Swine Flu vax does NOT mean you won't get sick

With so many deaths here in Florida from h1n1 it is nice that people that KNOW they have h1n1 go to places like wdw to spread the love around huh?I think it is HIGHLY selfish ...if you do not want to get you or your family the vaccine fine I do not care BUT do not go to wdw and spread it to others that want the vaccine and have not been able to get it (we got it) .:mad:
 
Getting the seasonal flu shot does not fully protect you from the seasonal flu strains either. Last year EVERY employee at work got the immunization. In February we had 9 employees test positive for the flu over a 10 day period.

The flu shot potects against only 1 strain of the influenza virus, so it is always a possibility that you can catch one of the strains that the vaccine doesn't protect against.
 
I thought this was very interesting and thought I'd share:

From Section 12.1 of the Novartis 2009 H1N1 package insert:
Mechanism of Action
"...antibody titers (after) vaccination with inactivated influenza H1N1 virus vaccine have not been correlated with protection from influenza illness. In some human studies, antibody titer of ≥1:40 have been associated with protection from influenza illness in up to 50% of subjects."

What this says, in plain language, is that having an H1N1 antibody after getting an H1N1 shot has no correlation with not getting sick. And that a sizable antibody titer (of 1:40 or greater) only protects UP TO 50% of people from getting the flu -- meaning that the vaccine is a 50:50 deal at best for keeping you from getting sick.

They have never said any vaccine would protect a person 100%. You can still get the illness. The advantage to the vaccine is that your body has seen it before and made some antibodies. This recognition and the antibodies help you to fight the flu faster and it will last for a shorter duration with weaker symptoms. For some this could be the difference between life and death.
 
The flu shot potects against only 1 strain of the influenza virus, so it is always a possibility that you can catch one of the strains that the vaccine doesn't protect against.
You're correct in that the shot doesn't protect against all the flue bugs you may encounter, but each seasonal flu vaccine offers protection against three strains. Here's this year's bugs:
* A/Brisbane/59/2007 (H1N1)-like virus
* A/Brisbane/10/2007 (H3N2)-like virus
* B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus
 

The flu shot potects against only 1 strain of the influenza virus, so it is always a possibility that you can catch one of the strains that the vaccine doesn't protect against.

They mix in their best guess at the stains, not just one, that they expect to be in the US.
 
The funny thing is if you read the drug inserts in all the medicine my DH is taking to prevent another heart attack- they also say they they do not prevent another HA. Simply legalese.
 
One small problem with that theory.... the live virus in the FluMist is "cold-adapted" such that it can't survive or replicate at human body temperatures beyond the cooler temperatures of the nose. While sneezing may transmit the virus to others, the virus is also effectively "doomed" when it reaches the 2nd person.

From my reading, it is not the complete virus but the outside shell. This is what you body will recognize and make antibodies for.
 
My son has asthma and I've been told he should not get the mist because it contains live virus, and that the rest of the family should not get the mist as well because we will be shedding live virus. We have bben advised to get the injectable.
 
You're correct in that the shot doesn't protect against all the flue bugs you may encounter, but each seasonal flu vaccine offers protection against three strains. Here's this year's bugs:
* A/Brisbane/59/2007 (H1N1)-like virus
* A/Brisbane/10/2007 (H3N2)-like virus
* B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus

They mix in their best guess at the stains, not just one, that they expect to be in the US.

Thanks for the info. I knew they tracked what strain will be the dominant one for the season, I didn't realize it was more than one. Still with the I'm guessing 100's (maybe 1000's :confused:) of strains there is always the possibilty of becoming infected even with the vaccine.



My son has asthma and I've been told he should not get the mist because it contains live virus, and that the rest of the family should not get the mist as well because we will be shedding live virus. We have bben advised to get the injectable.


This is how it works for us as well, and it is stressed that everyone in the house should definitely be vaccinated, not just ds.
 
My son has asthma and I've been told he should not get the mist because it contains live virus, and that the rest of the family should not get the mist as well because we will be shedding live virus. We have bben advised to get the injectable.
Interesting, our older son was given the shot due to his asthma at the Pediatrician's, but our younger son was then given the mist right after him and we were cleared for it too. I believe the concern is the route of administration in the asthma suffer and the fear that the dose could trigger an attack... I don't believe that the concern extends to secondary contact with small quantities of the antigen. The package insert doesn't saw that the mist is contraindicated for families with asthma sufferers, only those with asthma themselves.

It's also worth noting that there's no known problems with FluMist and asthmatics, only that it hasn't been tested to find out IF there's a problem so they recommend erroring in the direction of caution until safety studies are done on the issue.
 
The package insert has to say that because you can't measure a vaccines ability to protect against the disease unless you are actually willing to intentionally infect people just to see who doesn't get it. The best they can do is look at antibody titers and then after the fact attempt to see who actually got sick, who got severely ill and who only had mild illness.

As for the FluMist and people with asthma/diabetes/over age 50, etc...there will probably never be any testing done for the mist for these populations. These "high risk" people cannot be part of a "double-blind" study where some get the vaccine and some only get saline because it would be unethical to withhold a recommended vaccine from them.

Many doctors continue to recommend the flu shot for household contacts of these high risk people, and this is not needed. It is far easier to just give them a shot than try to convince them to go against what their doctor says. If they only have access to the mist, however, you can "reason" some people into getting it.

I really should stop opening these flu threads:)
 
Getting the seasonal flu shot does not fully protect you from the seasonal flu strains either. Last year EVERY employee at work got the immunization. In February we had 9 employees test positive for the flu over a 10 day period.

This is of course true. When they make a flu serum, it is for the strains that are currently out there and by the time the serum is released to the public we have other new strains out there. But as previously stated, it does help with many strains. I work in health care also and continue to receive my flu vaccination every year and every year I get the flu. The one year that I did not get my flu vaccination, I was sick five times over the course of the sick-season. Do not want that to happen again, so I will vaccinate.

Have heard and read that many people have probably had a form of the H1N1 already and just thought it was a cold or flu. The best preventative measures are common sense....stay away from others when you are contagious, wash your hands excessively and use germ-killers, keep your children home from school, stay home from work and other obvious measures when sneezing and coughing.

Hope everyone stays well and healthy this season.
 
The funny thing is if you read the drug inserts in all the medicine my DH is taking to prevent another heart attack- they also say they they do not prevent another HA. Simply legalese.

SORRY OFF TOPIC HERE

M&M's mom, just had to say, love your M&M. I have a Snickers chocolate labby.
 
I thought this was very interesting and thought I'd share:

From Section 12.1 of the Novartis 2009 H1N1 package insert:
Mechanism of Action
"...antibody titers (after) vaccination with inactivated influenza H1N1 virus vaccine have not been correlated with protection from influenza illness. In some human studies, antibody titer of ≥1:40 have been associated with protection from influenza illness in up to 50% of subjects."

What this says, in plain language, is that having an H1N1 antibody after getting an H1N1 shot has no correlation with not getting sick. And that a sizable antibody titer (of 1:40 or greater) only protects UP TO 50% of people from getting the flu -- meaning that the vaccine is a 50:50 deal at best for keeping you from getting sick.

To the OP it's great you are reading the insert but unfortunately your interpretation of the data has some false assumptions. Statistics is a subject that can be widely interpreted when only partial information is given. It is a large insert so there are further tables and such that I won't quote here but I'll explain some of these concepts.

First what is an Antibody titer. Basically it is a dilution so you number your first tube 1:1. Dilute that in half and then if you can still detect Antibody then you have a 1:2 titer. You keep going until you hit a dilution where you no longer detect antibody.

Here is an analogy, not exact. I give you a dole whip which lets say is real potent. Then I dilute it with half ice no additional flavoring. We are now a 1:2 Dole Whip, but I can still taste it. I do this again with another half ice. Now we are at 1:4 but because its really tasty I can still taste the Dole Whip. I continue on until sadly and after a quick cry I can't taste the Dole Whip.

Now this is very important, the insert states that "In some human studies, antibody titer of ≥1:40 have been associated with protection from influenza illness in up to 50% of subjects." It does NOT state that "a sizable antibody titer (of 1:40 or greater) only protects UP TO 50% of people from getting the flu." I am not sure where the "sizeable" adjective comes from, that's not really objective and concerning antibody titers doesn't describe any sort of adequacy from an immunological standpoint. Also the term greater needs to be used with caution because one has to remember you are dealing with the reciprocal of a number.

The insert statement means exactly what it says and if you read further in the insert it shows a trend that uses 1:40 as a data point for seroconversion. Seroconversion means the development of detectable antibodies after immunization or exposure, in this case the H1N1 vaccine. For example in this case they found that some people with a titer of 1:40 have 50% protection (let's call it immunity from now on). You can't look at this as some 2-D entity one plane. There are some people that have immunity with a more dilute titer and some with a less dilute.

I'll use another example of this concept, not an exact analogy just for the concept. For most people the grading system in a class A B C D F (A being the highest grade and F being a fail). And lets say there is a bell curve as well. Midway through the semester I show your report card to the class and it is a C and I say everyone that has a C has a 50% chance of passing this class and a 50% chance of failure. While this maybe true at this point there is more data to the question. People with a higher grade (A and B) have a higher chance of passing. People with equivalent grades (C) are in the same boat. People with a lower grade (D) have a higher rate of failure but remember if they keep a D they still pass. So using C as a middle point of the curve there is a passing grade on both sides (ABCD)

Hypothetically if the company had chosen something like 1:100 as the titer and then told you that 90% of people have immunity at this level. This doesn't mean that 90% of people have protection. It sounds great, but there is not enough information in the initial statement. It doesn't tell you how many people have this level of titer (what if it is just one person), it doesn't tell you what population you are looking at, it doesn't give you any time frame, etc. That's the power of statistical analysis, it's all about what information you have and how you interpret the data.

If you read the whole insert there is a good amount of data there. I mean they even break it up into pediatric and geriatric populations. There is much more in-depth review that cold be had of the information so I am not claiming to explain it all. Whether it is peer reviewed I am not sure I didn't do these studies and I am not an Infectious Disease physician, I am just a quick look at this data. My point is that the company has no interest in making an overly long insert. They put exactly what they found data wise into it, there is very little interpretation there. Unfortunately they don't make things more clear in the insert but legally they don't have to, they only need to give the pertinent information. So it is difficult to make a global assumption that the vaccine is a 50:50 deal.

As a PP said as well, vaccines do not necessarily prevent all incidence of disease, while that is the goal often immunizations temper the outbreaks of disease and at least attempt to give a population an advantage against a possible outbreak. The most successful vaccine ever was the smallpox vaccine and I think that is the only case with 100% eradication.

Glad someone already pointed out that H1N1 is NOT the same flu being prevented by the flu mist.

Sorry for the long post but hopefully it makes some things clear.
 
Interesting, our older son was given the shot due to his asthma at the Pediatrician's, but our younger son was then given the mist right after him and we were cleared for it too. I believe the concern is the route of administration in the asthma suffer and the fear that the dose could trigger an attack... I don't believe that the concern extends to secondary contact with small quantities of the antigen. The package insert doesn't saw that the mist is contraindicated for families with asthma sufferers, only those with asthma themselves.

It's also worth noting that there's no known problems with FluMist and asthmatics, only that it hasn't been tested to find out IF there's a problem so they recommend erroring in the direction of caution until safety studies are done on the issue.

Geoff, thanks for all the information you've posted on the thread.
 
That makes perfect sense since you're sopposed to avoid people that are in protective isolation due to being severly immunocompromized...like can be found in hospitals.

We have the same rule in our hospital -- and it's regardless of patient care, or even if you work in a building that HAS patients. They do NOT want people shedding virus from the mist, period.
 
I thought this was very interesting and thought I'd share:

From Section 12.1 of the Novartis 2009 H1N1 package insert:
Mechanism of Action
"...antibody titers (after) vaccination with inactivated influenza H1N1 virus vaccine have not been correlated with protection from influenza illness. In some human studies, antibody titer of ≥1:40 have been associated with protection from influenza illness in up to 50% of subjects."

What this says, in plain language, is that having an H1N1 antibody after getting an H1N1 shot has no correlation with not getting sick. And that a sizable antibody titer (of 1:40 or greater) only protects UP TO 50% of people from getting the flu -- meaning that the vaccine is a 50:50 deal at best for keeping you from getting sick.

"Assuming" this information is accurate, I tend to look at it this way..

Get the vaccine and you have a 50% chance of not becoming ill/seriously ill/ and or dying..

Don't get the vaccine and your odds are much, much higher of becoming ill/seriously ill/ and or dying - since this flu is currently a widespread epidemic..

I would prefer to go with the 50/50 odds of having the vaccine - if I could find it..
 
"Assuming" this information is accurate, I tend to look at it this way..

Get the vaccine and you have a 50% chance of not becoming ill/seriously ill/ and or dying..

Don't get the vaccine and your odds are much, much higher of becoming ill/seriously ill/ and or dying - since this flu is currently a widespread epidemic..

I would prefer to go with the 50/50 odds of having the vaccine - if I could find it..

C. Ann, I agree.

I am so frustrated right now I feel like chewing nails because our state (surprise, surprise) which is either last or first (depending on the scenario) has not yet received their allotment of H1N1 vaccine.
 



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