Sports: Deflate-Gate

[JanaDee]

No one is saying that's a defense or that what happened is right. It's a matter of WHO did it, WHO knew about it and HOW/WHEN did it happen.

Your bias is showing. Plenty of Pats fans have said there wasn't anything wrong with what the team did.

 

[TAX GUY]

Actually a number of people on this thread HAVE said that as a defense. That and "other teams do it too" (which is equally bad).

Agreed, and I was one of them, then changed my tune as its NOT a legit reason. An excuse, yes, but not a justifiable reason for it being done. No doubt it done, obviously. Now its a matter of who done it.

 

[declansdad]

My biggest fear is this story goes away and we have a week of Richard Sherman ranting!!!

 

[Airship Ariadne]

The thing is, it doesn't matter if they never are able to figure out WHO did it...if it was Brady, and they CAN prove it, he should be punished, i find it pushed belief that he didn't know...as people like Madden point out, it is unlikely that really is the case, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he isn't a criminal but just a moron, and wasn't involved...if they can't prove he was involved, then he doesn't personally get punished.

BUT, what is already proven is that 11 of the 12 footballs that were entrusted to the Patriots team, and were presented during the game as being legal and valid were under-inflated in violation of league rules. That is a fact. Even if it was UFO deflating them with a deathray...the team should have a protocol to ensure the footballs they used were in good condition.

So the Patriot organization should face punishment for 11 counts of violating league rules. And be under closer watch for the foreseeable future.

The most upsetting part of the whole affair is now I have to cheer for the Seahawks...that is the Patriots most unforgivable crime!

 

[lucky978]

The media is certainly running with this story. How is this the TOP story on NBC nightly news with everything else going on in the world?

Would be nice to hear an official statement from the NFL about the sequence of events instead of all this "He said" crap. But then again...that wouldn't keep the buzz going now would it?

I live in Pat's nation and consider myself a fan. If they are found to be guilty of tampering - come out with the evidence and move on. If not, say that so we can go back to talking about real news.

 

[TAX GUY]

Your bias is showing. Plenty of Pats fans have said there wasn't anything wrong with what the team did.

as well as plenty of non Pats fans saying "what's the big deal".

I still stand behind my original comments of I can't see how it made THAT much of a difference or that it would provide THAT much of an advantage. I honestly and still don't see it. Softer to getter grip and better hold onto, sure, for someone under 5 foot tall and less than 100 pounds with little hands and arms. These guys are monsters in size and strength. A softer ball wouldn't (my opinion) provide an advantage enough to justify National coverage.

 

[Geoff_M]

Anyone can compile stats and manipulate the results to get results they desire (with ANYTHING, not just this). Some will say I'm turning a blind eye or am in denial because I'm a Pats fan and this is against them. That's fine. I do however take EVERY stat and graph with a grain of salt.

I'm not a big fan of the automatic off-handed dismissal of any statistic by saying "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" or "You can make stats prove anything you want", etc. Instead I think a better expression is "You can make a set of data confess to whatever you want it to... if you torture it enough!" This at least obligates the naysayer to explain how the numbers are being abused.

They explained why they they selected non-dome teams for their analysis... It's recognized that controlled indoor environments (no snow, no rain, no cold) make for fewer fumbles. It's an attempt to compare like-for-like... not exactly applying the thumbscrews in my book! And yes, the Pats run more plays, they pointed that out, which adds more interest that even with a heck of a lot more plays, they didn't cough up a ball at home this season.

But you're right, it might just be "nothing" or a mere coincidence... or it might be like back in the 90's when people noticed that some MLB players were hitting balls a heck of a lot further more often than other guys!

 

[TAX GUY]

The thing is, it doesn't matter if they never are able to figure out WHO did it...if it was Brady, and they CAN prove it, he should be punished, i find it pushed belief that he didn't know...as people like Madden point out, it is unlikely that really is the case, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he isn't a criminal but just a moron, and wasn't involved...if they can't prove he was involved, then he doesn't personally get punished.

BUT, what is already proven is that 11 of the 12 footballs that were entrusted to the Patriots team, and were presented during the game as being legal and valid were under-inflated in violation of league rules. That is a fact. Even if it was UFO deflating them with a deathray...the team should have a protocol to ensure the footballs they used were in good condition.

So the Patriot organization should face punishment for 11 counts of violating league rules. And be under closer watch for the foreseeable future.

The most upsetting part of the whole affair is now I have to cheer for the Seahawks...that is the Patriots most unforgivable crime!

If they're watched any closer, they'll be on the inside looking out through Belichick's eyes!

 

[lucky978]

If they're watched any closer, they'll be on the inside looking out through Belichick's eyes!

 

[Airship Ariadne]

If they're watched any closer, they'll be on the inside looking out through Belichick's eyes!

The horror, the horror.


If I could find a clip of Brando saying that, I'd post it.

 

[Jellybass]

The thing is, it doesn't matter if they never are able to figure out WHO did it...if it was Brady, and they CAN prove it, he should be punished, i find it pushed belief that he didn't know...as people like Madden point out, it is unlikely that really is the case, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he isn't a criminal but just a moron, and wasn't involved...if they can't prove he was involved, then he doesn't personally get punished.

BUT, what is already proven is that 11 of the 12 footballs that were entrusted to the Patriots team, and were presented during the game as being legal and valid were under-inflated in violation of league rules. That is a fact. Even if it was UFO deflating them with a deathray...the team should have a protocol to ensure the footballs they used were in good condition.

So the Patriot organization should face punishment for 11 counts of violating league rules. And be under closer watch for the foreseeable future.

The most upsetting part of the whole affair is now I have to cheer for the Seahawks...that is the Patriots most unforgivable crime!

The hole in the argument here is the NFL has never come out and stated the balls were underinflated or by how much (just reports on ESPN). Also, how did the referees measure the psi? They have not stated anything either. Let's stop jumping to conclusions until the proof is out.

 

[TAX GUY]

I'm not a big fan of the automatic off-handed dismissal of any statistic by saying "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" or "You can make stats prove anything you want", etc. Instead I think a better expression is "You can make a set of data confess to whatever you want it to... if you torture it enough!" This at least obligates the naysayer to explain how the numbers are being abused.

They explained why they they selected non-dome teams for their analysis... It's recognized that controlled indoor environments (no snow, no rain, no cold) make for fewer fumbles. It's an attempt to compare like-for-like... not exactly applying the thumbscrews in my book! And yes, the Pats run more plays, they pointed that out, which adds more interest that even with a heck of a lot more plays, they didn't cough up a ball at home this season.

But you're right, it might just be "nothing" or a mere coincidence... or it might be like back in the 90's when people noticed that some MLB players were hitting balls a heck of a lot further more often than other guys!

I'm not completely dismissing the stats and graph you posted. I'm just saying selected data was used, which helps to show the desired outcome. I'm sure there were many other elements that cold have been added that would push those ratios much closer to the other teams. As an example, rather than total offensive plays, only running plays where contact was initiated within the first 5 yards vs after 6 yards or more. Contact with one defensive player vs 2 or more....

 

[TAX GUY]

The hole in the argument here is the NFL has never come out and stated the balls were underinflated or by how much (just reports on ESPN). Also, how did the referees measure the psi? They have not stated anything either. Let's stop jumping to conclusions until the proof is out.

What fun is that? One of two things will happen after all is told by the league. Either the Pats fans will rejoice and say "see, I told ya so" or the naysayer's will say, "see, I told you so..."

 

[Geoff_M]

As an example, rather than total offensive plays, only running plays where contact was initiated within the first 5 yards vs after 6 yards or more. Contact with one defensive player vs 2 or more....

In order for something like that to be a factor, you'd have to believe that there would have to be a meaningful difference in such things across 16 games and across 23 teams.... that's a pretty tall hurdle. But you're right it could be! However, I think the burden would be on the naysayer to demonstrate the difference instead of offering mere speculation.

 

[Geoff_M]

The hole in the argument here is the NFL has never come out and stated the balls were underinflated or by how much (just reports on ESPN).

That's not quite true. The NFL sent a letter stating the facts, as reported, to the team on Monday and the letter was shown to the Boston Globe. Belichick also referred to the notice from the NFL about the situation in his press conference yesterday. This is well beyond a mere ESPN report.

 

[Jellybass]

That's not quite true. The NFL sent a letter stating the facts, as reported, to the team on Monday and the letter was shown to the Boston Globe. Belichick also referred to the notice from the NFL about the situation in his press conference yesterday. This is well beyond a mere ESPN report.

You seem to have an axe to grind, which is fine, people have their opinions. I never saw the letter you mention (which I actually would like to see) But lets remember;

Richard Jewell was absolutely guilty of the Olympic bombings (until it was proved he wasn't).

Rubin Carter was absolutely guilty of murder (until it was proved he wasn't).

And to keep it relevant, the Patriots were absolutely guilty of taping the Rams walkthrough prior to the super bowl (until it was proved they weren't).

There are a million "guilty rush to judgment stories" in history. How about we all wait to see who is responsible and then agree that the person (or people) should be held accountable, which I would whole heartedly agree with.

 

[missbrooke06]

Did anyone think anyone from the Patriots was going to admit taking responsibility for this? Don't believe that the NFL hasn't spoken to Brady, just not realistic. Also very troubling how first Tom Brady states how he prefers the game balls to be, then he states that he can't tell the difference. Which statement do you believe?

This exactly (although I don't find it troubling personally).

 

[Geoff_M]

You seem to have an axe to grind, which is fine, people have their opinions.

Quite the opposite, I've been pretty much sticking to the facts in this case (other than an expression that historically I don't care for the team). I've never expressed an opinion as to any belief that Belichick or Brady had any hand in this matter. I have no clue. But it's not a fact to try and say that this "incident" at this point in time is no more than a rumor being spread by ESPN. Here's the established facts based on information from the NFL that has been distributed internally and what is generally known about the functioning of an NFL game:
- The balls in question were inspected before the game and found to be "in spec".
- The same balls were retested at half time and 11 of the 12 were found to have deflated by 2 PSI and under the allowable limit.
- It's generally recognized, even by Taxguy (let me know if I'm putting words in your mouth), that "something" was done with the balls between those two points in time that would have required the actions of someone.
- In all likelihood, the only persons that would have had access to the balls during that time were sideline officials or team personnel.

 

[Jellybass]

Quite the opposite, I've been pretty much sticking to the facts in this case (other than an expression that historically I don't care for the team). I've never expressed an opinion as to any belief that Belichick or Brady had any hand in this matter. I have no clue. But it's not a fact to try and say that this "incident" at this point in time is no more than a rumor being spread by ESPN. Here's the established facts based on information from the NFL that has been distributed internally and what is generally known about the functioning of an NFL game:
- The balls in question were inspected before the game and found to be "in spec".
- The same balls were retested at half time and 11 of the 12 were found to have deflated by 2 PSI and under the allowable limit.
- It's generally recognized, even by Taxguy (let me know if I'm putting words in your mouth), that "something" was done with the balls between those two points in time that would have required the actions of someone.
- In all likelihood, the only persons that would have had access to the balls during that time were sideline officials or team personnel.

All true, except the only fact is 11 balls were deflated, but no one knows how or who were involved. And again, whoever is responsible should be held accountable, we just don't know who or how. I have never seen any public statement from the NFL on this though, can you link to it (other than stating they are investigating)?

 

[pat fan]

So how do we feel now that the Colt player says he found nothing wrong with the ball, just wanted to keep it as a souvineer from the interception and that it was a Colt's ball, not a Patriot ball?? So the Colt's had deflated balls?