Swine Flu vax does NOT mean you won't get sick

[livie1205]

Its funny how soooo many people say "oh no way I am not getting that vaccine" yet now peole are running around like crazy trying to get it!we got the h1n1 mist a few weeks ago and my dd3 goes for her 2nd dose in 9 days,its fine if people choose not to go maybe I wont have a issue finding it for her! I plan to drive to another county if mine runs out but so far they have enough.

 

[snickerboo]

Geoff M....where do you get your information? I appreciate your rational approach to this issue.

 

[leahjade]

Amazing how many people in this country seem to get their health advise from celebrities such as Jenny McCarthy and Suzanne Somers - it's scary! Since health authorities say more than 1,000 people in the United States, including almost 100 children, have died from the strain of flu known as H1N1, and 46 states have widespread flu activity, I'll definitely be vaccinating my children.

I agree, the news media is generally a terrible place to get medical news. They love a good medical "scare" story and have done much to keep vaccine "controversies" in the fore.

Well, said - selling papers and high tv ratings is a motive to keep everyone scared. Do your own research and use your own common sense -don't believe everything some pseudo-expert is peddling.

 

[Geoff_M]

Or they take a proactive, NATURAL, preventative approach through proper nutrition (ie: not Lunchables) and plenty of hand washing.

More info on VAX:

http://drtenpenny.com/the_truth_about_the_flu_Shot.aspx

Mefordis, if you're going to keep posting these links, could you at least find some that don't contain debunked myths about vaccines... I mean honestly!

From "Dr. Tenpenny's" link called (ironically) "The Truth about the Flu Shot":

What about the new Swine Flu shot?

Some of the new H1N1 (swine flu) vaccines are going to be made by Novartis. These shots will probably be made in PER.C6 cells (human retina cells) and contain MF59, a potentially debilitating adjuvant. MF-59 is an oil-based adjuvant primarily composed of squalene.

*All rats injected with squalene (oil) adjuvants developed a disease that left them crippled, dragging their paralyzed hindquarters across their cages.

Here's the real "truth" from The US Dept. of Health and Human Service's Flu Myths and Realities website:

Myth: “The H1N1 vaccine includes adjuvants, such as squalene.”

Reality: None of the H1N1 vaccines currently distributed by the U.S. government contain adjuvants.

I'm also calling "BS" on the "made in human retina cells" comment that's designed to make you go "oh, ick!!!" For starters, the actual virus that is in the H1N1 flu vaccines is grown in chicken eggs, not vats of human eye tissue. If anything, the commercially available PER.C6 cell line may have been used to develop the original virus "master-seed" used in the vaccine. The entire PER.C6 cell line was created from a single cell taken from an eye originally in the 1990's, as this video shows, from the company that developed and sells PER.C6, labs around the world use it in research for many things such as vaccines for AIDS, Ebola, West Nile, etc.

But I guess I gotta give "Dr. Tenpenny" some credit, she hasn't stretched this whopper as far as some. I've seen others claim that the H1N1 vaccine is grown using the eye balls of aborted babies!!!

 

[Geoff_M]

It is all so confusing!

You're right... it is pretty confusing. The anti-vaccine crowd wants it that way. They know that's the only real hope they have of keeping their efforts going and to try and influence parents. A blogger I read summarized it this way in reaction to the latest small "smoking gun" study that the anti-vaxxers are all a-twitter over:

The anti-vaccine community is tireless. As I wrote yesterday, they happily shift around their multiple goalposts as long as they have some working hypothesis about how vaccines are to blame for autism or some human suffering. They have moved from MMR to thimerosal to aluminum to “toxins” to squalene and now the HepB vaccine. They just spin the wheel and choose their next target – although they never really abandon their prior targets, they just back burner them a bit.

They also have their small dedicated group of researchers, like the father and son team of Geier and Geier, to produce crappy studies to support their anti-vaccine claims. Andrew Wakefield, who has been rightly vilified for starting the MMR scare with his now discredited Lancet study, has also apparently decided to make a career out of feeding bad studies to the anti-vaccinationists.

I acknowledge there is a certain symmetry to the situation now. The scientific community presents studies that show a lack of correlation between some aspect of vaccines and autism or other neurological disorders. They generally accept these studies as supporting vaccine safety, even while being open about their limitations. They also sharply criticize those studies that suggest there may be a connection between vaccines and autism as fatally flawed.

Meanwhile, the anti-vaccine community rejects and dismisses all studies that show vaccine safety, while uncritically accepting any study that can be used to argue for vaccine toxicity. To the outside observer this can all seem like a he-said, she-said situation. And of course, that’s the point. To create the public appearance of a legitimate controversy, knowing that much of the public will take the position that they think is erring on the side of caution (really fear). Fear is easier to promote than reason.

The same thing happened with regard to tobacco and lung cancer (although in the other direction) – while the science was showing a link, the tobacco industry did everything they could to cast doubt on these conclusions, hoping to muddy the waters and confuse the public.

You see, the more doubt and confusion that can be sown so that the impression is given to parents that the issue of vaccine safety is more along the lines of a 50/50 proposition, the better in the eyes of the anti-vaccine movement.

 

[mrssmee]

In his interview, Dr. Oz said that it is his wife that is choosing not to get their children vaccinated.

I'd imagine it would be easy to decide not to vaccinate your kids when you probably have instant access to Tamiflu like Dr. Oz most likely has. A luxury the rest of us do not have!

I'd be willing to bet at this very minute Dr. Oz has enough Tamiflu in his house for his entire family if they need it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[Geoff_M]

Geoff M....where do you get your information? I appreciate your rational approach to this issue.

Thanks... Part of my knowledge comes from the fact that, as one of my critics points out, I work in "Big Pharma". Another reason is that I find the whole "anti-vaccination" movement to be rather fascinating and have studied it, read about it, and debated its members on occasion. I've always had an interest in this sort of human behavior. Before, Snopes made things a lot easier, I used to be an amateur buff in the area of studying Urban Legends. I was even cited in one of the books of the leading Urban Legend folklorist Prof. Jan Harold Brunvand (The Baby Train, 1993). I find that these two areas have a lot in common, though one of them carries a lot more in terms of consequences. The degree in which someone will cling to the notion, when debating, whether or not childhood vaccines contain tissue from aborted human fetuses is about the same as when I used to have long discussions with other people in the past about whether or not you could redeem soft drink can pull tabs to hospitals for kidney dialysis for children.

Some no doubt will discount what I say because of the industry I work for... but I find it odd that while I am accused of having a conflict of interest on this issue, the same standard isn't apparently applied when it comes to citing people on the other side of the issue who earn income from being a paid expert witness for trial lawyers, or selling books & DVDs, or selling tickets to seminars, or offering their alternative medical treatments for a fee, etc. etc.

 

[Namsupak]

So you were SORT of paying attention in your Psych 101 class? Very cute.

When the doctors won't give it to their own kids... well..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw

I suppose it is cute. Sorry I haven't had any psych 101 classes. I did pay enough attention in medical school to get my medical degree though. That's why I am clarifying your original post. It makes a broad statement that is a misinterpretation of the information. I won't quote the whole first post I made but it describes some statistical concepts I hope make sense to everyone. The intention is to let others know that if you are going to make a statement, or present something as fact, then you need to do so based on a good foundation of logic.

To address the youtube video you posted of this Doctor. I just want to point out to you that I find it odd the Doctor in the video is labeled as an infectious disease specialist. In my circle of specialists we have seen this gentleman's interviews before and he actually talks about hormone therapy in other interviews. This is the realm of endocrinology. However he is neither an infectious disease doctor nor is he an endocrinologist. I think we looked him up when we first saw him and I remember him being an Anesthesiologist. He also has Zero clinical studies published in his name so I am not sure he is an "expert" in either field. My training was all surgical so I am NOT stating that I am an expert in this field either. So since neither of us is an Infectious Disease specialist I would estimate that he and I have the same qualifications regarding this topic. I will also add that the infectious disease specialists I know do not agree with his view.

Additionally, I find it interesting that the host of this clip states he talked to three doctors about the vaccine and that 3/3 would vaccinate. If this doctor states he would not vaccinate, well thats still 3 votes for yes and 1 for no. Personally I chose to vaccinate my child. I'll give it to you though that he is older than I am so perhaps more knowledgeable, but I believe in academic medicine backed by studies and peer review. NOT simply opinions on a TV news program. From what I have heard about this doctor he has a clinic where he promotes his own hormone therapies, I have always found some conflict of interest in this type of practice. I don't prescribe vaccines to patients thats not in my scope of practice, however I am interested in my own child's welfare so I do keep updated in that respect.

Now he does mention a controversial topic autism and vaccines. I am not bringing that up to stir any debate but just to comment that I wouldn't take the word of a doctor who is not an ID expert over peer reviewed scientific studies. I am not involved in those studies many of which are looking at information older than I am, but I can share with you my own personal observations. I vaccinate, I see the previously vaccinated children of my physician colleagues, and since my wife is a dentist we also see her colleagues children. Zero cases of autism in the bunch. This is a relatively small sample size though, but once again just an observation.

I am not posting to argue with you or be sarcastic with you, so hopefully no one takes it that way. I just think that good information is the key, not as I said before making making assumptions or subjective statements about data without looking at the whole picture. One should review the information and form conclusions based on facts. I have had patients who did not want to vaccinate their children or themselves. In my opinion I think that is fine AS long as they are willing to accept any consequences that may ensue. The converse is also true people must accept the consequences of taking the vaccine or treatment as well. I always try to make every treatment clear from a risk benefit point of view. I only get frustrated when people ask for advice, we give it, they don't follow, and then get upset that we didn't help them.

SO I know another long post but I am going to correct your above statement, "When THE doctors won't give it to their own kids." It should be, "When SOME doctors won't give it to their own kids." We do as well as all the other physicians we know.

 

[Geoff_M]

Sorry I haven't had any psych 101 classes.

I did!!! That's where my wife and I met... true story!

 

[luvmy3]

Thanks... Part of my knowledge comes from the fact that, as one of my critics points out, I work in "Big Pharma". Another reason is that I find the whole "anti-vaccination" movement to be rather fascinating and have studied it, read about it, and debated its members on occasion. I've always had an interest in this sort of human behavior. Before, Snopes made things a lot easier, I used to be an amateur buff in the area of studying Urban Legends. I was even cited in one of the books of the leading Urban Legend folklorist Prof. Jan Harold Brunvand (The Baby Train, 1993). I find that these two areas have a lot in common, though one of them carries a lot more in terms of consequences. The degree in which someone will cling to the notion, when debating, whether or not childhood vaccines contain tissue from aborted human fetuses is about the same as when I used to have long discussions with other people in the past about whether or not you could redeem soft drink can pull tabs to hospitals for kidney dialysis for children.

Some no doubt will discount what I say because of the industry I work for... but I find it odd that while I am accused of having a conflict of interest on this issue, the same standard isn't apparently applied when it comes to citing people on the other side of the issue who earn income from being a paid expert witness for trial lawyers, or selling books & DVDs, or selling tickets to seminars, or offering their alternative medical treatments for a fee, etc. etc.

Geoff, that explains so much about all of your posts, not just the one in this thread. I mean that in a good way

 

[LuvOrlando]

I just read through this whole post and can't help but point out that it got really off topic. The original issue at hand was the following basic theme:

"The H1N1 vaccine is not useful because it will not keep me from contracting he illness."

The problem with this idea is that it wholly misunderstands how the vaccines work and how our immune systems work. Vaccines are not force fields. They do not prevent the illness from invading our bodies and the expectation that they behave this way causes a whole lot of confusion.

Their purpose of a vaccine is to prime our immune systems by introducing a protein sequence presented by the microbe (its identifier if you will) so our own defenses will recognize it and launch an quick attack. Since there are better qualified people on here than me I hope some will better explain it. But, in a nutshell, our own immune systems are incredibly good at what they do. All day every day we are assaulted by infectious agents and our bodies expertly marginalize these invaders. After the fight our bodies hold onto the identifier of the microbe in cells I think are called Memory Cells which hang around in our Lymph Nodes. When an illness shows up our white blood cells absorb the infectious agent and go back to our Lymph Nodes where the microbe's protein coat is presented to our immune system. This presentation does 2 things first, it shows itself off so that the rest of our immune system can recognize the invader and launch an attack. Second, if we are lucky, it will tap a Memory Cell already primed on how to kill that microbe and millions of finely tuned immune cells will be dumped into our systems armed and ready to kill.

A vaccine creates memory cells which are ready to fight for us. This vastly reduces the amount of time it takes our bodies to launch a counter strike. The main benefit in the reduction of time is that the invading microbe has less time to overwhelm our bodies before having to contend with our own bodies arsenal.

People who are high risk can't afford the extra days because their bodies are more easily overwhelmed.

OK, that's my 2 cents as I understand it from reading a recent Microbiology book.

 

[aprilgail2]

Another wacky installment from the anals of "does she really believe what she writes???".

LOL---I find the posts to be like a trainwreck---I just can't go past them without looking!!!!!

 

[C.Ann]

To address the youtube video you posted of this Doctor. I just want to point out to you that I find it odd the Doctor in the video is labeled as an infectious disease specialist. In my circle of specialists we have seen this gentleman's interviews before and he actually talks about hormone therapy in other interviews. This is the realm of endocrinology. However he is neither an infectious disease doctor nor is he an endocrinologist. I think we looked him up when we first saw him and I remember him being an Anesthesiologist. He also has Zero clinical studies published in his name so I am not sure he is an "expert" in either field. My training was all surgical so I am NOT stating that I am an expert in this field either. So since neither of us is an Infectious Disease specialist I would estimate that he and I have the same qualifications regarding this topic. I will also add that the infectious disease specialists I know do not agree with his view..

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Not that it makes any difference, but I have cookie sheets that are older than that doctor.. LOL

He was "all over the map" and couldn't seem to focus on the topic at hand.. He was asked specifically about the H1N1 vaccine and chose to clump "all" vaccines together - having claimed to see the terrible damage caused by this vaccine.. I would not consider this particular doctor a "reliable" source..

I also think it's kind of sad that this thread was never meant to be a PSA about the possibility of still getting the swine flu even if you had the vaccination, but rather a place to further push the "anti-vaccine agenda" - ALL vaccines..

 

[LuvOrlando]

I agree Aprilgail2... especially all the ones who pop in and take nasty swipes at everyone then duck out without making any useful contributions to the conversation at hand. Sheesh, you would think they'd have better stuff to do with their time. Guess not.

C. Ann, I think you might be right. What I don't get, and never will, is why some people want so much to make the whole world do things their way. What's in it for them?

 

[DVC Sadie]

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Not that it makes any difference, but I have cookie sheets that are older than that doctor.. LOL

He was "all over the map" and couldn't seem to focus on the topic at hand.. He was asked specifically about the H1N1 vaccine and chose to clump "all" vaccines together - having claimed to see the terrible damage caused by this vaccine.. I would not consider this particular doctor a "reliable" source..

I also think it's kind of sad that this thread was never meant to be a PSA about the possibility of still getting the swine flu even if you had the vaccination, but rather a place to further push the "anti-vaccine agenda" - ALL vaccines..

Hey, quit taking my cookie sheets. I agree 100% with your post.

I do wonder sometimes if the same people who are so anti vaccine would have felt the same way before the polio vaccine (and other innoculations) were invented. I remember visiting family who were in iron lungs.

 

[C.Ann]

I do wonder sometimes if the same people who are so anti vaccine would have felt the same way before the polio vaccine (and other innoculations) were invented. I remember visiting family who were in iron lungs.

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My sister was "one" of those people.. It was horrible.. My parents didn't think we needed the vaccine - until we did.. My sister went through a horrible time - 9 months in a special hospital, a year being tutored at home, ended up with permanent damage to her arms and legs, and now suffers from post polio syndrome..

 

[DVC Sadie]

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My sister was "one" of those people.. It was horrible.. My parents didn't think we needed the vaccine - until we did.. My sister went through a horrible time - 9 months in a special hospital, a year being tutored at home, ended up with permanent damage to her arms and legs, and now suffers from post polio syndrome..

Oh, I am so sorry about your sister and I didn't realize when I posted that it would hit home for you.

You see thats what gets me. I just don't understand why some people don't avail themselves to preventive medicine, it boggles my mind.