Taking your children for holidays during school is illegal in the UK

[TLSnell1981]

And yes, public schools rely on attendance to receive state funding. .

Someone finally answered my question. What is the main objective...education or attendance. The system needs butts in a chair, so I guess attendance (money) is more important. Sadly, I already knew the answer.

 

[sam_gordon]

As for my first scenario no its not the same as a vacation yet it still was an issue that would have been a HUGE problem at school because there way of working with me may have been to allow me an incomplete but at a company was no problem at all. It is completely ridiculous that schools have this much power.

At YOUR company it was "no problem at all". That doesn't mean every company would be so forgiving. It's the same at schools. Some would allow it, some wouldn't.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The fact that, when my son was in cyber school, we only needed a three day school week, 4 hours or less per day, to cover all the lessons and do all the work and tests, says to me that public school is mostly busy work.

You were teaching one student. The school is teaching 20, 30, or more, with different learning capabilities.

Why is it okay for band, choir and orchestra to take school time off to compete in a competition but it's not okay for my parents to pull me out a few days early before Thanksgiving (we just got Wednesday- Friday off) to take us to Europe?

Maybe the school is prepared for multiple students to be away those specific days and can adjust lesson plans and assignments, vs many, many individuals all out different days with different expectations?

I guarantee we learned a lot more visiting Versailles and the Louvre than the music students did partying on the beach.

How much math, English, science, American history, and whatever else was being taught in the scholarship while they were in Europe?

I really feel like this is truly a to each their own issue. I don't understand why it's another parent's concern whether I take my child out.

It's the concern of the Board of Education. Individual parents aren't setting these requirements.

It's funny everyone thinks the rules (in the US) are about education, when in reality they are 100% about funding. Schools get money for every kid in school each day. That's the ONLY reason the rules exist.

Money which is spent to provide education.

 

[Rhombus]

I also don't have kids but even as a student I found all of those "You must be in class or you will fail" to be stupid. I had one of these in college where they would make you fail if you missed more then 3 classes of calculus no matter what your grades on the tests were. That is insane. If I know the material and pass I should pass the class.

.

Professor's house, professor's rules.

So did you follow his/her rules, or play hooky more than 3 times and fail the class?

 

[soccerdad72]

Someone finally answered my question. What is the main objective...education or attendance. The system needs butts in a chair, so I guess attendance (money) is more important. Sadly, I already knew the answer.

It's a Catch-22. Schools can't provide a quality education without funding and they don't get the proper funding without attendance.

 

[TLSnell1981]

It's a Catch-22. Schools can't provide a quality education without funding and they don't get the proper funding without attendance.

Yes, but some kids miss 30 days a year...3 at a time and it's perfectly legal. 5 days for a vacation isn't allowed. Ridiculous!

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Yes, but some kids miss 30 days a year...3 at a time and it's perfectly legal. 5 days for a vacation isn't allowed. Ridiculous!

I don't believe that to be common at all. Most schools would have a MUCH bigger issue with 30 total days missed than 5 in a row.

As for WHY funding is doled out based on attendance, the fact remains that on the whole, kids who have good attendance score better than those who do not.

 

[Colleen27]

It's funny everyone thinks the rules (in the US) are about education, when in reality they are 100% about funding. Schools get money for every kid in school each day. That's the ONLY reason the rules exist.

Funding formulas vary by state so this simply isn't true everywhere. My state uses fixed "count days" rather than daily attendance figures (which leads to absurdity of its own - last year kids in Detroit schools got free tickets to a monster truck rally just for showing up to be counted). So funding doesn't directly drive strict attendance policies. However, average attendance is a metric used to measure schools' annual progress under NCLB and unless this has changed (it might have - with our public school years coming to an end I don't pay as much attention to policy as I used to) the expectation was that the overall number will improve every year until it hits perfect attendance school-wide, which we all know is an impossible goal.

 

[gwynne]

It's a Catch-22. Schools can't provide a quality education without funding and they don't get the proper funding without attendance.

And sometimes it's just an ugly money game. Back in the day I completed 9th grade in another state. Move to Texas, and my mother made the mistake of dropping off my school records 3 weeks before school let out in Texas. Texas demanded (with threats of truancy consequences) I attend class every day for the next three weeks, even though my grades were complete. I sat and read in the back of the class per the teachers instructions.

 

[Colleen27]

Income is no indication of behavior. Alcoholics come in all classes. Single parents span income levels. Married parents aren't necessarily loving parents. Taking one's family to Hawaii on vacation doesn't make one a better or worse, or more or less, caring or loving parent.

Crap, I had a whole long response to this typed out and it went poof.

I thought it was obvious that I was generalizing. Of course the unstable alcoholic who can't get her kids to school reliably could be middle class, and the loving single parent wanting to take her kids on vacation could be low income. But the point remains - much of the evidence of a connection between attendance and achievement comes from studying the causes of the racial and economic achievement gap in this country. When our local school board was debating a stricter attendance policy, the study they referenced focused heavily on attendance and performance within the Detroit Public School system compared to suburban systems with better attendance. I dare say the challenges and attendance patterns of DPS have very little relevance for a middle class rural school system like ours, which has an overall 97%+ attendance rate even with a permissive policy on family vacations.

More broadly, I think strict, punitive attendance policies miss the point. They attempt to "cure" a symptom that arises at the intersection of several broad social problems without ever addressing the root causes of chronic absenteeism, and have real potential to make those causes worse by heaping fines and criminal penalties onto families that already lack the resources and support to help their children succeed, not to mention imposing all of the negative outcomes associated with grade retention without regard to academic performance. Meanwhile, they punish successful children from functional families who have limitations on their ability to arrange vacations around school breaks.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I don't believe that to be common at all. Most schools would have a MUCH bigger issue with 30 total days missed than 5 in a row.

As for WHY funding is doled out based on attendance, the fact remains that on the whole, kids who have good attendance score better than those who do not.

It may not be common, but it's true. Kids can't take 5 days for vacation, no exceptions (even with straight As and perfect attendance). 3 days at a time with a parent's note is legal. I was STUNNED to hear the number of days, that some have missed.

 

[sam_gordon]

Take this with a grain of salt, because I don't know if it's true or not...

Yesterday was the first day of school for my kids (ok, that part is true). According to older DD (a HS Senior), her school is over enrolled. Because of that, anyone who was not present yesterday had their schedules torn up and they were unenrolled.

Again, I don't know if this is true or not. But, if so, it's another example of being willing to accept the consequences of your action (keeping kids out of school).

 

[NHdisneylover]

When we moved to Germany we were told that we could be fined up to 180 euro per child per day of we took them out of school to travel. Fortunately we were bale to get approval for the family reunion trip that had been booked before we even knew we were moving, but it was quite a process, and had we not been able to show that multiple people form our extended family booked and paid back when we still lived in the US, I am not sure we would have been approved.

DS16 now attends a semi private school with a very international student base--they are pretty reasonable abut approving a week every couple of years, knowing that extended family in other countries often has vacation at very different times--and the school recognizes the importance of those family bonds thank goodness. (DS'S summer break started July 29-by the time we get to the Colorado with flights there is very little overlap with his cousins summer before they head back--and for some of his friends they have no overlap with cousins in other countries).

 

[ashley0139]

Take this with a grain of salt, because I don't know if it's true or not...

Yesterday was the first day of school for my kids (ok, that part is true). According to older DD (a HS Senior), her school is over enrolled. Because of that, anyone who was not present yesterday had their schedules torn up and they were unenrolled.

Again, I don't know if this is true or not. But, if so, it's another example of being willing to accept the consequences of your action (keeping kids out of school).

They can't do that.

 

[Hrhpd]

If the parents let the teacher know ahead of time and work out the homework issue (either get it done early, or have a certain amount of time to turn it in after the kids return to school) I see no problem with parents taking their kids out of school for vacation.

Our school doesn't say you can't take your children out. But the district makes it exceedingly difficult, especially for older children.

Families are not allowed to ask teacher for the work that is going to be done while gone. Teachers are not allowed to put together homework packets or issue any makeup work.

There is no makeup work allowed. All homework that was supposed to be turned in while gone, automatic 0. Any tests that might have been missed, absolutely no makeups allowed, automatic 0.

Most high school teachers schedule tests for the day before a big vacation, so there is no leaving a day early.

Any high school student concerned about their GPA for college could not afford to take a week off and accumulate 0's.

I agree with the policy. It is a parent's right to do what they want with their children, but there are consequences. If they want to travel during the school year, fine. But it is unfair to ask a teacher to do extra work by putting together packets and designing makeup tests for a parent's personal choice.

There are provisions for excused absences. At the 3rd day of absence for an illness, a dr's note is required or the absences change over to unexcused and no makeup work allowed. Other excused absences, for instance for a death in the family, the # of days excused are negotiated case by case.

Frankly in the US the schools really care that we are there because of the money they lose every day a student is absent. It has nothing to do with the quality of education anyway.

Not all schools. Our district only has two days in October that are "count" days. Funding is based on the attendance for those couple of days. Every other day, how many students are absent does not affect funding at all.

It's funny everyone thinks the rules (in the US) are about education, when in reality they are 100% about funding. Schools get money for every kid in school each day. That's the ONLY reason the rules exist.

Again, no it is not. Many states like ours only have a few specific count days on a specific week. Any other day's absenteeism rate does not affect funding at all.

 

[bethy]

It may not be common, but it's true. Kids can't take 5 days for vacation, no exceptions (even with straight As and perfect attendance). 3 days at a time with a parent's note is legal. I was STUNNED to hear the number of days, that some have missed.

My oldest missed 26 days of fifth grade due to a combination of fairly serious health issues and family travel. No nasty grams were received. She still did great academically. I'm actually homeschooling her now due to the health issues, although I am not her only teacher. She has skipped a year - something that would not have been possible at her old school.

My middle child will miss 2 weeks of fifth grade this October for family travel. We have a new, young, idealistic and rigid principal this time around. I am curious to see if she challenges us. I'm optimistic but also have a couple of back up plans in place should I need them. I'm planning to take the high road even if it kills me.

 

[Hrhpd]

Really, where's the problem, if the student completes the work and turns it in before their vacation or upon return? Is it too much trouble for the teacher? What is the main objective...education or attendance?

It is more work for the teacher, especially tests. If a student needs to make up a test, a whole new test has to be devised. Because in this day and age of technology, especially with the older students, somebody has managed to take a picture of the test and post it online. It would be an unfair advantage for the student to be on vacation and then take a test they have already seen online somewhere.

There were also plenty of competitive parents (I am talking older students again,) whose children are vying for that top 5%, complaining that it was unfair for students on vacation to have an extra week to study for a test, or to do homework or a project.

 

[bethy]

Our school doesn't say you can't take your children out. But the district makes it exceedingly difficult, especially for older children.

Families are not allowed to ask teacher for the work that is going to be done while gone. Teachers are not allowed to put together homework packets or issue any makeup work.

There is no makeup work allowed. All homework that was supposed to be turned in while gone, automatic 0. Any tests that might have been missed, absolutely no makeups allowed, automatic 0.

Most high school teachers schedule tests for the day before a big vacation, so there is no leaving a day early.

Any high school student concerned about their GPA for college could not afford to take a week off and accumulate 0's.

I agree with the policy. It is a parent's right to do what they want with their children, but there are consequences. If they want to travel during the school year, fine. But it is unfair to ask a teacher to do extra work by putting together packets and designing makeup tests for a parent's personal choice.

There are provisions for excused absences. At the 3rd day of absence for an illness, a dr's note is required or the absences change over to unexcused and no makeup work allowed. Other excused absences, for instance for a death in the family, the # of days excused are negotiated case by case.

Not all schools. Our district only has two days in October that are "count" days. Funding is based on the attendance for those couple of days. Every other day, how many students are absent does not affect funding at all.

I actually don't have a problem with this. I take my children out every year but I doubt I will in high school due to the GPA issue. I most especially have never wanted my taking kids out of school to cause extra work for the teachers. I am very pro-teacher.

 

[TLSnell1981]

It is more work for the teacher, especially tests. If a student needs to make up a test, a whole new test has to be devised. Because in this day and age of technology, especially with the older students, somebody has managed to take a picture of the test and post it online. It would be an unfair advantage for the student to be on vacation and then take a test they have already seen online somewhere.

There were also plenty of competitive parents (I am talking older students again,) whose children are vying for that top 5%, complaining that it was unfair for students on vacation to have an extra week to study for a test, or to do homework or a project.

No difference, than if a child is out for any excused absence.

BTW..It's a shame, that every student is considered to be dishonest because a handful might cheat.

 

[Hrhpd]

And what about kids that get the flu and are sick for a week and miss school? Even in high school, kids can catch up on missed work and class time. I don't think that the reason they missed should matter.

For a child that is ill, many times they are well enough after a couple of days to do a little bit of homework. A parent is picking up that day's assignments, so not requiring extra work for the teacher, and is bringing the homework back to school when it is due. The so sick that you can't work for an entire week is not that common and a dr's note would already be in place. Most teachers I know are happy to do extra work for something that the student can't help, a serious illness that leaves them incapacitated for a week, but why should parents expect teachers to do extra work putting together homework packages for a parent's whim? A teacher should not be asked to teach a subject twice, a problem that has cropped up quite a bit, parents asking for Johnny to stay in for recess for a review of what was taught during the time they were gone.

I have no problem with parent's taking their children out for vacation. But there are consequences and the parents have to weigh the consequences.

Edited to add: The district my children went to is very, very strict as indicated by my posts. But they were not total monsters. If you could prove that this was the absolute only time you could possibly take a vacation, like military or you are at the bottom of a seniority thing, and that it was not because of cost or just convenience, then they would try to work with you. But it had become a problem that families were jetting off at all different times just because they felt like it and expected the teachers to bend over backwards to accomodate them.