately versus the next time the teacher may by chance find themselves available to speak with the parent during one half hour time frame and one hour time frame.

I guess I assumed (and I know what they say about assuming:rotfl:) that it couldn't have been a medical emergency, since the OP said her son always has a nurse with him at school. Since she said the nurse is always available to communicate with her, I assumed that if the issue was an important health-related issue that the nurse would be aware of it. In that case it wouldn't matter if the teacher was aware or not, since the nurse would be able to protect the child and pass the information on to the teacher. If I remember correctly the OP said she never sends her son to school without the nurse, so there should never be a time when the nurse isn't able to convey important information about the child's needs to the teacher if necessary. Given that information, the teacher may not feel that a call during her personal time is warranted, especially since she does have time available during school hours. She may assume that any time-sensitive information regarding the child's health would be communicated to the nurse, who could then pass the information on to the teacher as needed.

I saw that the OP tried to reach the teacher during her planning time, but I'm unclear about whether she tried to schedule a specific appointment time for the call and of course it's possible that the teacher had other phone calls or conferences to attend to when the OP called her. If the OP actually tried to schedule a specific time during the teacher's available hours to communicate with the teacher and the teacher was completely unwilling to schedule a time for the call then I agree that the teacher was in the wrong. That's definitely something that should be taken up with the principal.

I am a bit confused since the OP said whatever she needed to talk to the teacher about would only take 10 minutes, but that it was too complicated to email about. I would have thought that a very specific email would be more useful to communicate complicated information than a 10 minute phone call would be. It seems like anything too complicated to email about would probably also be too complicated for a brief phone call, and so a series of emails (or even a face-to-face conference) might be a better choice. Plus, with something this important I personally would feel more comfortable having everything in writing rather than relying on the teacher remembering all the details of a quick phone call.
 
Dear OP: I have to say that as a high school teacher I am shocked at all of the responses from teachers and parents who are saying that this teacher should not give up 10 minutes in the late afternoon or evening to listen to you. This is obviously not an average student. I have a student in my public school class who is terminally ill. He does not know this,, but his disease is degenerative and there is no cure. I have gladly called his mom off hours (she needs to work to keep insurance for the family). I became a teacher to help. We are not talking about a huge sacrifice...it is 10 minutes. I too have young kids and obligations, but I can't understand teachers who won't make very small sacrifices for the good of their students!
 
I just saw this and completely agree.



Actually, if its something that is important and the parent made the attempt to contact the teacher during the teachers normal communication hours and, as in the op's case, THE TEACHER DID NOT MAKE HERSELF AVAILABLE, then yes the teacher should contact the parent after hours, especially when it is a medical need issue. In fact, the SCHOOL should have made sure the two properly communicated because if something happens to the child and the teacher was not available to get the information needed from the parent, then the school and possibly even the teacher could be held liable.

When the clock hits 5:00pm and I still have phone calls that are important to be made, they get made after hours. I have to prioritize my calls based on the information I have. For a teacher who has a child with as serious of medical issues as was indicated in the op, the teacher should realize that any communication from the parent is likely to be highly important and needs to be addressed immediately versus the next time the teacher may by chance find themselves available to speak with the parent during one half hour time frame and one hour time frame.
 
[QUOTE="Cinder" Ella's Mom;35648224]Dear OP: I have to say that as a high school teacher I am shocked at all of the responses from teachers and parents who are saying that this teacher should not give up 10 minutes in the late afternoon or evening to listen to you. This is obviously not an average student. I have a student in my public school class who is terminally ill. He does not know this,, but his disease is degenerative and there is no cure. I have gladly called his mom off hours (she needs to work to keep insurance for the family). I became a teacher to help. We are not talking about a huge sacrifice...it is 10 minutes. I too have young kids and obligations, but I can't understand teachers who won't make very small sacrifices for the good of their students![/QUOTE]

Most teachers that posted aren't saying they WON'T EVER make a call in the evening; they are saying they shouldn't just be expected to. There is a difference.
 
[QUOTE="Cinder" Ella's Mom;35648224]Dear OP: I have to say that as a high school teacher I am shocked at all of the responses from teachers and parents who are saying that this teacher should not give up 10 minutes in the late afternoon or evening to listen to you. This is obviously not an average student. I have a student in my public school class who is terminally ill. He does not know this,, but his disease is degenerative and there is no cure. I have gladly called his mom off hours (she needs to work to keep insurance for the family). I became a teacher to help. We are not talking about a huge sacrifice...it is 10 minutes. I too have young kids and obligations, but I can't understand teachers who won't make very small sacrifices for the good of their students![/QUOTE]

Thank you for your care and compassion. You are the kind of teacher that I have had with my kids each and every year. When DDs teacher had personal issues with a medically fragile child, the entire classroom of parents came together and made life a little easier for the teacher as well. Kindness is a two way street and no teacher's child is sacrificed for the sake of a 10 minute phone call. :flower3:
 
Most teachers that posted aren't saying they WON'T EVER make a call in the evening; they are saying they shouldn't just be expected to. There is a difference.

EXACTLY!!!! OP's original question was if she was reasonable in expecting a call in the evening. That question was asked before we knew more about her situation, but even then, the question was if it should be expected in general. My answer was no, in general, it should not be expected. That does not mean that I have never done or would never do something "after hours" in special cases, and I'm sure that goes for the other teachers who posted similar answers.
 
EXACTLY!!!! OP's original question was if she was reasonable in expecting a call in the evening. That question was asked before we knew more about her situation, but even then, the question was if it should be expected in general. My answer was no, in general, it should not be expected. That does not mean that I have never done or would never do something "after hours" in special cases, and I'm sure that goes for the other teachers who posted similar answers.

Did the OP change her post? Because right now the OP seems pretty specific that she has tried to call several times during the "assigned time" and that she hasn't been able to reach the teacher, that the matter is urgent and relates to her child's severe medical needs, and that it is challenging for her to repeatedly change her work schedule on the off chance that the teacher MIGHT call at that time, given that she hasn't it in the past. She also mentioned that she's spoken to this teacher twice so far this year, which hardly makes her a helicopter mom.

It seems to me, and as a special ed teacher I may be biased, that the teacher has a responsibility here -- either she can say "I'm so sorry, I promise I will call tomorrow between 1:05 an 1:15" and stick to that promise, or she can give out a cell phone and say "If you call between 1 and 2 I promise I'll answer this line, please don't use at any other time" or she can say "I'll call in the evening just this once".

Children with special needs sometimes have, well, special needs, and more frequent parent-teacher communication is often one of them. The law is very specific that teachers and schools need to go the extra mile to meet those needs. The OP isn't asking for much, just a return phone call. Surely the teacher can distinguish between "I need to talk to you about my child's genuine medical need" and "My special snowflake came home crying because they've only gotten to be line leader twice this week, so I dug up your unlisted phone number and demand that you talk to me right now".
 
Did the OP change her post? Because right now the OP seems pretty specific that she has tried to call several times during the "assigned time" and that she hasn't been able to reach the teacher, that the matter is urgent and relates to her child's severe medical needs, and that it is challenging for her to repeatedly change her work schedule on the off chance that the teacher MIGHT call at that time, given that she hasn't it in the past. She also mentioned that she's spoken to this teacher twice so far this year, which hardly makes her a helicopter mom.

I could have misunderstood, but I don't think this teacher is the one who said she would call and then didn't. In one of her early posts on this thread, the OP said she was hesitant to reschedule her work so the teacher could call because she had rescheduled for someone else at school in the past and they hadn't called. I think a great deal of this hinges on just how many times the OP has tried to contact the teacher during her posted hours and whether she ever tried to schedule a specific appointment. If she calls every day and never gets through, or if the teacher has refused to schedule an appointment during her posted hours, then clearly the teacher is not doing her job properly.

With regard to the bolded, it still makes more sense to me that the OP should talk to the nurse who goes to school with her son every day about medical issues rather than talking to the teacher. I wonder if the teacher sees this as less urgent simply because she is not ever expected to handle the medical issues and so assumes that the OP is attempting to talk to her about something academic instead, in which case she might feel it is more appropriate for the OP to discuss it during school hours. I would hope that if the teacher had reason to believe that a frantic parent was repeatedly trying to contact her about a serious medical issue with a student that she would make the time to contact that parent, even if it meant calling outside of school hours.
 
I am a teacher and I have called parents back on many occasions from my home and my cell phones. Unfortunately, I have had parents that abused this fact. I am a single parent and after school prefer to devote those few precious hours to my child. I hope that it is acceptable to say this but I wonder what kind of relationship that this teacher and parent have. The tone of the original poster seemed very demanding as if since she was available one time the teacher needs to now do whatever it takes to make things happen. I would not go out of my way for a parent like this when the teacher has made it clear that she has scheduled conference times and the parent needs to work around that. I was also bothered by the fact that the poster said that the teacher was not married and had no family. That does not matter at all. Her private time is her time. My school requires us to stay for 30 minutes after school during which time I have returned calls, conferenced with parents, tutored kids (always for free and boy could I use that money), etc.. I love my kids and give my all while I am at school. After school, I love my daughter and she is going to get my all for the rest of the day. I am very sorry for the op and all that she has to deal with but there are two sides to this situation and we are only hearing one side. Interesting that she doesn't want to hear anything else.
 
And, I did not find the OP saying I expect her to be available to me at all hours on a regular basis. She said "Thoughts? Is this typical?
How many parents have had teachers call them after school hours? How many teachers have called parents after school hours? " It sounds pretty clear she had something important for her son that the AP told her to discuss with the teacher not the nurse and was surprised at the rigidity of the teacher and wanted to know if this was typical. It sounds like she is asking if it is EVER done, not if teachers would do it weekly. She later explained to those criticizing her and telling her to change her schedule or just email that she does usually email. The PPs that talked about how the teacher must feel about OP must know a lot more about this situation than what the OP said in this thread, because she never even mentioned talking to the teacher about it or "digging in her heels" about anything. If anything, it sounds like she was disappointed in the teachers response, and was wondering if others would be. I agree with the PP who said 2 phone calls this year is hardly a helicopter parent who should be bashed by all teachers.
I am happy to see some other teachers representing those of us who are not so self absorbed as to make the assumptions and comments I have seen here. No, I hope my students families don't think I live to be at their beck and call, but a phone call in the evening to help a sick child- no problem there. I am sure there are other teachers who agree.
 
Did the OP change her post? Because right now the OP seems pretty specific that she has tried to call several times during the "assigned time" and that she hasn't been able to reach the teacher, that the matter is urgent and relates to her child's severe medical needs, and that it is challenging for her to repeatedly change her work schedule on the off chance that the teacher MIGHT call at that time, given that she hasn't it in the past. She also mentioned that she's spoken to this teacher twice so far this year, which hardly makes her a helicopter mom.

It seems to me, and as a special ed teacher I may be biased, that the teacher has a responsibility here -- either she can say "I'm so sorry, I promise I will call tomorrow between 1:05 an 1:15" and stick to that promise, or she can give out a cell phone and say "If you call between 1 and 2 I promise I'll answer this line, please don't use at any other time" or she can say "I'll call in the evening just this once".

Children with special needs sometimes have, well, special needs, and more frequent parent-teacher communication is often one of them. The law is very specific that teachers and schools need to go the extra mile to meet those needs. The OP isn't asking for much, just a return phone call. Surely the teacher can distinguish between "I need to talk to you about my child's genuine medical need" and "My special snowflake came home crying because they've only gotten to be line leader twice this week, so I dug up your unlisted phone number and demand that you talk to me right now".

Quoted below are the two times that I was referencing. They are from her first and third posts, I believe, in which she gave some specific details and then asked a general question about calls after hours.

Looking for opinions from parents and teachers......
How many parents have had teachers call them after school hours? How many teachers have called parents after school hours?

The bottom line question was, when something can't be fully explained by email, is it reasonable to think that a teacher would make a call after school hours if they were unable to reach the parent within a day, so that the childs needs can be met.


If you read my first post (and the only in which I said much of anything other than this one), you'd see that I gave her some suggestions to help get the communication lines open. I do totally agree with you that the teacher could/should do either of the two things that you suggested.

I actually majored in special education and taught special ed for several years before I moved to the regular classroom. I am usually given the tutorial students because of my sped background. So, I totally understand that children with special needs have special needs. That's why I gave her one of the suggestions in my original post. But, I still do not think an after hour call should be expected in general. Have I done it? Yes. Have I done many other things out of the ordinary for my kids with and without special needs? Yes. And I bet that most (if not all) of the teachers who answered the way I did have also gone and would go the extra mile for their kids.
 
I could have misunderstood, but I don't think this teacher is the one who said she would call and then didn't. . . .
With regard to the bolded, it still makes more sense to me that the OP should talk to the nurse who goes to school with her son every day about medical issues rather than talking to the teacher.

I'm basing that part of my post on this:

AP tells me to talk to the teacher whenever there are any questions. A couple times I call the teacher and we don't reach eachother

I don't know if the teacher said she'd call, but it sounds like the OP has made several attempts to contact the teacher.

I would also assume that if the assistant principal is saying that the teacher should know, then that the teacher should know.
 
As a former teacher, during the work day, I gave 100% to my job and my students. When my paid hours were over, I left immediately to get my kids out of daycare and give 100% to them. The teacher may have kids or other circumstances in her life that need her attention just as much as your child needs yours. Now if a parent was in your situation and talked to me about it, I would have no problem taking time occasionally to talk with her after hours, so you may just need to discuss your situation with the teacher. If that doesn't work, call the principal to discuss what your options are.

This reply could have been written by me and was the exact advice I was going to give. Send a note explaining your situation and asking for an evening phone call and if the teacher can not accomodate you- go to the principal and if all else fails you will need to rearrange your schedule one day. Sorry they aren't be more accomodating, my child has a minor disability and I always feel like I have to fight for EVERYTHING!!
 


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