Start over VS. IS lenses

geetey

Queen of the Smilies
Joined
Feb 21, 2000
Messages
4,209
As I have mentioned several times on the boards, I have 'shake' issues. I have found that using an IS lens helps me get a good clear shot. However, in my search for a long, fast, IS lens, I have hit budget restraints! (think Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS pricing :eek: )

My dh, aka the backer of my Lens account ;) , asked an interesting question this weekend. So I am coming to the boards to see what your opinions would be...

He was wondering why I don't just start over with a new body (I believe the Pentax K100D is the only body available with IS) so I can buy any type of lens, versus only purchasing IS lens with my Canon. His thought is that the $1600 for the above mentioned Canon lens could probably get me off to a good point again.

I haven't ever held a Pentax. I have used Canon since my film camera. I don't have a lot of lens (17-85 IS, 50mm, 70-300 which I need to replace because it is too slow).

What do you think? Would you start over with Pentax? Stick with Canon IS? Again my budget for this startover would be $1600.
 
Lens-based IS is reputed to be better than body-based IS, but I don't know the physics of it.

You might also want to check out the Sony Alpha SLR range, which I believe has body-based IS.

regards,
/alan
 
If you are comparing the 70-200mm F/2.8 IS Canon lens with the purchase of the K100D do not forget to factor in the price of a Pentax 70-200mm F/2.8 lens(if it exists). And then factor in the cost of replacing your existing canon mount lenses.

Without knowing what Canon DSLR you currently own there might also be other compromises made if going with the entry level Pentax.
 
Which IS is better is often debated, but both systems do work. From what I had seen in the past, it seems to give the advantage to in body at the wide end and in lens for the tele end. I do not know why that is, it is just what I heard.

I do not know if you are going to get off much cheaper switching systems though. About the cheapest lens I can think of in the 300mm max range with a wide aperture is going to be around $1K. By the time you add the body, kit lens, and 50mm lens you are likely going to be over $1,600. I like Pentax and all, but I do not think switching systems is your cheapest option. Have you considered buying used to save a few bucks?

Kevin
 

If you are comparing the 70-200mm F/2.8 IS Canon lens with the purchase of the K100D do not forget to factor in the price of a Pentax 20-200mm F/2.8 lens(if it exists). And then factor in the cost of replacing your existing canon mount lenses.

Without knowing what Canon DSLR you currently own there might also be other compromises made if going with the entry level Pentax.

The only lens I can think of is the Sigma 100-300mm f/4, but the DA* 60-250mm f/4 is supposed to be out in the near future. Both are likely around $1K+ though.

Do not forget the cost of new SD memory as well and batteries. Those likely do not even add up to $75, but it is still an extra cost.

Kevin
 
The only lens I can think of is the Sigma 100-300mm f/4, but the DA* 60-250mm f/4 is supposed to be out in the near future. Both are likely around $1K+ though.

Do not forget the cost of new SD memory as well and batteries. Those likely do not even add up to $75, but it is still an extra cost.

Kevin

I know that Sigma makes a 120-300mm F/2.8 lens that goes for about $2500, and they also make a $900 70-200mm F/2.8 lens(I know they make them in Canon mount, but not sure about Pentax).

but I was not sure if there were any non-third party lenses available in that range and speed. IMO it would not make sense to goto F/4.0 in exchange for IS, I feel it would a be push at best but tend to prefer the higher shutter speeds F/2.8 would give.
 
I currently have the follwing:
  • Canon Rebel XT
  • 17-85mm IS
  • 50mm f1.8
  • 70-300mm (needs to be replaced)
  • CF cards - several Sandisk ultra II 2 gig, 1 4 gig
  • 1 replacement battery
  • 1 wireless remote
Not a ton of stuff, but I understand what you are saying. We are trying to think long term here. The IS lens are always more expensive than non-IS. Since I have MS, the 'shakiness' issue isn't going to go away. DH's thinking is that we take the hit now in order to save long-term. I am honestly not sure which way would be best from a logical standpoint. (forgetting about loyalty ;) at the moment)

I am not opposed to used lenses - just don't have a good resource locally.
 
DH's thinking is that we take the hit now in order to save long-term. I am honestly not sure which way would be best from a logical standpoint. (forgetting about loyalty ;) at the moment)

Well the long term savings or loss really depends on what you plan to buy in the future, but right now spending your set budget of $1600 the most logical thing to do IMO would be buy the Canon 70-200mm F/2.8 IS lens.

Switching to Pentax might work if you are willing to go through the leg work of selling your current gear or becoming a two brand household. But even then I just checked some of the more popular Camera store websites(bhphoto and Adorama) and could not find a Pentax mount lens in the 70-200mm range with a F/2.8 aperture. I do not see switching to a brand that does not cover the range you are looking for.
 
I agree with checking out the Sony, if you shop wisely you can get some great deals on used Minolta lenses, I picked up a Tokina ATX pro 70-200 2.8 minolta mount lens for under 400, it is a really good lens..
 
I agree with checking out the Sony, if you shop wisely you can get some great deals on used Minolta lenses, I picked up a Tokina ATX pro 70-200 2.8 minolta mount lens for under 400, it is a really good lens..

I agree...

Really like the Sony line, but again you need to do the math.
 
Which IS is better is often debated, but both systems do work. From what I had seen in the past, it seems to give the advantage to in body at the wide end and in lens for the tele end. I do not know why that is, it is just what I heard.

From what I have read this is likely because a longer focal length required more IS to achieve the same results- In lens IS is obviously dialed in to match the lens it is installed in- whereas in body IS is supposedly consistent at all focal lengths- making it less effective on the long end.
 
I know that Sigma makes a 120-300mm F/2.8 lens that goes for about $2500...

my weekend sport workhorse!

but if the OP is looking to replace body and glass, i'd make one suggestion - try out both a body based anti-shake system and also shooting with faster shutter speed. generally speaking faster lens (wider aperture) are going to give you a faster shutter speed, and a cleaner image than IS. IS can give you a few stops of correction, however it can't stop action/prevent motion blur.

the 70-200 2.8L (non IS) is a fantastic lens, as is the sigma 70-200 2.8 EX (for considerably less quid than the 70-200 2.8 IS).
 
terry, i forget what you want it for but have you considered using a tripod?or maybe a monopod? being in a similar boat i figured out if i want to use anything over 200( sometimes even 200 is to much) when i am shaking i gotta learn to use my tripod and pan plus i could use my remote( if i could find it)...:headache: :headache: :headache: i wonder if you will run into the same problem even with is at the close to 300 range no matter what is system you use, especially in lower light. i think a monopod is supposed to give you basically the same stability of is ( although if i'm shaky enough, well the monopod shakes too, i need a professional monopod holder/packmule:rotfl:)
ot, hope the shaking at least subsides some for you..what a pain
 
From what I have read (some of it published by Canon, so it is at least a little suspect) a long lens would require more shift than an in-body system can provide. By placing the shift mechanism in the lens it requires less movement, which makes sense if it is located close to the optical center. With less shift it might also be faster.

The best of both worlds might be in-body IS for short lenses and in-lens for longer lenses but I doubt we will see any manufacturers switching camps.
 
Another thing to consider. I have the 70-200 f2.8L IS. It is heavy. I'm not sure how the shaking is affected by weight, but this lens is no feather, that's for sure. I think it is close to 3lb if I'm not mistaken. Just something to consider. I'm not sure that any other brands are lighter, but I can tell you this one is not light.

My Dad has a type of palsy that causes him to shake more the more he uses his muscles. This lens would be terrible for him. I'm not sure what triggers the shakiness with MS.

Since we had DD 8 years ago, we have not done the local MS walk. We did it for about 6 years prior to that. We are thinking of doing it again this year as DD would probably be able to hang with us for the whole thing. We know there is a cure out there. I hope you are doing well and that you find a solution to your camera questions that suits you well.
 
From what I have read (some of it published by Canon, so it is at least a little suspect) a long lens would require more shift than an in-body system can provide. By placing the shift mechanism in the lens it requires less movement, which makes sense if it is located close to the optical center. With less shift it might also be faster.

I have heard the same thing, but I also heard that the point where that occurs is around 500-600mm. If that is true, then it would not affect many people.

I totally agree that the best option is to have both. No system has that yet, but I am sure that proper programming in the firmware could take advantage of it.

Kevin
 
I don't have any data on which system compensates for shake better. There are two advantages to in-lens IS that may or may not be meaningful to you. First, they stabilize the image in the viewfinder. With in-body IS, the stabilization effect is only visible to the camera and not the person looking through the viewfinder.

Second, many in-lens IS systems have panning modes. I don't know that the in-body ones do yet (although I can't think of any reason why they couldn't). To be clear, when panning with an IS lens, it doesn't stabilize at all along the axis of motion. It stabilizes against shake perpendicular to the axis of motion. Even this only works when you are panning horizontally or vertically. If you are panning diagonally, it shuts off entirely.

You might consider the 70-200 f/4 IS to save money at the cost of a stop.
 
Let's see... where to begin. Obviously, IS is hardly a magic bullet that will cure all blurs - you'll generally pick up 2-4 stops. Try shooting with a non-IS lens at twice or four times the normal shutter speed (ie, 1/100th and 1/200th instead of 1/50th) and see if it's enough to stop the shakes. Regardless, there will probably still be situations where IS won't cut it. This especially includes any photos of moving subjects - IS might sharpen up the static objects but you'll get more blur on moving things thanks to the slower shutter speed.

For IS in the body, you can choose anyone other than Canon and Nikon, who both still refuse to put IS in the body (though I'm sure they'll come around one of these years!) All current Pentax and Sony DSLRs have it and the Olympus E510 does as well. Olympus has some of the more interesting lens options (faster zoom lenses than anyone else) but they are very pricey.

In the Pentax line, there is not currently a 70-200mm F2.8 widely available. Pentax had their own very nice 80-200mm F2.8 until 2004, and currently has a 50-135mm (roughly same coverage on a DSLR as the 80-200mm on a 35mm) F2.8, which has ultrasonic focusing and weathersealing. It's $750 at Beach. As was mentioned, they have a 60-250mm F4.0 in their lens roadmap, it'll probably be announced on Jan 24th along with their new DSLRs and other lenses. Sigma did make their current 70-200mm F2.8 in Pentax mount but availability is scarce, but they come up for sale fairly regularly, often around $800-1,000. (The "marketplace" at Pentaxforums is a good place to check, I've bought a few lenses from there.) They have announced an updated version of the lens so hopefully that will have wider availability (and lower price!) Tamron has been promising their own 70-200mm for at least a couple years with no release yet, but based on how good their 28-75mm F2.8 is, I'm anxious to see it available.

My solution was that I just recently bought a used Vivitar Series One (their pro line, very expensive when new) 70-210mm F2.8-4.0 lens in Pentax mount. It's manual focus but otherwise can stand up well against the others, with really nice image quality and a terrific build. And my K100D treats it as a F2.8 through the range, I was taking some 210mm F2.8 photos just the other day with it. The downside is that it's new enough to have an "A" aperture setting (so no need to manually set aperture) but it's not new enough to transmit focal length to the camera, so IS doesn't work so well. Any time you attach a lens that doesn't transmit focal length, the camera lets you choose what focal length it is - but that isn't so helpful when using a zoom! It does work terrifically for prime lenses (and even adds the focal length to the exif data.) Still, I got it for around $150 and I can put up with those quirks for the image quality, solid feel, and fast aperture. Oh, one more negative - the front rotates when focusing, which is a big negative to me - it makes using a polarizer much more difficult. I figure it'll eventually be replaced with a modern 70-200mm F2.8 and I'll be able to resell it for at least what I paid for it, so no harm!

As for in-body vs in-lens... well, like I said above, I think it's only a matter of time until in-body IS is ubiquitous. There are virtually zero negatives, and if C/N want to offer in-lens IS in high-end lenses, it would be trivial to have the camera start enough to disable the in-body IS when using a lens with IS. Having the ability to have IS with every lens is really great. (Especially with a camera as legacy-friendly as the Pentax... I can mount a top-quality 30-year-old Zeiss 180mm F2.8 screw-mount lens on my camera and it'll have IS, just like the 18-55mm kit lens, and the 50mm F1.4, and the Sigma 30mm F1.4, and so on and so forth.) There are also negatives to IS in the body, which are so rarely acknowledged... besides the obvious one (cost for every lens), Photozone.de has found problems with in-lens IS. "During the local lens testing it became obvious that IS/VR lenses tend to suffer from centering defects to a much higher degree than their conventional cousins." There's also an extra piece of glass that the light passes through, which is a negative optically (though most IS lenses are pretty high-end so that's not that big of a deal), whereas nothing is needed for the IS in-body. The big concern for me is reliability... anecdotally, I've heard of more problems with IS systems in lenses than in bodies. (Actually, I've never read of any in-body IS mechanical problems, though I'm sure they have happened.) There's some interesting discussion here (check the comments too) and a zillion other places on the internet too. It's a debate that will rage for a long time to come (probably even after C/N start putting IS in-body!) Ultimately, I think it's mostly picking nits, any IS is better than none at all!
 














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