Stand By Lines and FP+

[rwdavis2]

Technologically competent? I suggest you use their web site for a few days. It has been deficient for over a decade.

 

[mom2rtk]

I have this EXCEPTIONALLY great idea on how to get guests to stop riding and go into the shops and restaurants.

Every 3 hours, all day long, they simply stop running the attractions and offer discount prices at all restaurants and shops.

You mean that's not what they're already doing? Cuz that would mean the rides were actually breaking down that often............ This can't be good........

 

[Dannek]

Disney implemented FP to get people out of those long waits and into shops and restaurants while they waited.

They seemed to forget that there was a third option - get into other lines. Which is what most guests did.

If the guests didn't get into other lines, the wait in the standby line should have been the same with FP as without - the total capacity of the attraction didn't change.

But given that guests could now occupy two (or more) lines at once, essentially, the standby line times at the major attractions would be adversely affected.

By at least reducing the number of FPs issued, the standby line would move faster. By limiting the number of FP+ that a guest can use, it may in fact make them shorter too, as they won't be occupying multiple lines as much.

It might not work out that way. Although the standby lines would move faster, they could also become longer due to the lack of FP's, thus nullifying the benefit of the faster moving line and resulting in the same wait time..

 

[doconeill]

It might not work out that way. Although the standby lines would move faster, they could also become longer due to the lack of FP's, thus nullifying the benefit of the faster moving line and resulting in the same wait time..

The reduction in FPs is a new factor we really weren't expecting to hear, but like I said, not sure how real that is. But the sentence after the one you quoted also points out that with the number of FP+s used per guest restricted, it can actually reduce the length of the lines. I saved this from a previous post which explains why:

It can be argued that those riding TSM more than once are likely doing so via Fastpass, at least once. Not all, but probably the majority. Some are very likely to be doing it using multiple Fastpasses.

Now, if you can only get one FP+, what happens? Warning...assumptions ahead, but based on observation and logic!!! (No, Doc, don't bring logic into this!!!)

Assumption 1: Regardless if you can get more FP+ in the park, you can still only get one per attraction.

Assumption 2: Those riding TSM with FP/FP+ will not be required to have to choose a FP+ for TSM or something else due to number of FP+ limitations or potential tiering of attractions.

Let's give names to different classes of TSM riders. And see if I can pull together a coherent argument despite interruptions.

The "duplicates". They get multiple FPs through the day for TSM, and ride 2+ times via FP, and potentially via standby as well, although if they do I expect it isn't more than once.

The "fast-and-slows". They ride twice - once standby, once FP.

The "one-and-dones". They only ride once, either standby or FP, but are at least FP-savvy.

The "don't-get-its", those who don't understand FP, and probably still won't understand FP+.

Now, the "fast-and-slows" aren't likely to change at all, since the changes don't affect them as far as this argument goes (they may need to make a choice and give up their TSM FP+ for something else, but lets assume they don't need to make that choice). So we can ignore them.

The "don't-get-its" also aren't likely to change. They are still a constant in the standby lines with their glares.

The duplicates are definitely affected, as they now can't get more than one FP. So what do they do? They can still ride multiple times, but they have to do it via standby. Some will, but I have a feeling most likely only do so because of FP, and won't. So while a few might go standby and increase the line there, others won't. So less FP usage, with a lesser increase in standby usage. This alone would be a standby win as standby users will take the missing FP slots. Advantage: Standby.

Now the "one-and-dones" are also affected. Those that end up in the standby line simply because there are no FPs available after noon, now have the potential to get a FP+ given up by the former duplicates. They likely will fill all those slots again - but then they are taking themselves out of the standby line on a 1-for-1 basis. So although the FP+ line goes back to before, the standby line decreases by the same degree, so it is shorter. Advantage: Standby.

Now of course there could be outliers - former one-and-dones that become opportunistic fast-and-slows now that a FP+ is dangled in front of them, but in the same token some duplicates and fast-and-slows may opt all the way down to one-and-dones. And for each former duplicate that used to ride 3+ times and now drops to 1, there are that many more slots opened for others.

That's why I'm actually seeing this as a potential win for the standby line.

 

[WillAustin]

"We sense that our guests want to interact more with their electronic devices when they are in the parks".

I just shook my head when that quote came out.

 

[ttintagel]

By at least reducing the number of FPs issued, the standby line would move faster. By limiting the number of FP+ that a guest can use, it may in fact make them shorter too, as they won't be occupying multiple lines as much.

Yeah, I think this may be what they're going for. They probably would have gotten a lot of negative reactions if they'd simply cut the number of old-skool FP's you could get. The whole newness of FP+ will probably distract a lot of people from the fact that they're getting a smaller number of passes than they could before.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

That's why I'm actually seeing this as a potential win for the standby line.

If you need this many twists and turns to see a potential win, you need to remember Occam's Razor.

 

[wdwfan22]

I wonder if there were any in the board room suggesting they take the money they would have spent on next gen and add more attractions. This may have given all the stake holders what they were after.

I'm reminded of the part in Jurrassic Park when the character played by Jeff Goldblum says "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

However, I still hope I am pleasantly surprised in the end regardless of my current misgivings.

 

[MAGICFOR2]

Only two things can make standby lines shorter for the major attractions:

* Fewer guests - not happening anytime soon
* More major rides to spread out the crowds - only the mine train ride comes close in the near future

More major rides would help, but I'm sure they will just increase the park capacity to make more money, not really caring about the guest experience, rather than keep the current number of guests happy.

A thought (you can decide if it is horrible) just popped into my mind: FP+ and long standby for CoP.

Now we all have that song going through our heads.

Disney is frankly screwed in terms of having shorter lines. They would have to make more good rides which we all know disney is not willing to do right now or they have to jump prices to 140 a day. I believe a major price jump will not hinder the profits but will thin the parks. It is a matter of time.

I saw several posts about surprisingly thin crowds and uncrowded restaurants this past week - I wonder what that is about?

I have this EXCEPTIONALLY great idea on how to get guests to stop riding and go into the shops and restaurants.

Every 3 hours, all day long, they simply stop running the attractions and offer discount prices at all restaurants and shops.

"Attention Disney guests... for the next hour, Disney is offering a special price to all guests who'd like to take a MagicBreak for shopping and a snack...
Check the MyMagic Displays around the park (and on your MyDisneyExperience Wireless application) for this hour's MagicDiscounts.
We hope you take advantage of our MagicBreak and enjoy all that Disney has to offer.

(Send my 250 million dollar planning fee- C/O "Robo" at Disboards.com.)

Kind of like when you area at a public pool and the Lifeguard blows the whistle for "adult swim."

You mean that's not what they're already doing? Cuz that would mean the rides were actually breaking down that often............ This can't be good........

I never considered this could be the case

 

[KatieCharlotte]

I have this EXCEPTIONALLY great idea on how to get guests to stop riding and go into the shops and restaurants.

Every 3 hours, all day long, they simply stop running the attractions and offer discount prices at all restaurants and shops.

"Attention Disney guests... for the next hour, Disney is offering a special price to all guests who'd like to take a MagicBreak for shopping and a snack...
Check the MyMagic Displays around the park (and on your MyDisneyExperience Wireless application) for this hour's MagicDiscounts.
We hope you take advantage of our MagicBreak and enjoy all that Disney has to offer.

(Send my 250 million dollar planning fee- C/O "Robo" at Disboards.com.)

I don't know about stopping the attractions , but people do like sales. You just double the prices and then mark everything fifty percent off.
How about better, more unique merchandise? Every time we go to Florida, my kids get spending money from relatives and then spend very little of it at Disney because there's nothing they want. When they have bought toys, the quality was very poor.

I'm also surprised they haven't built a larger Star Wars area at DHS along with more product promotion, especially with the new movie plans. My older children are much more interested in Star Wars (and Harry Potter) now than princesses or pirates.

 

[mom2mickeyfan]

When they have bought toys, the quality was very poor.

We have found this also. We won't let our DS get toys from Disney anymore because they always break and after very little use. We get books, CDs, DVDs and shirts now.

 

[figment13]

180 days out I make all ADR's for 10 day trip. now I make all FP+ that I am allowed (3 per day). Now I have arrived for my 10 day vacation???
First thing I have to take out my schedule, must be at this ride and that ride at certain times, must be at specific restaurant at specific time.
Tell me how is this a nice relaxing vacation taking the time to smell the roses as the expression goes.
Maybe I'm dumb, but have been to Disney every year for the last 20+ and have never made ADR's and never used fast pass.
You know what, I have a wonderful relaxing vacation just going with the flow.
I look at all the ambieance and enjoy relaxing in the parks.
Am I crazy or just plain smart?

 

[Purplebaby1216]

180 days out I make all ADR's for 10 day trip. now I make all FP+ that I am allowed (3 per day). Now I have arrived for my 10 day vacation???
First thing I have to take out my schedule, must be at this ride and that ride at certain times, must be at specific restaurant at specific time.
Tell me how is this a nice relaxing vacation taking the time to smell the roses as the expression goes.
Maybe I'm dumb, but have been to Disney every year for the last 20+ and have never made ADR's and never used fast pass.
You know what, I have a wonderful relaxing vacation just going with the flow.
I look at all the ambieance and enjoy relaxing in the parks.
Am I crazy or just plain smart?

Exactly! We are going for the first time ever next month with my two dd (one is 5 and one is 10), my husband, my father, and myself....the guys have made it very clear to me that they do NOT WANT me scheduling ADR's etc etc because they want to stop and eat when they want to and not have to be at a certain park at a certain time etc etc. I did schedule ONE ADR and that was so the girls could have breakfast with the princesses at Cinderella's table half way through our trip. Other then that, we will probably take advantage of fp while in the parks but not by prescheduling everything in advancce.

 

[mom2rtk]

180 days out I make all ADR's for 10 day trip. now I make all FP+ that I am allowed (3 per day). Now I have arrived for my 10 day vacation???
First thing I have to take out my schedule, must be at this ride and that ride at certain times, must be at specific restaurant at specific time.
Tell me how is this a nice relaxing vacation taking the time to smell the roses as the expression goes.
Maybe I'm dumb, but have been to Disney every year for the last 20+ and have never made ADR's and never used fast pass.
You know what, I have a wonderful relaxing vacation just going with the flow.
I look at all the ambieance and enjoy relaxing in the parks.
Am I crazy or just plain smart?

It sort of depends on your faith in Disney to leave enough ride capacity to get a decent number of standby folks through the line every hour. What works on one trip won't work on the next trip if Disney decides to issue more and more fastpasses, making that standby line go slower and slower. There has been a lot of speculation and anecdotal reports that this is exactly what Disney has been doing over the past year.

 

[DVCcurious]

This whole debate (fastpass, no fastpass, FP+) and how to "solve" the wait problem can all be boiled down to simple facts

Magic Kingdom has current capacity of XXXXX rides per hour
(I believe I read that X is 20,000 on easywdw.com our maybe **************.net, but the specific number doesn't matter for this explanation).

If there are 20,000 people in the park then each person will get 1 ride per hour. If there are 40,000 people in the park each person will get 1 ride every two hours. If there are 10,000 people each person gets 2 rides per hour (you get the point).

Now, some attractions (Space Mountain, Peter Pan) are "better" than others (Tiki Room, Hall of Presidents). So some people choose to have fewer rides in a day but at "better" rides. So maybe if there are 20,000 people which means 1 ride per hour per guest some people choose to ride Peter Pan once every other hour and the people who go to Country Bears can also see Hall of Presidents, Stiches Great Escape, and Carousel of Progress in that two hours where the first person only saw Peter Pan.

This is all a supply (# of rides all attractions are capable of pumping out per hour) vs demand (# of people in the park) issue.

FP, FP+, no FP doesn't change this equation. The only thing that will give the average guest more rides per day is greater capacity.

Let's suppose there are 20,000 people with 20,000 capacity. Over 8 hours a guest can ride 8 attractions. Each attraction takes 10 minutes. So that means the guest spends 80 minutes riding and 560 minutes doing X. Disney's idea with FP and FP+ is that X will become "browsing in stores or eating in restaurants". In reality X has become "wait in lines at other rides and try to squeeze 10 rides over 8 hours instead of 8 rides over 8 hours).

The only solution to Supply vs Demand is to increase supply or decrease demand. Until Disney increases the number of rides per hour the average wait per guest won't change. FP, FP+, do nothing to change this reality.

I personally think they should go back to the days before FP. I personally preferred it back then. Yes you always had to wait in a line for anything, but at least the lines were always moving forward. Now standby is horrible. You just stand there for 10 minutes, then you walk forward for 5 minutes, then stand for 10 minutes. Compare your standby wait experience at Big Thunder Mountain vs Pirates or Haunted Mansion. At Pirates or HM you are always moving. It's a much better feeling to be moving forward than to be standing still like you do at BTMRR or Peter Pan.



If I know I'm getting 1 ride per hour I'd prefer the "constantly moving forward" experience of No Fastpass vs the "sometimes I jump the line with my FP but other times I stand there in a horribly hot and uncomfortable line at Peter Pan watching all the FP people cut in front of me" experience.

 

[ghtx]

The only solution to Supply vs Demand is to increase supply or decrease demand. Until Disney increases the number of rides per hour the average wait per guest won't change. FP, FP+, do nothing to change this reality.

False.

In theory, all rides at all attractions could be pre-booked with FP or FP+ (i.e., no SB line at all). If that was done properly, then no one would wait more than 5 minutes for any ride. That's without changing "supply and demand," as you argue. It is done by more efficiently allocating people across rides via FP+, rather than via SB.

Now, in practice this might not work (it certainly wouldn't work perfectly, but nothing ever does). But your argument that it can't even work in theory isn't correct.

 

[WillAustin]

Now, in practice this might not work (it certainly wouldn't work perfectly, but nothing ever does). But your argument that it can't even work in theory isn't correct.

The "virtual queue" theory doesn't translate well into reality. I'm not going too far out on a limb saying they will never, ever reach a point where all rides are pre-arranged, no matter how hard they might try to make that happen.

I don't believe it would work very well even if someone created a theme park from the ground up designed to have no lines, and only used virtual queues across every attraction.

There will always be plenty of people who refuse to be "efficiently allocated".

 

[Robo]

Let's suppose there are 20,000 people with 20,000 capacity. Over 8 hours a guest can ride 8 attractions. Each attraction takes 10 minutes. So that means the guest spends 80 minutes riding and 560 minutes doing X.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[ghtx]

The "virtual queue" theory doesn't translate well into reality. I'm not going too far out on a limb saying they will never, ever reach a point where all rides are pre-arranged, no matter how hard they might try to make that happen.

I don't believe it would work very well even if someone created a theme park from the ground up designed to have no lines, and only used virtual queues across every attraction.

There will always be plenty of people who refuse to be "efficiently allocated".

Maybe, but I think that you're being too pessimistic.

Restaurants have been using "virtual queues" (i.e. reservations) for a long time, and the system seems to work pretty well. There are plenty of popular restaurants where you can't get a table if you don't reserve a table weeks or months in advance. Why should rides be any different?

 

[WillAustin]

Maybe, but I think that you're being too pessimistic.

Restaurants have been using "virtual queues" (i.e. reservations) for a long time, and the system seems to work pretty well. There are plenty of popular restaurants where you can't get a table if you don't reserve a table weeks or months in advance. Why should rides be any different?

Mainly because it's what people expect from an existing park experience.

I wouldn't mind seeing someone open a park that was all virtual lines, as long as there were actually enough activities/experiences while you were "waiting in line" to have fun in between "attractions". If it was the plan from the beginning, expectations are different.

I just don't believe they can efficiently transition an existing park with standby lines to one with no standby lines.