Student Loans

[Colleen27]

What I am finding is that most of the new hires are kids with rich parents. I'm seeing less income diversity in university grads today, and I blame the ridiculous cost of university.

That's part of it. The expanded expectations for internships are another part. We've heard quite a bit of that from one of my son's friends, who did major in a very practical field (mechanical engineering) and worked to put himself through school because he knew he could only borrow the drop in the bucket that is the federal borrowing limit. He graduated in December and still hasn't gotten a job in his field, and the feedback he's getting from places where he made it to the final handful only to be passed over is that they went with applicants who had real-world experience. But if you're working to pay your tuition, you often don't have the time for the (mostly unpaid or very low paying) internships that get you that all-important first bit of experience. Meanwhile, DD20's former boyfriend and a high school friend of hers both had the same major and enough parental support to spend 2-3 summers interning instead of working for a paycheck and both had jobs within weeks of graduation. I'm sure that's not the only difference - DS's friend went to a minor public university in the state where his father lives but is looking for work here, where most people have never heard of his alma mater, while DD's BF went to a uni with national name recognition and her HS friend went to a minor public university in our state that has a good reputation and a decent alumni network - but it does make a big difference.

A student who can't afford to do an unpaid internship can't get the degree I have. The internship is a requirement - I actually had to have two, one for my major and one for my minor - and in my field landing a paid internship is about as easy as stopping off at the store for a winning lotto ticket. There are some out there but they usually have strings, like a need to relocate to an expensive city, while the local internship opportunities are relatively plentiful but unpaid.

 

[LuvOrlando]

People from low income backgrounds are usually eligible for need based financial aid.

Are you proposing universal public funding of college degrees? How about grad school? What makes that different from undergrad or K-12?

I am absolutely 100% saying this, other countries do it all the time and our country is one of the wealthiest in the world yet we fail to invest in our own and I want to know why, I also want it to change. The US throws money, billions and billions all over the world, we can afford to make sure our own education system is among the finest in the world, and completely free.

 

[mom2rtk]

I am absolutely 100% saying this, other countries do it all the time and our country is one of the wealthiest in the world yet we fail to invest in our own and I want to know why, I also want it to change. The US throws money, billions and billions all over the world, we can afford to make sure our own education system is among the finest in the world, and completely free.

Ok, we are just going to have to disagree on this. Strongly.

This country’s money tree is sagging already after everything that has been spent in the wake of covid.

We can’t even make K-12 the finest in the world, despite being among some of the highest funding countries.

 

[indimom]

My comment is certainly not false. If you looked at the job postings at the hospital network where my sister works, they clearly say they require a BSN and MSN. (I did look.) So when I say they want a masters, that’s what they want. The people who already worked there are offered compensation for advancing their degrees to the desired level, although my sister did not take them up on it. She’s too close to retirement. I’d be interested to know where your daughter works where half of the nurses have an associates degree.

You can work here with an associates degree in nursing; but, you're unlikely to work at a hospital with that - not in my area anyway. The hospital where I work will no longer hire nurses with only an ASN and; as of 2020, all their current ASNs had to be enrolled in a bachelor's degree program (no limit on how long it would take as long as they are enrolled and working toward it). I know a couple nurses who are finishing up their bachelors now. At that point, I will no longer work with any ASNs. This is the same approach every other hospital in the area has taken.

Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes. There is no way that an ASN with 20 years of experience in nursing NEEDS to get a bachelor's degree in order to become a better nurse. But, it's a requirement and if they want to keep working, they have to get it done.


On a Side Note since we are talking primarily about education related to debt.

My employer reimbursed $5000 a year for nurses working on their bachelors degree, that helped make it doable.

But I still chose to take out a small loan and go to a more expensive/private college (Indiana Wesleyan) to get my degree finished. I'm lucky that I'm older (maybe a bit wiser) and have more financial freedom than some of my cohorts.
For my part, it was one of the few schools that accepted credits from my unrelated bachelors degree from 20 years prior, did not require me to take part in a clinical experience (which requires a lot of hours I just didn't have). And it was an accelerated one-class-at-a-time approach that made it easier for me to complete/focus while working 50+ hours a week. I'm an older nurse/student and I just didn't have the bandwidth to manage life/work/family and multiple college level courses all at the same time. That program allowed me to get the final piece of paper with the least impact on my life and family.

At least one of the nurses I work with is really struggling to manage her life, career and return to school. She has 3 kids under 6, works 30+ hours a week, and takes 4 classes at a time. She's exhausted and still has about 12 months to go. She chose this option because it was the lowest cost, based on taking the max credits per semester and limiting her tuition costs. Good for her, she may get through without debt. But, we're all a bit worried about her because we can SEE the toll it's taking on her personally trying to get it all done without taking on debt.

 

[Southernmiss]

That's part of it. The expanded expectations for internships are another part. We've heard quite a bit of that from one of my son's friends, who did major in a very practical field (mechanical engineering) and worked to put himself through school because he knew he could only borrow the drop in the bucket that is the federal borrowing limit. He graduated in December and still hasn't gotten a job in his field, and the feedback he's getting from places where he made it to the final handful only to be passed over is that they went with applicants who had real-world experience. But if you're working to pay your tuition, you often don't have the time for the (mostly unpaid or very low paying) internships that get you that all-important first bit of experience. Meanwhile, DD20's former boyfriend and a high school friend of hers both had the same major and enough parental support to spend 2-3 summers interning instead of working for a paycheck and both had jobs within weeks of graduation. I'm sure that's not the only difference - DS's friend went to a minor public university in the state where his father lives but is looking for work here, where most people have never heard of his alma mater, while DD's BF went to a uni with national name recognition and her HS friend went to a minor public university in our state that has a good reputation and a decent alumni network - but it does make a big difference.

A student who can't afford to do an unpaid internship can't get the degree I have. The internship is a requirement - I actually had to have two, one for my major and one for my minor - and in my field landing a paid internship is about as easy as stopping off at the store for a winning lotto ticket. There are some out there but they usually have strings, like a need to relocate to an expensive city, while the local internship opportunities are relatively plentiful but unpaid.

We are finding that there's truth to this.

We were those middle class parents who told our kids to go instate to the school where they could get a degree with little to no debt. And get jobs in college to have skin in the game.

They all got 4 year scholarships. One got his grad degree with no debt and has been successfully working in his field right out of college.

Another has $80,000 in debt because he needed 3 years of post graduate work at $30,000 a year to become a pharmacist. He's now successfully working in his field and will soon start paying his loans back.

A third debt free graduate is finding that working his way through school with college jobs did not allow him time for research opportunities that other non-working- my-way through school students were able to do. Those kids are now entering medical school this year. My kid is still working his tail off to make up those clinical experiences he did not get in college so that medical schools will look at his application. Very frustrating for him and us to know this after the fact.

Our 4th child is a junior in college. She only has 1 job and it's a student instructor job on campus.

We are not pushing her to get another job, as our view has changed.

Because she has more time as a student, she had an amazing paid internship this summer in her field which will help her future more than working in an off campus job ever would.

 

[kanerf]

I am absolutely 100% saying this, other countries do it all the time and our country is one of the wealthiest in the world yet we fail to invest in our own and I want to know why, I also want it to change. The US throws money, billions and billions all over the world, we can afford to make sure our own education system is among the finest in the world, and completely free.

There is one difference. I lived in Germany for many years and saw that German kids went to University basically for free on the government dime. The difference is that they were basically on a prep school track that was constantly re-affirmed via testing from about age 10. Only the kids who tested highly and got good grades in all their required courses were admitted to University. In our country anyone can go and the drop-out rates are as high as 60%. This is funded and enabled by our Federal student loan program. At least when student loans were privately funded a little research was put into the kid and their ability to pay before loans were granted. No longer. You can get a grad school loan for your pet fish and the Fed will eagerly give you the money.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I have never, ever heard of engineering having low or non-paid internships. Even back in the Stone Age, when I was in engineering school, I worked summers as an "engineering trainee". Another option is co-op programs, where you work 2, 8-month stints and graduate in 5 years with a BS. Real world experience and a paycheck, to boot!

I do think that some college courses could be easier than a difficult HS one--particularly for kids who go heavy in AP courses or who earn an IB diploma (similar rigor). Those students are used to a hard course load. My DS16 is starting dual enrollment this fall at the local branch of State U. He'll start with calculus, but also plans to take college chemistry, then next year it will be organic chem and differential equations. But--he hopes to become a chemical engineer, so (a) he loves this stuff, and (b) he should be able to handle it. He COULD have taken classes at the nearby community college--and they would have been free, whereas this route, we have to pay his tuition. But, I was concerned about the rigor at the community college--he could potentially do fine there, but then be under-prepared at whatever school he attends full-time in 2 years.

The other thing I wanted to mention about how other countries do college--yes, some pay for college, but they certainly aren't paying for college for everyone. If you pass the exams--great! You're in! But if you don't--no college for you! So, college becomes much more of a "class" thing, for better or worse. Of course, there's vo-tech type training for the kids who don't make the cut, as there is here.

 

[mom2rtk]

My kids have had a variety of dual credit and AP courses through the years. They will absolutely tell you those classes don't have the same rigor as the ones offered onsite at their 4 year Universities. Since 2 of my kids were engineering majors, I counseled both of them to retake some of those courses once they got to college, to lay the right foundation. They used the Calculus and Chemistry credits they brought in with them as elective credits instead.

Can't speak to the rigor of the Community Colleges around here. But the go to advice for students struggling in classes at the University are to take the class over the summer at the CC so it's easier to pass.

 

[mom2rtk]

There is one difference. I lived in Germany for many years and saw that German kids went to University basically for free on the government dime. The difference is that they were basically on a prep school track that was constantly re-affirmed via testing from about age 10. Only the kids who tested highly and got good grades in all their required courses were admitted to University. In our country anyone can go and the drop-out rates are as high as 60%. This is funded and enabled by our Federal student loan program. At least when student loans were privately funded a little research was put into the kid and their ability to pay before loans were granted. No longer. You can get a grad school loan for your pet fish and the Fed will eagerly give you the money.

Seems like any program that paid expenses at the college level for a wide swath of people would have to have some sort of a regulator on it. And it appears that Germany does just that. Makes sense.

The other thing I wanted to mention about how other countries do college--yes, some pay for college, but they certainly aren't paying for college for everyone. If you pass the exams--great! You're in! But if you don't--no college for you! So, college becomes much more of a "class" thing, for better or worse. Of course, there's vo-tech type training for the kids who don't make the cut, as there is here.

Yes, that makes complete sense. And I can absolutely see how that makes it more classist.

 

[amylevan]

I am absolutely 100% saying this, other countries do it all the time and our country is one of the wealthiest in the world yet we fail to invest in our own and I want to know why, I also want it to change. The US throws money, billions and billions all over the world, we can afford to make sure our own education system is among the finest in the world, and completely free.

Um, nope. We can’t even fund decent K-12 schools across the board.

And as others have already noted, other countries that fund college do not do it across the board. Everyone here has the right to ACCESS higher education through any number of the ways noted on this thread, including loans, for whatever they want to major in. If we’re going to fully fund higher education, are we going to limit who has access? Limit majors to those that are “worthwhile”? Limit what you can major in based on your qualifications?

I can get behind free community college. It’s an appropriate stepping stone, gives students a chance to choose a major, allows time to grow up a bit. But that’s it. Anything beyond that I believe is the responsibility of the student and who needs to have skin in the game. “Having the college experience” does not need to be on the publics dime.

 

[Moliphino]

Ok, we are just going to have to disagree on this. Strongly.

This country’s money tree is sagging already after everything that has been spent in the wake of covid.

We can’t even make K-12 the finest in the world, despite being among some of the highest funding countries.

Some states can...

https://commonwealthmagazine.org/ed...:text=In the K-12 tests,in the 8th grade test.

 

[mom2rtk]

Some states can...

https://commonwealthmagazine.org/education/where-mass-ranks-on-education-tests/#:~:text=In the K-12 tests,in the 8th grade test.

Fair enough. But I was talking about the country as a whole since people are talking about college funding on a national level.

 

[Moliphino]

Fair enough. But I was talking about the country as a whole since people are talking about college funding on a national level.

But elementary isn't funded at a national level. It's up to states to prioritize education or not. Some do, some don't.

 

[mom2rtk]

But elementary isn't funded at a national level. It's up to states to prioritize education or not. Some do, some don't.

My point is that lots of places that spend a lot per pupil aren't getting good results. If your area is, that's great.

 

[sam_gordon]

Because the world needs ditch diggers, too

Yes, but because of more workplace efficiencies, the number of ditch diggers needed has drastically dropped. So what should those "would be" ditch diggers do?

 

[barkley]

I am absolutely 100% saying this, other countries do it all the time and our country is one of the wealthiest in the world yet we fail to invest in our own and I want to know why, I also want it to change. The US throws money, billions and billions all over the world, we can afford to make sure our own education system is among the finest in the world, and completely free.

in reality it's not completely free in all these other countries (currently about 22 in total). with some you are required to serve in the military year for year the number of years it took you to get your degree.

while the u.s. may be one of the wealthiest countries in the world it doesn't mean it's citizens (across the board) would be willing nor could they afford two of the primary means that many if not most of these other countries employ to fund free college (which many reports show has much lower enrollment than what we see under the current u.s. system)-

higher personal taxes (aka 'the tax wedge' which runs in some of these countries as high currently as 48 percent vs. the u.s. which is currently at about 28 percent), and

higher sales taxes (i'm in one of the highest sales taxed states in the u.s. but we are still at shy of 10 percent which is a heck of allot lower than the EU countries that seem to be hovering around 21 percent these days).

i just see too many people struggling day to day to make ends meet (many with college degrees, no student debt) i can't fathom how horrific their lives would be to see their income taxes increase 20 percent . i can't speak for anyone else but that would have a devastating effect on my household let alone if i also saw sales tax across the board increased by 11 percent).

i don't like the way the current system works but any changes have to be weighed out with how they will impact EVERYONE who will be held responsible for funding it (and i'm not personally comfortable obligating future generations to those levels of taxation).

 

[CGB]

Financial education is hard to teach adolescents. I taught economics to 8th graders a few years ago and almost all struggled with the concepts. Background knowledge just doesn't exist and it's hard to make those connections with the material.

About 10-11 years ago, I was asked to teach an 8th grade quarterly College & Careers class. I wasn't given any curriculum and just told "It's a state requirement. Figure it out." So, I drew upon my own experience.

I was the first person in my family to graduate high school. I joined the military to get money for college and get out of my small town. At the time, the Montgomery GI Bill was "pay $1,200 your first 12 months, get $12,000 for college". Two enlistments later, I got out and started college at age 25 with a family. It took 8 years, three community colleges in two different states, a university, a couple of jobs, more than $12K, but I finished my bachelors debt free at age 33. My daughter kinda followed my example in less time: community college and the same university. However, from my graduation in 2003 to hers in 2013, the tuition had doubled. She lived at home, worked part-time, and we paid for it. Her brother made straight As and took AP/dual credit classes, so I felt like his best chance was for a big merit scholarship. Like most that age, he had big dreams. So, I included them but insisted he apply to local universities as well. He applied at seven schools; interviewed but rejected by Yale, waitlisted by Northwestern, but accepted everywhere else. The local universities offered the most money; he accepted a full-ride from the same local university that we attended.

So, when it came time to develop a curriculum for the College & Careers class, I knew it had to be personal for the kids. I also wanted them to have an idea as they went into high school what they were striving to achieve during their four years and beyond. I also wanted them to have a financial plan to whatever they chose to do. We evaluated their skills/abilities as students. We explored jobs they were interested in. We researched what training/education was needed. How much those jobs paid and the projected demand for them in the future. I shared the vocational paths our high school offers. We explored trade schools; everybody had to pick a job even if they didn't think they were heading that direction. We looked at local trade schools and requirements to get in and costs. We looked at local apprenticeship programs. We looked at the local junior/community college and how they could go there for free. We explored colleges and researched up to 10 dream colleges and 4 local schools of their choice. We looked at GPA and high school class requirements, majors, ROTC programs, merit and sports scholarships offered and especially tuition/fees/room/board costs. We saw the difference costs between the schools and in-state vs. out-of state tuition. We looked at the military and even selected a branch/specialty. We explored military tuition assistance as well as military academies. We filled out college applications, wrote entrance essays, and took abbreviated versions of the ACT, SAT, ASVAB, and a Trade school entrance exam. We researched companies that had tuition reinbursement so they knew what jobs would be more advantageous for them as early part-time jobs in high school. They were shocked to find some companies that would pay 100% of their tuition costs. We looked at grants, loans, and the FAFSA. Kids and parents both LOVED it.

Then.... our principal retired and our school went into an upheaval. Schedules were changed and we lost the time slot... and the class was gone. I try to work a condensed version of it into the last couple of weeks of the year, but it's not enough time to lay a good foundation. I always tell my students that they need to take high school to prepare themselves to seize opportunities, including financial ones ... because if they don't or can't, someone else is also working their butts off to take it from them. And for a lot of American students in a myriad of circumstances, that's exactly what happens.

It's been an interesting thread.

 

[SC Minnie]

Financial education is hard to teach adolescents. I taught economics to 8th graders a few years ago and almost all struggled with the concepts. Background knowledge just doesn't exist and it's hard to make those connections with the material.

About 10-11 years ago, I was asked to teach an 8th grade quarterly College & Careers class. I wasn't given any curriculum and just told "It's a state requirement. Figure it out." So, I drew upon my own experience.

I was the first person in my family to graduate high school. I joined the military to get money for college and get out of my small town. At the time, the Montgomery GI Bill was "pay $1,200 your first 12 months, get $12,000 for college". Two enlistments later, I got out and started college at age 25 with a family. It took 8 years, three community colleges in two different states, a university, a couple of jobs, more than $12K, but I finished my bachelors debt free at age 33. My daughter kinda followed my example in less time: community college and the same university. However, from my graduation in 2003 to hers in 2013, the tuition had doubled. She lived at home, worked part-time, and we paid for it. Her brother made straight As and took AP/dual credit classes, so I felt like his best chance was for a big merit scholarship. Like most that age, he had big dreams. So, I included them but insisted he apply to local universities as well. He applied at seven schools; interviewed but rejected by Yale, waitlisted by Northwestern, but accepted everywhere else. The local universities offered the most money; he accepted a full-ride from the same local university that we attended.

So, when it came time to develop a curriculum for the College & Careers class, I knew it had to be personal for the kids. I also wanted them to have an idea as they went into high school what they were striving to achieve during their four years and beyond. I also wanted them to have a financial plan to whatever they chose to do. We evaluated their skills/abilities as students. We explored jobs they were interested in. We researched what training/education was needed. How much those jobs paid and the projected demand for them in the future. I shared the vocational paths our high school offers. We explored trade schools; everybody had to pick a job even if they didn't think they were heading that direction. We looked at local trade schools and requirements to get in and costs. We looked at local apprenticeship programs. We looked at the local junior/community college and how they could go there for free. We explored colleges and researched up to 10 dream colleges and 4 local schools of their choice. We looked at GPA and high school class requirements, majors, ROTC programs, merit and sports scholarships offered and especially tuition/fees/room/board costs. We saw the difference costs between the schools and in-state vs. out-of state tuition. We looked at the military and even selected a branch/specialty. We explored military tuition assistance as well as military academies. We filled out college applications, wrote entrance essays, and took abbreviated versions of the ACT, SAT, ASVAB, and a Trade school entrance exam. We researched companies that had tuition reinbursement so they knew what jobs would be more advantageous for them as early part-time jobs in high school. They were shocked to find some companies that would pay 100% of their tuition costs. We looked at grants, loans, and the FAFSA. Kids and parents both LOVED it.

Then.... our principal retired and our school went into an upheaval. Schedules were changed and we lost the time slot... and the class was gone. I try to work a condensed version of it into the last couple of weeks of the year, but it's not enough time to lay a good foundation. I always tell my students that they need to take high school to prepare themselves to seize opportunities, including financial ones ... because if they don't or can't, someone else is also working their butts off to take it from them. And for a lot of American students in a myriad of circumstances, that's exactly what happens.

It's been an interesting thread.

I did something similar with DD when she was heading to HS and trying to figure out her path. We looked up careers she was interested in and the starting pay. We then looked up the cost of an apartment, utilities, she had to decide what kind of car she would drive so car payment or not, how much entertainment cost, etc. That was a huge eye opener.

 

[sam_gordon]

I did something similar with DD when she was heading to HS and trying to figure out her path. We looked up careers she was interested in and the starting pay. We then looked up the cost of an apartment, utilities, she had to decide what kind of car she would drive so car payment or not, how much entertainment cost, etc. That was a huge eye opener.

I know Bill Cosby is persona non grata, but I still think this is one of the best "teaching moments" on tv...

 

[mom2rtk]

Um, nope. We can’t even fund decent K-12 schools across the board.

And as others have already noted, other countries that fund college do not do it across the board. Everyone here has the right to ACCESS higher education through any number of the ways noted on this thread, including loans, for whatever they want to major in. If we’re going to fully fund higher education, are we going to limit who has access? Limit majors to those that are “worthwhile”? Limit what you can major in based on your qualifications?

I can get behind free community college. It’s an appropriate stepping stone, gives students a chance to choose a major, allows time to grow up a bit. But that’s it. Anything beyond that I believe is the responsibility of the student and who needs to have skin in the game. “Having the college experience” does not need to be on the publics dime.

Some states do this already. Students here are able to access 2 years of Community College free of charge if the meet a minimum of qualifications (minimal GPA requirement, attendance requirement and a small amount of community service). I'm continually amazed at the number of students who do not avail themselves of this. We fund this from our state budget. Are we to now pay taxes federally for others to get the same?