Southwest booted me off my flight!

[Tozzie]

The requirement is that the passenger has to comply with the rules for check-in. The airline cannot eliminate the ability for the passenger to comply with those rules as a way of limiting their liability for denied boarding.

That is your interpretation, my interpretation is different, the only way to know for sure, is for the OP to actually file a complaint with the DOT and see what they say.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Could you please post your source for why you believe that denied boarding can only happen at the airport near the flight time? The federal regulations on denied boarding do not define any time period, so I am curious as to what your source is.

The flight doesn't exist yet. It won't exist until sometime in April. There's nothing tangible to deny - prevent, really. It's somewhat like, "No, I'm not taking the baby to your mother's tomorrow; it's not due until April!"

 

[seashoreCM]

Well I did find this section of the regs,

Exceptions to eligibility for denied boarding compensation.

A passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:

(a) The passenger does not comply fully with the carrier's contract of carriage or tariff provisions regarding ticketing, reconfirmation, check-in, and acceptability for transportation;

The passenger has to actually check in for the flight and they are going to be able to check in for the flight, therefore if you take the rules on face value as written they are not being involuntarily bumped.

The passenger did not fail to comply with the ... provisions regarding ... check in, and accep... e.g. being at the boarding gate fully checked in X minutes prior to departure. Therefore he is not ineligible for denied boarding compensation.

(snip)

The DOT regulations as shown above seem to make it clear that Southwest has an obligation to request volunteers before forcing people to change flights. For some reason, there seems to be a misconception that the customer protections offered within these rules do not extend beyond the immediate boarding process. These regulations make no mention of any time frame.

But did the airline actually ask all passengers for volunteers first?

 

[kaytieeldr]

It's not yet April. The flight doesn't yet exist. Boarding can't be denied from a flight that doesn't exist.

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

It's not yet April. The flight doesn't yet exist. Boarding can't be denied from a flight that doesn't exist.

Based on your response here, I'm guessing you don't have a legal background, which is fine, however you are presenting your opinion as fact.

The flight absolutely does exist as they have both scheduled it and took reservations against it. Southwest has the right to modify its schedule to better allocate their airplanes to meet demand and could legally modify existing reservations based on the federal regulations and their own COC without paying a penalty. They cannot however modify existing reservations arbitrarily because of their own errors without being subject to the consumer protections afforded based on the regulatory requirements.

 

[seashoreCM]

Off topic legal jargon -- Acting capriciously. I don't think airlines may do this regarding cancelling reservations.

The flight doesn't exist yet. It won't exist until sometime in April. There's nothing tangible to deny - prevent, really. It's somewhat like, "No, I'm not taking the baby to your mother's tomorrow; it's not due until April!"

(Whimsically way off topic)
A typical time for a flight to come into existence is 331 days in advance of boarding. However for some airlines including Southwest, the advance time is less.

According to some, notably pro-lifers, (human) babies tend to come into existence around 270 days before birth.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The flight absolutely does exist as they have both scheduled it and took reservations against it.

Scheduled, sure. But today isn't April, and there is no plane at any gate anywhere to transport the original poster from MCO to PHL today on the date she reserved. Boarding is a physical activity. There has have to be a plane and a passenger present for denied boarding to be possibly.

 

[sam_gordon]

Scheduled, sure. But today isn't April, and there is no plane at any gate anywhere to transport the original poster from MCO to PHL today on the date she reserved. Boarding is a physical activity. There has have to be a plane and a passenger present for denied boarding to be possibly.

Under what legal definition? If the OP showed up for the flight, would she be allowed on the plane?

Sorry kaytiee, I disagree with you on this one.

 

[Greysword]

The flight doesn't exist yet. It won't exist until sometime in April. There's nothing tangible to deny - prevent, really. It's somewhat like, "No, I'm not taking the baby to your mother's tomorrow; it's not due until April!"

It's not yet April. The flight doesn't yet exist. Boarding can't be denied from a flight that doesn't exist.

In this case, the OP does have something tangible, the ticket. Although it is in electronic format, the OP could ask for a paper copy; however, their funds were exchanged for a ticket number that permits passage on a specific route (flight number) at a specific time. As such, the OP has a tangible asset (the flight) that the airline is now attempting to change due to their negligence. The ruling in the CFR was designed to protect passengers from this behavior from the airline.

Just because it isn't flight time, doesn't mean the passengers will not sustain damage due to being involuntarily denied boarding on that flight.

But did the airline actually ask all passengers for volunteers first?

That is a good questions, and why I mentioned it in my post.
- WN called the OP and stated they were forcing the change. (could be considered asking)
- The OP said No to teh request and stated they wanted to keep the same flight.

At this point, WN should have called other passengers to ask for volunteers, based on the ruling in the CFR. However instead, the WN representative simply stated the passenger had no choice and forced the flight change.
- This would be in compliance with the pronouncement only if the OP was the very last passenger contacted, thus becoming the first passenger to be involuntary removed from the flight.
- While possible, this would be a great coincidence, and I doubt WN is willing to produce evidence that all other ticketed passengers were contacted unless pressed in court or they receive a records request from the FAA.

To the OP, it may seem as though the thread is being hijacked, but this is an important discussion, as it goes to the rules airlines must follow and the flying public's knowledge of them. While we are far enough out from the flight, many people do not know the CFR 250 exists, which is important if they are at the airport being denied boarding by the airline.

In summary, I premise the OP does have a tangible asset in the form of a ticket for the flight. Southwest Airline (WN) is likely not in compliance with the Flyer's bill of rights, as they involuntarily denied boarding to the OP and did not produce the proper compensation for this action. It will be interesting to see if WN send written notification of the denial. Finally, others can get hosed due to not knowing the rules, which we are attempting to learn/review.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Under what legal definition? If the OP showed up for the flight, would she be allowed on the plane?

Sorry kaytiee, I disagree with you on this one.

Well, she wouldn't be allowed on the original flight because she accepted the change. At that point, she will have been denied boarding. Until then, no. The combination of plane+passenger+departure date must be present at the airport (gate, really) for denied boarding to be possible.

 

[Greysword]

Well, she wouldn't be allowed on the original flight because she accepted the change. At that point, she will have been denied boarding. Until then, no. t be present at the airport (gate, really) for denied boarding to be possible.

I completely agree with this. Since the vouchers were excepted, WN has a claim. This is why the topic is excellent. many of our fellow DISers don't know the pronouncement exists, nor that the DOT recently decided to increase the penalty fees instead of denying the process of overbooking completely.

Many times, if you have access to the regulations, we should prevail with the gate agents, or at least, we know there is recourse.

The combination of plane+passenger+departure date must be present at the airport (gate, really) for denied boarding to be possible.

I still do not agree with this, as I have been looking but can not find anything that states this.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Yes, but without the sugar it's gonna taste horrible.

If I'm handed lemons, it better be in the form of Limoncello.

Agreed ... but it is Best to know what you are entitled

Before you accept/agree to a offered settlement.

This would be an example of the difference between a frequent flyer and a casual flyer.

Possible experience/knowledge to hold out for the better offer.

FlyerTalk ... YMMV

 

[lurkernj]

In this case, the OP does have something tangible, the ticket. Although it is in electronic format, the OP could ask for a paper copy; however, their funds were exchanged for a ticket number that permits passage on a specific route (flight number) at a specific time. As such, the OP has a tangible asset (the flight) that the airline is now attempting to change due to their negligence. The ruling in the CFR was designed to protect passengers from this behavior from the airline.

Just because it isn't flight time, doesn't mean the passengers will not sustain damage due to being involuntarily denied boarding on that flight.

That is a good questions, and why I mentioned it in my post.
- WN called the OP and stated they were forcing the change. (could be considered asking)
- The OP said No to teh request and stated they wanted to keep the same flight.

At this point, WN should have called other passengers to ask for volunteers, based on the ruling in the CFR. However instead, the WN representative simply stated the passenger had no choice and forced the flight change.
- This would be in compliance with the pronouncement only if the OP was the very last passenger contacted, thus becoming the first passenger to be involuntary removed from the flight.
- While possible, this would be a great coincidence, and I doubt WN is willing to produce evidence that all other ticketed passengers were contacted unless pressed in court or they receive a records request from the FAA.

To the OP, it may seem as though the thread is being hijacked, but this is an important discussion, as it goes to the rules airlines must follow and the flying public's knowledge of them. While we are far enough out from the flight, many people do not know the CFR 250 exists, which is important if they are at the airport being denied boarding by the airline.

In summary, I premise the OP does have a tangible asset in the form of a ticket for the flight. Southwest Airline (WN) is likely not in compliance with the Flyer's bill of rights, as they involuntarily denied boarding to the OP and did not produce the proper compensation for this action. It will be interesting to see if WN send written notification of the denial. Finally, others can get hosed due to not knowing the rules, which we are attempting to learn/review.

No hijacking considered this has been highly informative for me, as well as others, I'm sure

 

[Casemily]

Info below taken directly from wn contract of carriage. Maybe the DOT would rule differently, but I'm guessing based on the explanation in 3) (i) they are able to circumvent denied boarding due to the passenger not able to "present himself at the appropriate time and place...", since the flight is for a date in the future. Just my understanding.



3)Conditions for Payment of Compensation to Passengers Involuntarily Denied Boarding due to an Oversale. Subject to the exception in Section 4 below of this Article, Carrier will tender to a Passenger the amount of compensation specified in Section 5 of this Article, provided that:
(i) The Passenger holds a Ticket, including a Zero Fare Ticket, for confirmed reserved space and presents himself for Carriage at the appropriate time and place, having complied fully with Carrier’s requirements as to ticketing, checkin, and acceptability for transportation in accordance with this Contract of Carriage; and
(ii) Other than for reasons set forth in Article 6, above, or when resulting from substitution, for operational or safety reasons, of an aircraft having a lesser seating capacity than the aircraft originally scheduled, Carrier is unable to accommodate the Passenger on the flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space, and such flight departs without the Passenger.
(4) Comparable Transportation. The Passenger will not be eligible for compensation if Carrier offers comparable air transportation, or other transportation used by the Passenger at no extra cost, that, at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger's next stopover or, if none, at the airport of the Passenger's final destination no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight or flights.

 

[kaytieeldr]

(i) The Passenger holds a Ticket, including a Zero Fare Ticket, for confirmed reserved space and presents himself for Carriage at the appropriate time and place,

Because the departure date has not yet arrived, it's impossible for any passenger on this flight to meet the Denied Boarding criteria.

 

[Lewisc]

OP accepted the voucher in exchange for changing his flight. Probably a "done deal".

We can speculate as to what would have happened if the OP politely just said no thank you. I'm happy with my flight, I suggest you contact other passengers. I'll be at the gate ready to board flight XXX on XXX.. The CSR might have gone on to another passenger. The CSR might have sent the OP an email confirming the new flight without the OP agreeing to anything.

Bumping happens when the airline oversells and more passengers then expected show up at the gate.

You're not entitled to denied boarding compensation if your flight is changed as the result of a schedule change. The airline can change the flight number and move you to a completely different flight. You're not entitled to denied boarding compensation if the airline substitutes equipment and the aircraft has fewer seats. It sounds like reservations were accepted based on Southwest aircraft, many of the AT aircraft have fewer seats then the Southwest planes.

This was not a typical "oversell". This was a mistake. I don't know what compensation, if any, passengers are owed if the airline pro-actively changes your reservation weeks before your flight.

 

[lurkernj]

OP accepted the voucher in exchange for changing his flight. Probably a "done deal".

We can speculate as to what would have happened if the OP politely just said no thank you. I'm happy with my flight, I suggest you contact other passengers and I'll be at the gate ready to board my flight on XXX. The CSR might have gone on to another passenger. The CSR might have sent the OP an email confirming the new flight without the OP agreeing to anything.

Bumping happens when the airline oversells and more passengers then expected show up at the gate.

You're not entitled to denied boarding compensation if your flight is changed as the result of a schedule change. The airline can change the flight number and move you to a completely different flight. You're not entitled to denied boarding compensation if the airline substitutes equipment and the aircraft has fewer seats. It sounds like reservations were accepted based on Southwest aircraft, many of the AT aircraft have fewer seats then the Southwest planes.

This was not a typical "oversell". This was a mistake. I don't know what compensation, if any, passengers are owed if the airline pro-actively changes your reservation weeks before your flight.

Op here. Just to clarify, I did tell them I wanted to keep the flight and not be bumped as I was meeting BFF at the airport to drive home together (different flights 30 min apart). I asked if they could ask other passengers first and was told no they couldn't. I was told they were moving me to another flight and that I'd recieve $200 voucher, never was I asked if I was ok with this, even though I expressed my displeasure.

I didn't get into all the detail of the call since this thread took on a life of it's own, but in fact, I told her I wanted to talk to BFF before deciding which flight to come home on, since my decision affected BFF. She gave me a phone number to call back on.

While I was on the phone with BFF, I received an email that my flight was cancelled and my points were put back in my bank. I quickly hung up with BFF and called the number I was provided before I ended up with no flight at all. When I got someone on the phone, she told me I was moved to the 9pm flight and should have gotten a confirmation. When I looked back at my email, there it was. BFF and I had already decided I should come home on the 9pm, however I didn't think it was cool of them to move me before I called back, but again, no one asked my opinion So I never actually accepted anything, never said ok, I was just told what was what.

Like I mentioned before, this really isn't a huge deal for me, and I'm not looking to pursue this any further, they made it clear more than once that I cannot get on the 7p flight, and BFFs flight is now sold out of economy seats, so I can't get on there either, so we'll just deal with it.

 

[seashoreCM]

My long standing advice is for the passenger to politely decline the proposed change, not "ask" for or about anything, and hang up. Particularly if the proposed compensation, a voucher with a time limite, might not be useful. This eliminates the question of whether the passenger "accepted" the change at that time.

And to assume and to take the stance that the airline may not reschedule a passenger off of a flight that still exists and where any connections in the itinerary still have enough time.

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

Because the departure date has not yet arrived, it's impossible for any passenger on this flight to meet the Denied Boarding criteria.

While I appreciate the many contributions you have made in various dicussions here, I believe you are completely wrong on the legal interpretation of Denied Boarding as stated in the DOT regulations. The DOT regulations do not define a specific time period, yet you are continuing to suggest that a specific period exists by inferring that the flight doesn't exist yet or that the passenger can't check in because of the length of time between today and the date of the scheduled flight.

While the DOT regulations state: The Passenger holds a Ticket, including a Zero Fare Ticket, for confirmed reserved space and presents himself for Carriage at the appropriate time and place, having complied fully with Carrier's requirements as to ticketing, check in, and acceptability for transportation in accordance with this Contract of Carriage - The carrier may not legally present an undue challenge to any of those actions and then hold the customer liable for failing to meet the requirements. In this case, WN is preventing the OP from checking in by effectively cancelling their ticket without a suitable cause (change of equipment, weather delays, etc.). While we can understand that the issue was likely caused by a computer programming error, that type of error in not a suitable cause for denying boarding according to the regulations.

 

[Lewisc]

While the DOT regulations state: The Passenger holds a Ticket, including a Zero Fare Ticket, for confirmed reserved space and presents himself for Carriage at the appropriate time and place, having complied fully with Carrier's requirements as to ticketing, check in, and acceptability for transportation in accordance with this Contract of Carriage - The carrier may not legally present an undue challenge to any of those actions and then hold the customer liable for failing to meet the requirements. In this case, WN is preventing the OP from checking in by effectively cancelling their ticket without a suitable cause (change of equipment, weather delays, etc.). While we can understand that the issue was likely caused by a computer programming error, that type of error in not a suitable cause for denying boarding according to the regulations.

The Passenger won't have a ticket, WN is cancelling the ticket and re ticketing the passenger on an alternate flight. This is similar to what happens every day when an airline makes a schedule change. Show up for the earlier flight and you'll be told to wait for "your" flight.

Change the flight number and call it a schedule change. Change the flight time by a few minutes, give it a new flight number and move passengers. Some airlines do that when they cancel a flight. They want the ability to put some passengers on a flight which is already booked so they cancel everyone on both flights. Passengers who need the earlier flight to make a connecting flight might get put on the earlier flight.

Claim the flight was booked assuming WN equipment was being used. There is now "change of equipment, to the AT aircraft. This might actually be true, I'm not sure if WN could claim this if it wasn't true.

edited to add My point is WN could have made the change in a way that allowed it to make the change without owing the customer any compensation, other then allowing a cash refund. We don't know if WN took care of the fine print. The general rule is an airline can move you, in advance, from one flight to another flight for a variety of legitimate reasons without owing you any compensation.