Stand By Lines and FP+

[DougEMG]

Maybe, but I think that you're being too pessimistic.

Restaurants have been using "virtual queues" (i.e. reservations) for a long time, and the system seems to work pretty well. There are plenty of popular restaurants where you can't get a table if you don't reserve a table weeks or months in advance. Why should rides be any different?

One downside to having everything pre-booked is that since guests do have definite preferences about rides/attractions if no FP+ were available for when they wanted to go, they might just decide not to go to Disney and go somewhere else instead.

 

[ghtx]

Mainly because it's what people expect from an existing park experience.

I wouldn't mind seeing someone open a park that was all virtual lines, as long as there were actually enough activities/experiences while you were "waiting in line" to have fun in between "attractions". If it was the plan from the beginning, expectations are different.

I just don't believe they can efficiently transition an existing park with standby lines to one with no standby lines.

I think you're right. I wasn't arguing that it's going to happen; I was arguing that it could happen, and in particular I was taking issue with a bad argument made by a previous poster.

While I doubt that WDW will ever become a theme park where all attractions must be pre-booked, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to imagine that some attractions will require pre-booking and have no SB queue (TSMM, Soarin', maybe Mine Train when it opens).

To extend my earlier analogy: every meal at CRT must be pre-booked (6 months in advance!), so why couldn't it be the case that every ride at TSMM must be pre-booked? There are plenty of other restaurants and plenty of other rides for guests who don't pre-book.

 

[WillAustin]

I think you're right. I wasn't arguing that it's going to happen; I was arguing that it could happen, and in particular I was taking issue with a bad argument made by a previous poster.

I got it. :

To extend my earlier analogy: every meal at CRT must be pre-booked (6 months in advance!), so why couldn't it be the case that every ride at TSMM must be pre-booked? There are plenty of other restaurants and plenty of other rides for guests who don't pre-book.

I could see it, but would you want to be the CM talking to the family that didn't pre-book TSMM?

 

[ghtx]

I could see it, but would you want to be the CM talking to the family that didn't pre-book TSMM?

Maybe it could be the same CM who currently talks to the families that didn't pre-book CRT?

 

[SOnotLayuh]

We don't normally plan trips 6months out, so I'm worried about the availability. You shouldn't have to book a RIDE at a THEME PARK that far out. I wonder if it means we will never ride TSM again. I won't stand in those lines.

 

[mom2rtk]

Maybe it could be the same CM who currently talks to the families that didn't pre-book CRT?

At least when you find out you can't get into CRT you haven't already paid for the meal.

I find myself wondering now if you'll be able to access the ride reservation system without a ticket already associated with your account. If not, then there will be a big chunk of unhappy campers who don't find out headliners aren't available until it's too late.

At least if you're booking a package, you can check at 60 days out and still have 15 days to cancel with no penalty. Not so for the folks who outright bought tickets somewhere already.

 

[doggydoc]

Maybe, but I think that you're being too pessimistic.

Restaurants have been using "virtual queues" (i.e. reservations) for a long time, and the system seems to work pretty well. There are plenty of popular restaurants where you can't get a table if you don't reserve a table weeks or months in advance. Why should rides be any different?

You think Disney is going to be willing to tell people in advance that they won't be able to ride the headliners when booking a trip? That could drastically reduce attendance. When you book a restaurant you expect to have pretty close to same experience no matter the table at which you sit. You may want one with a view but don't expect it to detract from your meal to the point of not attending if you can't get one. With a virtual queue the headliners would be booked well before the parks reach full capacity making many possible park goers disinclined to go. To put it in terms of your analogy let's say that the restaurant only has a couple tables at which you can order from the whole menu. The rest of the tables you can only order appetizers or desserts or only certain entrees. If you call to book the restaurant and find that the table where your favorite item is served is already booked do you go anyway?

 

[mom2mickeyfan]

You think Disney is going to be willing to tell people in advance that they won't be able to ride the headliners when booking a trip? That could drastically reduce attendance. When you book a restaurant you expect to have pretty close to same experience no matter the table at which you sit. You may want one with a view but don't expect it to detract from your meal to the point of not attending if you can't get one. With a virtual queue the headliners would be booked well before the parks reach full capacity making many possible park goers disinclined to go. To put it in terms of your analogy let's say that the restaurant only has a couple tables at which you can order from the whole menu. The rest of the tables you can only order appetizers or desserts or only certain entrees. If you call to book the restaurant and find that the table where your favorite item is served is already booked do you go anyway?

I agree. we use to go to a restaurant called O'Charley's. They took my favorite dish off the menu so we just don't go anymore. I sure miss it too! Just found out that Applebee's (at least where I live) doesn't offer baked potatoes anymore. I see this limiting the number of times we will be eating there. Who wants mashed potatoes with a steak?!? By the same token, how many would come if they knew beforehand they couldn't ride their favorite headliner?

 

[DVCcurious]

False.

In theory, all rides at all attractions could be pre-booked with FP or FP+ (i.e., no SB line at all). If that was done properly, then no one would wait more than 5 minutes for any ride.

To paraphrase Bill Clinton: I think it depends on what the definition of "wait" is.

Whether you are waiting in a line or waiting on a park bench for your FP+ time to arrive doesn't change the fact you are waiting.

FP+ does nothing to increase the number of rides you get or shorten the time you wait for your ride. You may not have to wait in a line, but is waiting on a busy walkway really any better than waiting in a queue line?

If the park can provide 20,000 rides per hour then nothing about FP or FP+ is going to change the fact that if there are 40,000 people in the park people are going to have to wait to ride the rides.

Restaurants have been using "virtual queues" (i.e. reservations) for a long time, and the system seems to work pretty well. There are plenty of popular restaurants where you can't get a table if you don't reserve a table weeks or months in advance. Why should rides be any different?

When you finish eating do you want to leave the restaurant or do you want to get back in line and eat again?

When you get off Space Mountain do you want to leave the Magic Kingdom or do you want to get back in line and ride again?

The dinner reservation only works because people want ONE meal that night. If people only wanted ONE ride then you could do the same thing with success at WDW. But people want more than one ride

I think you're right. I wasn't arguing that it's going to happen; I was arguing that it could happen, and in particular I was taking issue with a bad argument made by a previous poster.

Bad argument? My argument is: Magic Kingdom can only provide 20,000 rides per hour. No matter what they do regarding FP that will not change the fact that only 20,000 rides are available per hour.

Please explain how my argument is "a bad argument".

 

[Robo]

FP+ does nothing to increase the number of rides you get or shorten the time you wait for your ride. You may not have to wait in a line, but is waiting on a busy walkway really any better than waiting in a queue line?

Disney envisions that you will "wait" while shopping or dining.

 

[dizcrazee]

I can't see how FP+ will possibly make things better, but I know that they study all this thoroughly and I'm hoping that it will be an improvement somehow. I really want to be optimistic because I love WDW, but unfortunately, looking back over the years (I was there the year it opened and many times since), I know there's been a slow and steady decline in many areas. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the powers that be will do whatever is necessary keep the magic going.

 

[DVCcurious]

I can't see how FP+ will possibly make things better

Here's a story that sums up why I believe WDW is going to FP+ and will eliminate the current FP structure.

I was at MK on July 4th 2010. The fireworks just ended and we watched them in Fantasyland. The line for Peter Pan's Flight was "short" at that point (40 minutes). So we jumped in line.

Behind us was a father, mother and two girls about age 6 and 4. As we moved through the queue we could all see the FP people jumping the line in front of us. This father kept saying over and over:

"Damn fastpass. I swear Disney just keeps nickle and diming people. Just because I can't afford to pay more they're making me wait in this line longer than other people. I paid for my ticket, people should not be able to cut in front of me."


I'd imagine this is a VERY common belief among WDW visitors. You know how it feels when you get to the front of the line of Splash Mountain and the CM stops you and lets 55 FP people go past you. If you thought those people paid more for that benefit yet you could barely afford to go to the All Star Resort how would you feel as you stood there watching them go by? I'm going to bet that there will be MUCH fewer FP's dolled out each day via FP+ than the current FP system. So when you get to the front of Splash you may get stopped, but only 10 people will walk past you instead of 55 people. Wouldn't 10 people be much better than 55? Would you feel as bitter about 10 people passing you as 55 people? Of course not. The more people who skip in front of you the angrier you will get.

Disney takes polls all the time. And people's #1 complaint is waiting in lines. FP has given a large number of people the PERCEPTION that others don't have to wait in lines because they paid more and the families who can only afford to go to All Star Music every four years are getting screwed.

In my opinion (i have no basis for this other than my opinion and my business acumen) Disney wants to eliminate the perception of "special people" skipping the line. If they give everyone 3 fast passes per day the standby lines will move steadily forward and there won't be herds and herds of people jumping past you with their fast passes.

From a business perspective Fast Pass has been a failure. The highly educated consumer (the people who visit disboards.com for example) use the system and the average consumer (the people who spend their days worrying about taking the kids to soccer or swimming and don't have time to read easywdw.com) doesn't use the system. The average consumer is aware of the system but believes they are not "included" which leaves a negative impact on the average consumer. Who will then go home and tell all of their friends how Disney isn't worth it unless you're rich enough to afford fast pass. The fact that other parks charge for FP privileges just reinforces the belief that Disney must charge also.

 

[g-dad66]

I was just there on a day with soft opening of Fastpass+. Standby lines were horrible. Amount of people in fastpass line were longer than ever, and even at the turnstile, cast members were taking ALL fastpass people before standby. At Splash Mountain, at the cast member taking fastpasses, our family waited for 40+ people to get thru the fastpass line, and no others were in line, before she switched back to the standby line. No more toggling between the two. I understand the need to take them first, my point is there were just so many more people there! Maybe that is also the result of no longer honoring fastpasses past there end time.

Also found lines that didn't have fastpass and now do, were now much longer (obviously). In general, not overly excited about the changes coming to the parks.

As we drove around the Lake Buena Vista area later that night, we commented on the amount of development still going on. Hotels upon hotels still being built. As long as people fill the rooms, the parks will overflow. A sign of the times, I guess.

Do you recall what attractions you experienced this at? (Attractions which never had regular Fast Pass but now have a Fast Pass+ entrance.)

I'm really curious about the effect on Standby Lines at such attractions, especially from a very limited number of FP+ testers.

 

[doconeill]

Do you recall what attractions you experienced this at? (Attractions which never had regular Fast Pass but now have a Fast Pass+ entrance.)

I'm really curious about the effect on Standby Lines at such attractions, especially from a very limited number of FP+ testers.

I'm curious as well...with such a limited number of guests using FP+ at all, and even fewer still likely selecting those attractions given the lack of tiered limits, AND the fact that most of them can easily accommodate guests I'd expect no noticeable impact at all.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Disney envisions that you will "wait" while shopping or dining.

Exactly!

 

[mom2rtk]

I'm curious as well...with such a limited number of guests using FP+ at all, and even fewer still likely selecting those attractions given the lack of tiered limits, AND the fact that most of them can easily accommodate guests I'd expect no noticeable impact at all.

I've shared my experience before with ETWB during the December test. I'm sure the effect was more pronounced with that one because it has such a low capacity to begin with. But it definitely slowed things way down. But maybe the test in December was larger? As I recall, most folks coming in on the ME on certain days were involved. We just missed because we came in a couple days before the test.

If I were doing any of these tests, I would have chosen the attractions without regular fastpass. But that's only because for the test regular FP stayed intact.

 

[doconeill]

I've shared my experience before with ETWB during the December test. I'm sure the effect was more pronounced with that one because it has such a low capacity to begin with. But it definitely slowed things way down. But maybe the test in December was larger? As I recall, most folks coming in on the ME on certain days were involved. We just missed because we came in a couple days before the test.

If I were doing any of these tests, I would have chosen the attractions without regular fastpass. But that's only because for the test regular FP stayed intact.

I think the test in December was still tiered, so they were forced to choose something other than an E-Ticket, at ETWB I think was in the second tier, and like you said, was very low capacity.

I forget, was that on the list for this test?

 

[mom2rtk]

I think the test in December was still tiered, so they were forced to choose something other than an E-Ticket, at ETWB I think was in the second tier, and like you said, was very low capacity.

I forget, was that on the list for this test?

December was tiered.

I think I saw it on the list this time, but am not 100% certain. I'm just saying even if it wasn't tiered, I would have still chosen it. But only because I could use my park ticket to get FPs for the headliners. Our friends purposely chose ETWB and HM for that reason. I don't remember what else they chose.

 

[Dannek]

I have this EXCEPTIONALLY great idea on how to get guests to stop riding and go into the shops and restaurants.

Every 3 hours, all day long, they simply stop running the attractions and offer discount prices at all restaurants and shops.

"Attention Disney guests... for the next hour, Disney is offering a special price to all guests who'd like to take a MagicBreak for shopping and a snack...
Check the MyMagic Displays around the park (and on your MyDisneyExperience Wireless application) for this hour's MagicDiscounts.
We hope you take advantage of our MagicBreak and enjoy all that Disney has to offer.

(Send my 250 million dollar planning fee- C/O "Robo" at Disboards.com.)

Well hello Mr. K-Mart!.. Blue Light Special much?...

 

[mom2mickeyfan]

Here's a story that sums up why I believe WDW is going to FP+ and will eliminate the current FP structure.

I was at MK on July 4th 2010. The fireworks just ended and we watched them in Fantasyland. The line for Peter Pan's Flight was "short" at that point (40 minutes). So we jumped in line.

Behind us was a father, mother and two girls about age 6 and 4. As we moved through the queue we could all see the FP people jumping the line in front of us. This father kept saying over and over:

"Damn fastpass. I swear Disney just keeps nickle and diming people. Just because I can't afford to pay more they're making me wait in this line longer than other people. I paid for my ticket, people should not be able to cut in front of me."


I'd imagine this is a VERY common belief among WDW visitors. You know how it feels when you get to the front of the line of Splash Mountain and the CM stops you and lets 55 FP people go past you. If you thought those people paid more for that benefit yet you could barely afford to go to the All Star Resort how would you feel as you stood there watching them go by? I'm going to bet that there will be MUCH fewer FP's dolled out each day via FP+ than the current FP system. So when you get to the front of Splash you may get stopped, but only 10 people will walk past you instead of 55 people. Wouldn't 10 people be much better than 55? Would you feel as bitter about 10 people passing you as 55 people? Of course not. The more people who skip in front of you the angrier you will get.

Disney takes polls all the time. And people's #1 complaint is waiting in lines. FP has given a large number of people the PERCEPTION that others don't have to wait in lines because they paid more and the families who can only afford to go to All Star Music every four years are getting screwed.

In my opinion (i have no basis for this other than my opinion and my business acumen) Disney wants to eliminate the perception of "special people" skipping the line. If they give everyone 3 fast passes per day the standby lines will move steadily forward and there won't be herds and herds of people jumping past you with their fast passes.

From a business perspective Fast Pass has been a failure. The highly educated consumer (the people who visit disboards.com for example) use the system and the average consumer (the people who spend their days worrying about taking the kids to soccer or swimming and don't have time to read easywdw.com) doesn't use the system. The average consumer is aware of the system but believes they are not "included" which leaves a negative impact on the average consumer. Who will then go home and tell all of their friends how Disney isn't worth it unless you're rich enough to afford fast pass. The fact that other parks charge for FP privileges just reinforces the belief that Disney must charge also.

2 points to make on this post. Wouldn't it have cost less for Disney to do more to educate them about the current FP system. If you put the words "FREE WITH ALL TICKETS" at the FP machines then it would be very hard to miss. If MORE people use the current FP system then it will automatically correct this idea that the superusers are getting more than their fair share. Just like at DHS...we have never been able to get 3 FPs for TSMM because there are enough others pulling them and it keeps pushing the time back to the point we are unable to get that 3rd FP. Disney didn't have to do that. That doesn't leave a feeling of Disney restricting anyone. That is just natural supply and demand and is fair to everyone.

The 2nd point. The little we have heard from Disney is how great it is going to be to pre-book our favorite rides. How can they advertise this to the masses and not have many FPs in the pool to allow for that pre-booking. Maybe this can be done at MK but would be really hard at DHS and EP. There are too few rides and many would be unable to pre-book any headliners. That wouldn't be good PR for Disney to tell its customers that they can pre-book their favorites and have enough there for them to do it.