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So, when it came time to develop a curriculum for the College & Careers class, I knew it had to be personal for the kids. I also wanted them to have an idea as they went into high school what they were striving to achieve during their four years and beyond. I also wanted them to have a financial plan to whatever they chose to do. We evaluated their skills/abilities as students. We explored jobs they were interested in. We researched what training/education was needed. How much those jobs paid and the projected demand for them in the future. I shared the vocational paths our high school offers. We explored trade schools; everybody had to pick a job even if they didn't think they were heading that direction. We looked at local trade schools and requirements to get in and costs. We looked at local apprenticeship programs. We looked at the local junior/community college and how they could go there for free. We explored colleges and researched up to 10 dream colleges and 4 local schools of their choice. We looked at GPA and high school class requirements, majors, ROTC programs, merit and sports scholarships offered and especially tuition/fees/room/board costs. We saw the difference costs between the schools and in-state vs. out-of state tuition. We looked at the military and even selected a branch/specialty. We explored military tuition assistance as well as military academies. We filled out college applications, wrote entrance essays, and took abbreviated versions of the ACT, SAT, ASVAB, and a Trade school entrance exam. We researched companies that had tuition reinbursement so they knew what jobs would be more advantageous for them as early part-time jobs in high school. They were shocked to find some companies that would pay 100% of their tuition costs. We looked at grants, loans, and the FAFSA. Kids and parents both LOVED it.

what kills me (and my oldest STILL complains about it to this day) is my youngest who was in special ed received this kind of curriculum in his 'life skills' classes throughout high school yet nothing comparable was offered to any other students :mad: the seniors took a class called 'current world problems' and while it touched on some aspects of personal finance it totally ignored the biggest financial issue facing these soon to be high school grads.
 
We've heard quite a bit of that from one of my son's friends, who did major in a very practical field (mechanical engineering) and worked to put himself through school because he knew he could only borrow the drop in the bucket that is the federal borrowing limit. He graduated in December and still hasn't gotten a job in his field, and the feedback he's getting from places where he made it to the final handful only to be passed over is that they went with applicants who had real-world experience. But if you're working to pay your tuition, you often don't have the time for the (mostly unpaid or very low paying) internships that get you that all-important first bit of experience.
Tell 'em to come to KC, my husband's degree is in aerospace engineering but he's been functioning and working as a mechanical for years. It's a fairly competitive market here with engineering with multiple big name companies. (ETA: although that lack of experience will be an issue here too, my husband was saying the job market is really wanting those with experience but there are a variety of companies here).

There is truth to internships though. My husband's prior company that he worked as an intern at 17/18 then all throughout college as an actual employee as they asked him to stay on and then up to age 32 almost 33 did interns most years. I think summer 2020 they had interns but with the pandemic cancelled that. I can't remember if they did it for 2021 but I know they were doing it for 2022. However the internships were often how they found a pool of applicants from the young ones but it wasn't a 100% guarantee they would do the summer program. For my husband they asked him to stay on past that summer all throughout college and then his Junior year of college offered him a full time job once he graduated but because his degree was in aerospace and he was working as a mechanical they asked him to take a few courses that would give him a bit more mechanical knowledge.

As far as unpaid internships in engineering you're probably not going to find much unpaid. I don't remember exactly what my husband got paid but it was more than I was making in retail by at least several dollars. Now I'm not sure what the internships pay now but they are likely at the very least decent enough.

As far as jobs I think you'd probably want to have your engineering internship be your job, again not sure you're really finding no pay ones these days much less in engineering but some areas may not be suited for the engineering market. For my husband he completed the aerospace program in 4 years when it can be built in to take 5 years so he was taking more than 15 credit hours all 4 years. He also worked at least 1,000 hours during the year (realistically he was doing several hours a day 5 days a week commuting back and forth more than 30miles) which was great as that counted towards his service years and allowed him to rank up in vacation time amongst other things. That's how he was in his 15 year when he opted to leave the company but he wasn't quite 33 yet.

Realistically your son's friend should have really pushed hard to do one summer's worth of internship if there was a place near enough to the college that offered one. As far as my husband's company that would have been a M-F internship (paid hourly) not sure about all the companies out there though. As far as my husband has told me over the years for engineering that internship usually becomes pretty important even just 1 summer.

Personally I believe at a certain point some things become moot. For someone straight out of college that internship may be incredibly important for a perspective engineering company but for someone 15,20 years older than college grad age? That's a bit much. Reminds me of Garmin where they have typically either a 3.0 GPA high school or college requirement for jobs even the admin. Yes that makes sense for someone just graduated from either high school or college but at some point your GPA from 20 years ago becomes less reflective of who you are now.
 
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I have never ask anyone to pay back my loans or debt. I went to a state school with a loan for my undergraduate work because I couldn't afford higher priced institutions that I was accepted into. I paid my loan back. If you can't afford it, and you need a loan, you need to pay it back. If the Federal or State government pays it off, it means my tax dollars are paying it. It isn't my responsibility to pay off someone else's debt. I got my law degree at night while working a full time job because that was what I could afford. That is the way it needs to work. You can't afford it, you don't do it.
 
Financial education is hard to teach adolescents. I taught economics to 8th graders a few years ago and almost all struggled with the concepts. Background knowledge just doesn't exist and it's hard to make those connections with the material.

About 10-11 years ago, I was asked to teach an 8th grade quarterly College & Careers class. I wasn't given any curriculum and just told "It's a state requirement. Figure it out." So, I drew upon my own experience.

I was the first person in my family to graduate high school. I joined the military to get money for college and get out of my small town. At the time, the Montgomery GI Bill was "pay $1,200 your first 12 months, get $12,000 for college". Two enlistments later, I got out and started college at age 25 with a family. It took 8 years, three community colleges in two different states, a university, a couple of jobs, more than $12K, but I finished my bachelors debt free at age 33. My daughter kinda followed my example in less time: community college and the same university. However, from my graduation in 2003 to hers in 2013, the tuition had doubled. She lived at home, worked part-time, and we paid for it. Her brother made straight As and took AP/dual credit classes, so I felt like his best chance was for a big merit scholarship. Like most that age, he had big dreams. So, I included them but insisted he apply to local universities as well. He applied at seven schools; interviewed but rejected by Yale, waitlisted by Northwestern, but accepted everywhere else. The local universities offered the most money; he accepted a full-ride from the same local university that we attended.

So, when it came time to develop a curriculum for the College & Careers class, I knew it had to be personal for the kids. I also wanted them to have an idea as they went into high school what they were striving to achieve during their four years and beyond. I also wanted them to have a financial plan to whatever they chose to do. We evaluated their skills/abilities as students. We explored jobs they were interested in. We researched what training/education was needed. How much those jobs paid and the projected demand for them in the future. I shared the vocational paths our high school offers. We explored trade schools; everybody had to pick a job even if they didn't think they were heading that direction. We looked at local trade schools and requirements to get in and costs. We looked at local apprenticeship programs. We looked at the local junior/community college and how they could go there for free. We explored colleges and researched up to 10 dream colleges and 4 local schools of their choice. We looked at GPA and high school class requirements, majors, ROTC programs, merit and sports scholarships offered and especially tuition/fees/room/board costs. We saw the difference costs between the schools and in-state vs. out-of state tuition. We looked at the military and even selected a branch/specialty. We explored military tuition assistance as well as military academies. We filled out college applications, wrote entrance essays, and took abbreviated versions of the ACT, SAT, ASVAB, and a Trade school entrance exam. We researched companies that had tuition reinbursement so they knew what jobs would be more advantageous for them as early part-time jobs in high school. They were shocked to find some companies that would pay 100% of their tuition costs. We looked at grants, loans, and the FAFSA. Kids and parents both LOVED it.

Then.... our principal retired and our school went into an upheaval. Schedules were changed and we lost the time slot... and the class was gone. I try to work a condensed version of it into the last couple of weeks of the year, but it's not enough time to lay a good foundation. I always tell my students that they need to take high school to prepare themselves to seize opportunities, including financial ones ... because if they don't or can't, someone else is also working their butts off to take it from them. And for a lot of American students in a myriad of circumstances, that's exactly what happens.

It's been an interesting thread.
This is amazing! Thank you for doing it. I would’ve paid to have my kids attend a class like this at that age!
 

Man, I should've known, sooooo much absurd ignorance in this thread... I guess some people just don't care how they come across.
I had a long post typed out, but it's not worth it, some people will just never get it.
 
You can't afford it, you don't do it.
Well that would throw our country into a state of uneducated persons fairly quick. College many decades ago used to be primarily attainable to wealthy white males (not minorities either). We could go back to that if you want too...but I don't think anyone truly thinks like that..well I hope not!
 
Well that would throw our country into a state of uneducated persons fairly quick. College used to be primarily attainable to wealthy white males (not minorities either). We could go back to that if you want too...but I don't think anyone truly thinks like that..well I hope not!
But financial aid does exist. It's a system with flaws, but we have not fallen into a "state of uneducated persons fairly quick".
 
I have never ask anyone to pay back my loans or debt. I went to a state school with a loan for my undergraduate work because I couldn't afford higher priced institutions that I was accepted into. I paid my loan back. If you can't afford it, and you need a loan, you need to pay it back. If the Federal or State government pays it off, it means my tax dollars are paying it. It isn't my responsibility to pay off someone else's debt. I got my law degree at night while working a full time job because that was what I could afford. That is the way it needs to work. You can't afford it, you don't do it.
How much did it cost you? My daughter chose a public university where tuition was $20,000 a year after a $16,000 scholarship instead of a higher ranked private that was $57,000 (these numbers don’t include room and board which adds $15,000 a year). I think my public university was around $4000 a year, no scholarship. I wish my kids could go to college in the 80’s.
 
But financial aid does exist. It's a system with flaws, but we have not fallen into a "state of uneducated persons fairly quick".
I was strictly responding to the statement of "if you can't afford it don't go"

I understand the poster mentioned loans and I don't think people honestly (in the interest of a good faith conversation) take out loans with the thought they will never be able to pay it back as people seem to somewhat allude to just scamming the system. But if you can't afford it don't go is like a trope of a phrase. Sure if you can't afford your Disney trip don't go, but our education of our country is quite a bit different than that.

Part of why we have what we have is the widening of who we educated in this country. It's not about the financial aid system that a phrase of "can't afford it don't go" speaks to. Nor is the financial aid system comprise of the entirety of the issue with respects to attainability of higher education as we also know the cost of education is just nutty too.

And I didn't say "we have fallen" I said if the thought process was if you can't afford it don't go was applied that would mean a slew of people who take out loans as a means to go to school would not which would bring down drastically the level of educated persons in higher education (this includes trade schools). Just looking up stats an article from June this year shows the level of college grads aged 25 and above in 1960 was 7.7% and in 2020 that number was just about 38%.
 
Re working. Will just share my daughter’s recent story. (Not going to quote anyone because I think nuances can be unique with each student and program. Sometimes during these discussions I feel like we get bogged down arguing about details and lose the main point.) So I am speaking generally here.

DD was a Nursing student (in a BSN program). She knew she wanted to get hospital experience while she was in school for a few reasons: she needed the money (had another job but not in the medical field), it would likely help her to get a hospital job there later, she hoped (because it’s not an absolute), and she was excited to get started (wanted to be a nurse since she was little). The hospital she wanted to work at (because they’re all a little different) required either a CNA certification or nursing students to have taken their first nursing course in college in which they learn how to take vital signs and provide basic care to patients. It cost something like $1200 dollars to obtain the CNA certificate so she waited until she had that first nursing course under her belt which was offered second semester of sophomore year (after students complete a strong foundation in the sciences). She got the ball rolling in March of that semester so that as soon as classes were over that spring, she started orientation on her hospital job (which was labeled a “Co op” to differentiate nursing students from CNAs, though the job is essentially the same). This gave her two solid years of hospital experience prior to graduation.

Turned out that hospital job was one of the best things she could’ve done because it gave her the ‘real world‘ experience she needed to get ‘thrown to the wolves’ once she graduated - in spring of 2020. Just to clarify, under normal circumstances it can feel like getting thrown to the wolves as a new nurse because patients are more acutely ill than ever before and hospital wards can feel like war zones with staffing challenges and blistering new technology every day, etc. But that particular spring it was worse, because of Covid. In fact, the last semester of her training was insane because she had a great senior practicum experience going at a top hospital one-on-one with an RN in the Emergency Room when one Tuesday she was notified that clinical experiences were on hold, only to never resume again. ☹️

That spring, colleges everywhere had to scramble to create ‘virtual patient experiences’ for their students in order for them to complete their education. For an older nurse like me it was pretty fascinating to see how that worked. They made patient situations as close to what one would really see (with patients swearing and all!), and there was interaction between the nurse and the patient. In order to continue on with the encounter the nurse learning virtually had to say the right things to the patient, read about things a patient was experiencing like they would for real on the job, and answer questions successfully, etc. I was suitably impressed. Not as good as the real thing, but pretty good. But I was so glad my daughter had already been working intensely with patients on the job so she knew how to interact with them for real. And the unit she was working on gave her both medical and surgical experience, which was perfect. (Sometimes jobs can lead to narrow experiences where students or new nurses can get pigeonholed into working with just a specific population of patients instead of a wide variety.) The ability to interact successfully with patients is a skill that cannot be underestimated.

Nursing students have ‘clinical experiences’ in medical settings as part of their education. Generally they go in groups to hospital units with a clinical instructor to help care for patients, but the instructor has six or more students to oversee so what they do there can be limited, and they only stay for six hours or so, then break off for post-conference where they meet as a group and discuss concepts for the day. Students may branch off to go to the OR that day if their patient is going there, or other places with their assigned patient, or off with a specialty nurse for the day like wound care, IV therapy, infection control, etc., and those can be really great experiences. It’s not until their senior year that they work one on one with a preceptor who works for the hospital and not the school. DD had a couple of experiences that weren’t great as part of a clinical group - once or twice there were two nurses working with one patient because there weren’t enough patients on the unit (suitable for students) so that was awkward. A student that DD had to share a patient with one day had no real-world experience and had a lot of questions to DD (!) about how to do basic things. DD had to run to go find a BP cuff one time and left the patient room to go find one. The student who never worked was perplexed about how and where she knew how to find one. These are things that can really trip up a new nurse on a job in a fast-paced environment and nurse managers who hire know this, so a candidate with work experience will likely have an advantage.

When she was well into her first year of working as a new nurse (on the unit she worked on during school), DD said she felt that her work experience was the thing that helped her transition to the role the most. Thirty some-odd years had passed between my daughter’s college experiences and my own, but that was one thing that had not changed, as there were nursing students I’d been in school with who didn’t work in the field, either, and many of them struggled in different ways. One actually decided to become a truck driver after graduation 😮 but later I heard she did eventually get a job as a nurse. So I do think that working is good, but that longer hours should be saved for summers as workload during the school year prohibits working too much. Most programs say the student should not work more than 20 hrs/week, but don’t outright say they shouldn’t work at all (at least the ones I know of).
 
How much did it cost you? My daughter chose a public university where tuition was $20,000 a year after a $16,000 scholarship instead of a higher ranked private that was $57,000 (these numbers don’t include room and board which adds $15,000 a year). I think my public university was around $4000 a year, no scholarship. I wish my kids could go to college in the 80’s.
I went to school in the late 60s and it was a few thousand which doesn't seem like much, but my first job out of college paid $9,000/yr.
 
I am absolutely 100% saying this, other countries do it all the time and our country is one of the wealthiest in the world yet we fail to invest in our own and I want to know why, I also want it to change. The US throws money, billions and billions all over the world, we can afford to make sure our own education system is among the finest in the world, and completely free.
The difference is that, other countries which fund university education, weed out candidates who are unlikely to succeed. They have tracking, or other methods, to make sure a below average student will go the way of vocational training, etc. You cannot compare the US against a country like that, because student pools are apples to oranges. In the US, virtually anyone can get into some university. They could be a C- high school student who has subpar math, science, and reading skills, yet the government will give them the same exact student loan amount as an A+ student who excels in every subject. That is beyond foolish.
 
The difference is that, other countries which fund university education, weed out candidates who are unlikely to succeed. They have tracking, or other methods, to make sure a below average student will go the way of vocational training, etc. You cannot compare the US against a country like that, because student pools are apples to oranges. In the US, virtually anyone can get into some university. They could be a C- high school student who has subpar math, science, and reading skills, yet the government will give them the same exact student loan amount as an A+ student who excels in every subject. That is beyond foolish.
The issue with that is that there are students who believed they were the top of their class in high school (and likely were) and then ended up having issues with college. And conversely students who weren't the best in high school finding college worked well for them. And then all those in the middle

Complete and utter reliance on high school aptitude for one's entire educational future is foolish IMO.

ETA: and I should say colleges themselves act as gate keepers with respects to their admission requirements but restricting financial aid access for the ability to go to higher education period is way different.
 
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There is one difference. I lived in Germany for many years and saw that German kids went to University basically for free on the government dime. The difference is that they were basically on a prep school track that was constantly re-affirmed via testing from about age 10. Only the kids who tested highly and got good grades in all their required courses were admitted to University. In our country anyone can go and the drop-out rates are as high as 60%. This is funded and enabled by our Federal student loan program. At least when student loans were privately funded a little research was put into the kid and their ability to pay before loans were granted. No longer. You can get a grad school loan for your pet fish and the Fed will eagerly give you the money.
And THAT is the problem. When student loans were privately funded, I had to go to the bank and prove I was a good risk. I promise you, banks turned down students who were not good risks. And the repayment rate was much higher.

Today, with the federal government handing out loans like candy, there is no assessment. A student who struggles in HS and wants to major in the equivalent of basket weaving gets the same loan dollars as an A+ student majoring in mechanical engineering. That makes no sense.

People who compare a system like Germany’s to ours and claim “They pay!” are ignoring the HUGE difference it makes that Germany weeds out a large percentage of students from even going to university
 
Well that would throw our country into a state of uneducated persons fairly quick. College many decades ago used to be primarily attainable to wealthy white males (not minorities either). We could go back to that if you want too...but I don't think anyone truly thinks like that..well I hope not!
Note, just because you go to college, doesn't mean you're intelligent. Same as just because you didn't go to college, doesn't mean you're uneducated.

Back when you're talking with the "primarily attainable to wealthy white males..." you didn't need a college degree to make a living. Most jobs require a college degree now whether the job needs said education or not. No need for a college education to answer phones and do payroll once every 2 weeks, but it's now required. That sort of thing.
 
Well that would throw our country into a state of uneducated persons fairly quick. College many decades ago used to be primarily attainable to wealthy white males (not minorities either). We could go back to that if you want too...but I don't think anyone truly thinks like that..well I hope not!

i was born in '61. not one mention of college as an option for us at the working class elementary school i attended. some mention by the time i hit jr. high b/c we then were attending with the wealthier kids from the area but it was still largely and obviously directed to those kids. by high school in the 70's there was more talk but it was obviously much more directed to the kids from families of wealth/males in particular (unless a female expressed the desire to be a teacher or a nurse). it saddens me that the majority of females i graduated with that did go off to college dropped out as soon as they married (the old 'going to college to get my mrs.' was still prevalent) but by the 25th reunion it was heartening to hear of many that had gone back to complete their degrees.

you don't have to go too many generations back to a time when going to college was the exception among our classmates for many of us.
 
I went to school in the late 60s and it was a few thousand which doesn't seem like much, but my first job out of college paid $9,000/yr.
According to the National Center for Education Statistics, for the 1970-71 academic year, the average in-state tuition and fees for one year at a public non-profit university was $394. By the 2020-21 academic year, that amount jumped to $10,560, an increase of 2,580%.
 
Note, just because you go to college, doesn't mean you're intelligent. Same as just because you didn't go to college, doesn't mean you're uneducated.

Back when you're talking with the "primarily attainable to wealthy white males..." you didn't need a college degree to make a living. Most jobs require a college degree now whether the job needs said education or not. No need for a college education to answer phones and do payroll once every 2 weeks, but it's now required. That sort of thing.
You're right about the intelligence and I sincerely hope that others did not read it that way..although I would note I don't think majority would I can completely see how that would read that way. In my follow up comment I mentioned higher education which was the intent of my comment about educated because prior to then we really didn't have diversity in educational opportunities past high school and globally that is a very important aspect to one's health of the country. The level of opportunities for those to even go to college was brought about by the means of increasing who could go.

As far as your secondary comment that I would say is a half truth. I absolutely agree about degree inflation, I have my own experience with that. But the time period in which I spoke of didn't even give the opportunity for things to many persons in this country. Like I mentioned pages ago discrimination protection in colleges so that women had a shot wasn't even around til 1970 or so. So perhaps a college degree wasn't needed to make a living in 1960 but who could make a living was arbitrarily decided upon by some interesting mentalities towards just who was deserving of a college education..thus my comment.
 
Note, just because you go to college, doesn't mean you're intelligent. Same as just because you didn't go to college, doesn't mean you're uneducated.
Agreed. MIT hired crossing guards as too many of their students were getting hit by cars crossing the street.

There are different types of intelligence.

I know people who can build or fix anything, put anything together, get things working again, etc., but don’t ask them to write a paper!
 
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