Talking about budget buster! Gasoline...

[Zippa D Doodah]

There are times when I think the sensible thing would be for me to trade in for a hybrid, but my paid-for vehicle which gets 21mpg has one fantastic thing going for it: it is paid for. Both my vehicles are paid for and I LOVE not having a car payment.
I put money back each month for the eventual purchase of a new car, but I am sure gonna miss it when it is gone.

 

[Disneycrazymom]

Great plan Moberg! Too bad common sense is not so common anymore!

 

[momof1princess]

Great plan Moberg! Too bad common sense is not so common anymore!

i love that quote, lol, dr. phil says it a lot too: "common sense ain't so common anymore!"

 

[momof1princess]

You probably didn't mean me, but here is my plan: Drill, Drill, Drill! Off shore, ANWAR, Oil Shale, anywhere and everywhere! At the same time, work to improve the alternatives, because they aren't anywhere near efficient enough at present to replace much of anything. All of this will allow us to dump some foreign oil. As alternatives increase in efficiency, dump a little more foreign oil. When it increases enough to dump all foreign oil, then we can start backing off our domestic oil. Eventually alternatives will take over and oil consumption will be at a bare minimum.


Edit: Colleen27, I finally finished reading your post and realized you said about the same thing. So .. great idea! I like it!

and how about, in addition to this, when the government issues the domestic drilling permits, they make them contingent upon the oil companies also investing in alternative energy, so that when the oil runs out a few decades down the road, we have viable energy alternatives. i don't see why they can't do both.

 

[JCJRSmith]

You probably didn't mean me, but here is my plan: Drill, Drill, Drill! Off shore, ANWAR, Oil Shale, anywhere and everywhere! At the same time, work to improve the alternatives, because they aren't anywhere near efficient enough at present to replace much of anything. All of this will allow us to dump some foreign oil. As alternatives increase in efficiency, dump a little more foreign oil. When it increases enough to dump all foreign oil, then we can start backing off our domestic oil. Eventually alternatives will take over and oil consumption will be at a bare minimum.


Edit: Colleen27, I finally finished reading your post and realized you said about the same thing. So .. great idea! I like it!

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/0...-industry-sitting-on-7200-drilling-21290.html

Who is "we"? If "we" drill in ANWR, how do we get the oil to the US? The pipeline doesn't have the capacity, and getting enough tankers up to the ports in Alaska is cost-prohibitive.

Who pays for the cost of building the refineries ? Where do "we" put them? Refineries are dirty, smelly, noisy operations, so now we get into the NIMBY arguments.

Who funds the infrastructure to get the oil to the refineries and to get the refined product to market?

Oil companies have drilling leases that they are not using. How do "we" go about making them use those leases? They are making record profits as it is. What makes it worth their while to sink the billions of dollars into the cost of drilling when they have a duty to their shareholders to maximize profits while keeping costs down? What guarantee is there that any oil taken from the ground in the US STAYS in the US?

 

[Marionnette]

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/0...-industry-sitting-on-7200-drilling-21290.html

Who is "we"? If "we" drill in ANWR, how do we get the oil to the US? The pipeline doesn't have the capacity, and getting enough tankers up to the ports in Alaska is cost-prohibitive.

Who pays for the cost of building the refineries ? Where do "we" put them? Refineries are dirty, smelly, noisy operations, so now we get into the NIMBY arguments.

Who funds the infrastructure to get the oil to the refineries and to get the refined product to market?

Oil companies have drilling leases that they are not using. How do "we" go about making them use those leases? They are making record profits as it is. What makes it worth their while to sink the billions of dollars into the cost of drilling when they have a duty to their shareholders to maximize profits while keeping costs down? What guarantee is there that any oil taken from the ground in the US STAYS in the US?

The same refineries that are refining foreign oil can handle domestic oil. You were aware that it comes to the U.S. as crude aren't you?

Those same tankers that go to Brazil can go to Alaska instead.

No need for extra funding of the infrastructure. We use what we have in place instead. The only difference is where the crude comes from.

And by opening up drilling for oil in our own land and off our own shores, we reduce the threat of an unstable Middle Eastern government shutting down oil production in order to hold us "hostage" to their whims.

ETA: Regarding existing leases...not every piece of leased land has sufficient amounts of natural gas or oil to make it affordable to explore. They sit on that land in the hopes that either methods of obtaining those resources improve to the point where it is affordable or else the price of those commodities reaches a point where it is worth going after them. So instead of allowing them to drill where there are large pockets of easily accessible oil, many will point to those leases that are already held by the oil companies and say "drill there first". It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[momof1princess]

The same refineries that are refining foreign oil can handle domestic oil. You were aware that it comes to the U.S. as crude aren't you?

Those same tankers that go to Brazil can go to Alaska instead.

No need for extra funding of the infrastructure. We use what we have in place instead. The only difference is where the crude comes from.

And by opening up drilling for oil in our own land and off our own shores, we reduce the threat of an unstable Middle Eastern government shutting down oil production in order to hold us "hostage" to their whims.

 

[BoogasMom]

And that's it exactly - we need someone to step forward and say "This is our plan, let's get this under control". Oil is a publicly traded commodity, and much of what we see in the pricing is anticipation of future demand. We as a nation are doing NOTHING to suggest that demand will decrease in the foreseeable future, so oil is a safe bet for a high return at a time when the rest of the economy is fairly uncertain.

But there is this black-and-white mindset that seems to dominate on the issues these days - people are looking for the one silver bullet solution and don't seem to want anything to do with the complexities of solving major problems. An answer like "We're going to clear the way for domestic oil production to bring down prices in the short term, while focusing on improving efficiency and alternative technologies as well as weaning agriculture (the second-largest consumer of oil, after transportation) off oil-intensive methods, expanding public transportation options and re-localizing communities, to decrease demand in the long run." just doesn't make a good sound bite. But that kind of leadership and goal is what we need, even if each facet doesn't make a vast difference individually, because 1) every little bit helps and 2) sending the message that we're serious about decreasing dependence on oil makes oil a less "safe" and therefore less attractive vehicle for speculator dollars.

Very nicely worded!!! Thanks for taking the time to post it.

 

[JCJRSmith]

The same refineries that are refining foreign oil can handle domestic oil. You were aware that it comes to the U.S. as crude aren't you?

Those same tankers that go to Brazil can go to Alaska instead.

No need for extra funding of the infrastructure. We use what we have in place instead. The only difference is where the crude comes from.

And by opening up drilling for oil in our own land and off our own shores, we reduce the threat of an unstable Middle Eastern government shutting down oil production in order to hold us "hostage" to their whims.

Did you read the article I linked? 7200 drilling permits exist right now, that are going UNUSED by the oil companies. Why are they not using them?Whether a Middle Eastern government is unstable or not, it is more cost effective for the oil companies to import from those countries rather than initiate those leases they have already been granted. "Drill Baby Drill" is a non-starter, and there are no incentives to the oil companies to keep oil taken from US soil and make it remain in the US. Or, if, as you suggest, the existing refineries use domestic oil instead of foreign oil to provide us gasoline, why would they lower the price below what it is now? And these companies DO NOT CARE if it costs you more to fill your tank as long as they are making record profits and keeping their shareholders happy.

The only way to combat the high cost of oil is to get off oil all together.
I would rather the US start funding more research along the lines of what is talked about in this article:
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/researchers-develop-more-powerful-biofuel-alt

Then, we would not have to destroy our own environment to extract a resource that is going to eventually disappear.

 

[Marionnette]

Did you read the article I linked? 7200 drilling permits exist right now, that are going UNUSED by the oil companies. Why are they not using them?Whether a Middle Eastern government is unstable or not, it is more cost effective for the oil companies to import from those countries rather than initiate those leases they have already been granted. "Drill Baby Drill" is a non-starter, and there are no incentives to the oil companies to keep oil taken from US soil and make it remain in the US. Or, if, as you suggest, the existing refineries use domestic oil instead of foreign oil to provide us gasoline, why would they lower the price below what it is now? And these companies DO NOT CARE if it costs you more to fill your tank as long as they are making record profits and keeping their shareholders happy.

The only way to combat the high cost of oil is to get off oil all together.
I would rather the US start funding more research along the lines of what is talked about in this article:
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/researchers-develop-more-powerful-biofuel-alt

Then, we would not have to destroy our own environment to extract a resource that is going to eventually disappear.

Yes I did. And it was an editorial piece. If I only read that article and those of a similar ilk, I might agree with you.

And if you bothered to look into the matter, the reason that the cost of oil is so high is due to speculation based on instability in the Middle East. If there are other sources for oil production that are in more stable areas of the world, then the speculators will look elsewhere to invest their money. It has very little to do with supply and demand.

ETA: I'm all in favor of exploring alternative energy sources. I just think that the private sector should be funding their own research instead of the federal government just as I believe that the oil companies should shoulder the cost of their experimentations.

 

[moburg]

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/03...ing-21290.html

Who is "we"? If "we" drill in ANWR, how do we get the oil to the US? The pipeline doesn't have the capacity, and getting enough tankers up to the ports in Alaska is cost-prohibitive.

Who pays for the cost of building the refineries ? Where do "we" put them? Refineries are dirty, smelly, noisy operations, so now we get into the NIMBY arguments.

Who funds the infrastructure to get the oil to the refineries and to get the refined product to market?

Oil companies have drilling leases that they are not using. How do "we" go about making them use those leases? They are making record profits as it is. What makes it worth their while to sink the billions of dollars into the cost of drilling when they have a duty to their shareholders to maximize profits while keeping costs down? What guarantee is there that any oil taken from the ground in the US STAYS in the US?

"WE" as in the US Oil companies. They are making huge profits with their current operations, why do you think they won't make huge profits with the new drilling operations as well. They will, which is why they would happily spend the money up front for the needed infrastructure. They will more than make it back.

And the oil leases they own but aren't drilling, for the most part, are either cost prohibitive to drill, are there simply isn't enough oil in those areas to make it worth while. So, should they be forced to drill there anyway??

The same refineries that are refining foreign oil can handle domestic oil. You were aware that it comes to the U.S. as crude aren't you?

Those same tankers that go to Brazil can go to Alaska instead.

No need for extra funding of the infrastructure. We use what we have in place instead. The only difference is where the crude comes from.

And by opening up drilling for oil in our own land and off our own shores, we reduce the threat of an unstable Middle Eastern government shutting down oil production in order to hold us "hostage" to their whims.

ETA: Regarding existing leases...not every piece of leased land has sufficient amounts of natural gas or oil to make it affordable to explore. They sit on that land in the hopes that either methods of obtaining those resources improve to the point where it is affordable or else the price of those commodities reaches a point where it is worth going after them. So instead of allowing them to drill where there are large pockets of easily accessible oil, many will point to those leases that are already held by the oil companies and say "drill there first". It makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, that is mostly true. We do import some refined gasoline because our refining capacity has decreased over the years. The US had 301 refineries in 1982 producing 17.9 million barrels a day. Today there are only 149 refineries, but they produce 17.4 million barrels. So each refinery is more productive, but overall they fall short of even 1982 levels and short of US daily demands. Some companies are trying to build more refineries but are being blocked or endlessly delayed by regulations.

 

[brerrabbit]

bingo! instead of paying brazil 2 billion dollars to develop their oil sources, how about we use that money to develop our own, so we don't have to be dependent on other countries?

This is just America's payoff of Brazil because in order to subsidize our corn farmers by giving 45 cents a gallon tax credits for the use of ethanol we charge Brazil a 54 cents a gallon tariff on any ethanol they try to export to the US. They are a lot more efficient producing ethanol than we are and if we let it into the US, we would have to double the corn ethanol credit.

 

[moburg]

This is just America's payoff of Brazil because in order to subsidize our corn farmers by giving 45 cents a gallon tax credits for the use of ethanol we charge Brazil a 54 cents a gallon tariff on any ethanol they try to export to the US. They are a lot more efficient producing ethanol than we are and if we let it into the US, we would have to double the corn ethanol credit.

Brazil makes ethanol from sugar, something like 8 times more efficient than from corn. Meanwhile we subsidize the corn ethanol to make it profitable for the growers, so they plant corn for ethanol instead of other crops (corn, wheat, etc) for actual food. So the price of our food rises as well.

 

[Muushka]

Yes I did. And it was an editorial piece. If I only read that article and those of a similar ilk, I might agree with you.

And if you bothered to look into the matter, the reason that the cost of oil is so high is due to speculation based on instability in the Middle East. If there are other sources for oil production that are in more stable areas of the world, then the speculators will look elsewhere to invest their money. It has very little to do with supply and demand.

ETA: I'm all in favor of exploring alternative energy sources. I just think that the private sector should be funding their own research instead of the federal government just as I believe that the oil companies should shoulder the cost of their experimentations.

Amen and amen. If the alternative energy is worthwhile, the private sector will develop it. Wind and solar is not worthwhile (although it may be some day). Neither is ethanol. Yet we sink millions of dollars into these losers.

 

[cbeehler3]

I am not going to even quote some of the ridiculous things written here.

I will say that I have had my EXPEDITION forever. I have four children. FOUR.
Only a minivan would suffice. (can't afford that) Not a hybrid tiny car. Where would I put them? On the roof?
Add into that that my husband was out of work for months and when we had lost our home and he finally was reemployed it was at a 1/3 paycut. OK. So now I am putting the regular priced gas in my monster vehicle to drive 3 of my four children to school and back every morning. Our old home had the bus stop in my drive. Now I have to drive them. So, it isn't because it is spring that I am driving more. And yes. For whatever reason..our gas amount has almost doubled. Probably due to the 3.99 price tag and 15 EXTRA miles a day in driving.
Actually..my bad...our gas has almost tripled. Just sayin'.

 

[Colleen27]

Who is keeping oil prices artificially low? We pay what the market will bear in this country, right?

Yes, but when gas prices got this high before there were several bills in Congress aimed at doing just that and I expect we'll see some of the same as we head into this summer. We're already hearing the cries fro government to "do something" but most of the somethings that get discussed are a band-aid on a bullet wound - releasing reserves, "tax holidays", etc.

Oops, you are right. You mentioned the environment and I jumped to conclusions!

But speaking of ecosystems and oil spills, other countries are drilling in the Gulf area. They could easily have a spill and the ecosystem could be affected. I think that the USA would be more careful than other countries (countries (Brazil for example) that we actually loaned 2 billion dollars to to drill oil ).

Can you tell I believe that we need to drill for our own oil?

I think we need to get out of the way and let the market sort it out, but I don't think that's going to mean much more energy independence than we have now. The remaining oil in North America is very difficult to extract and I suspect if govt truly got out of the way - meaning a streamlined process for drilling approval but no subsidies for exploration or development - we'd see precious little activity in those hotly debated areas.

Somewhere I read something about Cuba experimenting with a slanted drilling method to try to tap into the same reserves that Deepwater Horizon was after. That's scary - a third-rate developing nation playing around with experimental technology in an area that a global oil giant couldn't navigate safety.

There are two main reasons for the high MPG of the Prius and other similar hybrids, low weight of the car and aerodynamics. Neither of those work in the favor of minivans or SUV's. Even the Camry hybrid only increased MPG from 32 to 35 (or something close to that). Not that big a deal and not worth the premium. I remember reading a few years ago about some SUV hybrids increasing from 19 to 20 or 21 or something like that. Useless and a complete waste considering the cost premium of the hybrid.

Actually the hybrid minivan Toyota sells overseas gets about 35mpg, which is 10+mpg better than any domestic minivan. There have been a ton of delays in bringing it here, though, and with the Prius "minivan" concept from this year's auto shows I have to wonder if they've abandoned bringing the full sized minivan to the American market at all.

The Ford Escape SUV goes from 23/28 gas to 34/31 hybrid. Not a huge improvement, but significant especially if you do mostly city driving. However, that's still a 5 seater and the batteries eat up a lot of the Escape's already limited cargo space, so it doesn't address the lack of hybrid/high efficiency options for larger families.

 

[Muushka]

U.S. Gov't Agency Plans $2.84 Billion Loan for Oil Refinery—In Colombia

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/feds-plan-284-billion-loan-oil-refinery

The U.S. Export-Import Bank, an independent agency of the federal government, is now planning a $2.84-billion loan for a massive project to expand and upgrade an oil refinery--in Cartagena, Colombia.

Oh yeah. I love reading this stuff.

 

[Muushka]

Yes, but when gas prices got this high before there were several bills in Congress aimed at doing just that and I expect we'll see some of the same as we head into this summer. We're already hearing the cries fro government to "do something" but most of the somethings that get discussed are a band-aid on a bullet wound - releasing reserves, "tax holidays", etc.



I think we need to get out of the way and let the market sort it out, but I don't think that's going to mean much more energy independence than we have now. The remaining oil in North America is very difficult to extract and I suspect if govt truly got out of the way - meaning a streamlined process for drilling approval but no subsidies for exploration or development - we'd see precious little activity in those hotly debated areas.

Somewhere I read something about Cuba experimenting with a slanted drilling method to try to tap into the same reserves that Deepwater Horizon was after. That's scary - a third-rate developing nation playing around with experimental technology in an area that a global oil giant couldn't navigate safety.



Actually the hybrid minivan Toyota sells overseas gets about 35mpg, which is 10+mpg better than any domestic minivan. There have been a ton of delays in bringing it here, though, and with the Prius "minivan" concept from this year's auto shows I have to wonder if they've abandoned bringing the full sized minivan to the American market at all.

The Ford Escape SUV goes from 23/28 gas to 34/31 hybrid. Not a huge improvement, but significant especially if you do mostly city driving. However, that's still a 5 seater and the batteries eat up a lot of the Escape's already limited cargo space, so it doesn't address the lack of hybrid/high efficiency options for larger families.

Coleen, I agree with most of what you said, except for that statement that our oil is difficult to extract. It is difficult because of the environmental restrictions that have been placed on drilling.

And you are right, the thought of Cuba experimenting is scary!

 

[Colleen27]

This is just America's payoff of Brazil because in order to subsidize our corn farmers by giving 45 cents a gallon tax credits for the use of ethanol we charge Brazil a 54 cents a gallon tariff on any ethanol they try to export to the US. They are a lot more efficient producing ethanol than we are and if we let it into the US, we would have to double the corn ethanol credit.

We also impose tariffs on sugar, which along with our corn subsidies have led to the shift to high fructose corn syrup as the more popular/cheaper sweetener. We have a number of subsidy programs in place that are essentially "payback" for the economic ripple effects of our agricultural subsidies, and some of them work better than others - Brazil's repurposing of cane sugar to ethanol, for example, is preferable to Mexico's shift from planting cane sugar to more profitable illegal drug crops.

 

[Purseval]

Why is it that the people who post about Exxon's obscene profits never mention their taxes, which are more than their profits and average around 27 billion dollars a year? That 27 billion is more than the bottom 50% of taxpayers pay all together. It sounds like the really obscene profiteer is government, at least Exxon works for their money.