Southwest booted me off my flight!

[Shelly F - Ohio]

What flight did that boot you off of?

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

There's no denied boarding here, for that matter. Can't be. We're talking about an April flight.

§ 250.2a
Policy regarding denied boarding.
In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall ensure that the smallest practicable number of persons holding confirmed reserved space on that flight are denied boarding involuntarily.


§ 250.2b
Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.

(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.

The DOT regulations as shown above seem to make it clear that Southwest has an obligation to request volunteers before forcing people to change flights. For some reason, there seems to be a misconception that the customer protections offered within these rules do not extend beyond the immediate boarding process. These regulations make no mention of any time frame.

 

[keishashadow]

OP - it is appreciated to receive the information as to the the issue you had. It's perfectly understandable to be disappointed. glitches are expected but nobody wants it to happen to them.

I suggested you call SWA again and voice your displeasure...did you?

curious about two other things if you'd like to share:

1) did you go the AT site to see if the original flight is still available to book direct?

2) did you take a look at the other flights that day to see if any worked better for you? even if they are more expensive 'point's wise', they would likely accommodate you with a switch.

 

[lost*in*cyberspace]

I understand, but I've NEVER had an airline, force me to eat THEIR mistake. This isn't a schedule change or flight cancellation.

You must not fly very often. Airlines overbook every day. They give away your assigned seats. They cancel and reschedule flights. They misdirect luggage. They have mechanical problems. Yes, it's annoying, but stuff happens, especially with an airline merger. So much complaining about a minor issue!

 

[nhmommy]

I suggested they ask someone else, as they weren't offering a convenient option for me. Plenty of people would be very happy with the offer, why not ask? Normally I would be jumping for joy, but since BFF is the one who is mostly affected by having to sit around and wait, I would have preferred not to switch.

I normally find southwest to be very customer friendly, this was just a surprise that they weren't willing to attempt to keep me on the flight when I said I didn't want to switch and explained the reason for not wanting to switch.

YOu could also try to call SW and see if they will contact BFF's airline to change the flight airlines usually have relationships with each other and try to help in situations such as weather and what not they may be able to get her airline to wave the fee.

 

[Karlzmom]

1.5 hours is not a terrible amount of time to wait. I wouldn't have a problem with it. Have you talked to your friend? I bet they won't mind. Have an awesome trip!

We received our credits from Southwest in mail in the amount of time they said. (not from a cancelled flight but he horrid way they handled it) (another story all together lol) Enjoy those credits!

Agreed. No need for your friend to rush off the plane, then take a leisurely stroll to a non-moving restroom and maybe get a cup of coffee...an easy hour and a half.

 

[lurkernj]

After reading the DOT denied boarding compensation stuff that was mentioned, I saw that I have the right to request a check instead of a voucher, so I'm going to call tomorrow and see if I can get a check, then maybe ill just cancel my flight and book through us air on her flight (currently $174). That would pay for my flight and a checked bag if needed.

If for some reason this doesn't work, we'll just suck it up and deal. BFF wasn't upset, I think I'm more bothered as it just doesn't seem fair to her (and I'm actually tagging along on her work trip, so she might never invite me again,)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll update after.

 

[ibob52]

Agreed ... but it is Best to know what you are entitled

Before you accept/agree to a offered settlement.

This would be an example of the difference between a frequent flyer and a casual flyer.

Possible experience/knowledge to hold out for the better offer.

FlyerTalk ... YMMV

 

[seashoreCM]

If for some reason this doesn't work, we'll just suck it up and deal. BFF wasn't upset, I think I'm more bothered as it just doesn't seem fair to her (and I'm actually tagging along on her work trip, so she might never invite me again.

At this juncture what would she like to have you do?

For involuntary bumps the airline must proactively tell you that you can receive cash compensation after which you can select either the cash or whatever they offered other voluntarily or involuntarily bumped passengers. Which to me means that if they don't tell you then you can go back and bite the apple again.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Based on everything in the CoC and this thread, this is neither denied boarding (can only happen at the airport near flight time) nor, technically, an involuntary bump. The flight is still more than a month away. The poster who referenced the tv show "Airline" probably recalls episodes where groups of passengers were bumped from oversold flights and got vouchers, not cash.

This was a unique situation where merging two reservation systems allowed seating/space that was already purchased by passengers to be purchased a second time by more passengers.

 

[lurkernj]

Ok, I called and spoke with customer relations and explained the situation and was told they could not issue me a check, as this was not denied boarding, which can only happen at the gate.

I asked if the amount was negotiable and was told no that this was a set amount given to all passengers affected by this specific glitch. She did offer me any other flight that was available that day (on SW or Airtran), and none of them worked out any better, so I'll just keep it the way it is.

It really is not a big deal, I'm not willing to call and speak to supervisors etc as it's just not that big of a deal to me or to BFF. And I was just kidding about her not taking me again, she's not that petty.

For the poster who wanted to know which flights. It is my flight home from MCO to PHL.

 

[rlduvall]

Sometimes you have to make lemonade out of lemons. There is nothing the OP can do to change it so......therefore.....lemonade!

Yes, but without the sugar it's gonna taste horrible.

 

[goofy4tink]

Yeah, a change can affect numerous schedules, not just mine. So, it's a big deal to me. I'm not booking a flight, just hoping to arrive the same day.

But this is exactly what CoC will tell you. Sure, you can book a particular flight and seat, but there is no way to be 100% sure that you will be on that particular flight, in that specific seat on departure day!!! Yes, most of the time, it will happen exactly as you booked. But, there are plenty of times when flights change, or they are overbooked. And in this case, with two airlines merging, it was bound to happen!!
In all reality? A 2 hr difference isn't a huge deal. SW was good enough to give lots of advance notice. So much better than the night before!!!

I fly SW a lot...and I have never had an issue like this. I have never been bumped, and never have been called to change my flight. So far, so good. It has happened with Delta before. And we have had an instance where a JB flight was cancelled while dh was driving to the airport!!! That one was fun!

A year or so ago, my dd and I had a flight on Jetblue...for early in the morning. It was one of the few times that our arrival time was important. We got to the airport (Logan) by 5:30am, for our 8am flight...we like to be able to relax a bit. Well, we got on the plane at 7:30, and sat there for about 45 mins. About 8:20, they took us off the plane, and told us there was a mechanical issue. Now, I'm very happy to be taken off a plane that has an issue...don't get me wrong. But, they had to bring in a different plane. And by the time one got there? It was now close to noon!!! We left Logan at the time we should have been landing in Orlando!! And of course, we had someplace to be, which we had to miss!! And what did we get from JB? Dd and I each got a $50 credit. Big deal!! Oh, and free movies.

 

[Minnesota!]

I would have jumped at this chance! We are always hopeful that they will ask for people to be bumped - would love the travel credits!

OP - sorry it isn't going as smooth as you hoped, but 1.5 hours is nothing...enough time for your friend to use the bathroom, grab her luggage and read for a bit. If I were her, I would grab a drink and a snack on the way, and then just sit and decompress for a bit!

 

[Greysword]

It really is not a big deal, I'm not willing to call and speak to supervisors etc as it's just not that big of a deal to me or to BFF. And I was just kidding about her not taking me again, she's not that petty.

Lurker, thank you for posting this, as it is an area where those without an understanding can get burned.

For the rest of the population that may wander in...

The Federal rules governing this is 14 CFR 250. The government set up a set of rules regarding what an airline is liable for should a person get bumped from a flight due to their overbooking.

Ok, I called and spoke with customer relations and explained the situation and was told they could not issue me a check, as this was not denied boarding, which can only happen at the gate.

I asked if the amount was negotiable and was told no that this was a set amount given to all passengers affected by this specific glitch. She did offer me any other flight that was available that day (on SW or Airtran), and none of them worked out any better, so I'll just keep it the way it is.

They were not correct, as this is most definitely an involuntarily denied boarding situation. Based on the rules, they are required to find volunteers first, which they did not do properly, since you were not asked if you would volunteer. However, I would not be correct if you happened to be the very last person they contacted asking for volunteers and you became the very first person on the list to be denied boarding within the same phone call.

As for the rule, they are required to issue you cash or a check for the denied boarding compensation unless you choose to accept a voucher. They are not allowed to simply make a voucher the only offer if they are in violation of the boarding provisions in the CFR.

The only provision I saw in the CFR that WN could fall back on is the time limit. If they are able to reschedule you so the arrival time to you connection is the same or earlier or if you arrival at the final destination is within one hour, then they are not required to compensate the bump. otherwise, it needs to be in cold hard cash (or check) based on a specific formula found in 250.5.

Based on everything in the CoC and this thread, this is neither denied boarding (can only happen at the airport near flight time) nor, technically, an involuntary bump. The flight is still more than a month away. The poster who referenced the tv show "Airline" probably recalls episodes where groups of passengers were bumped from oversold flights and got vouchers, not cash.

This was a unique situation where merging two reservation systems allowed seating/space that was already purchased by passengers to be purchased a second time by more passengers.

Katiee, the Contract of Carriage is irrelevant in this situation, except for the purposes of outlining how they determine in what order people will get bumped. The CFR clearly does not state any time restrictions on the involuntary denial of boarding, and the assumption that it has to be at the gate is incorrect.

A purchased and confirmed ticket is the contract that WN is attempting to break. By all definitions in the CFR, the airline is required to find volunteers first and compensate based on federal guidelines if the OP does not agree to volunteer.

While the OP is within her right to not pursue it further, especially if she feels she is getting fair compensation, others may need this information. Personally, I would have been fine with it until the WN rep started talking about their legal limits.

Kurkernj, I would suggest you may try another angle. Call WN back and ask them if your friend can get on the later flight with you, in lieu of a voucher. That is if you are traveling together. Then, she can just ignore the US ticket. I would also see if you get written confirmation, and if not, file a claim with the FAA on behalf of the flying public. Many data points lead to action.

As a side, not, it seems WN has pulled this stuff before:

Southwest Fined $200K for Involuntary Bumping

The Department of Transportation (DOT) hit Southwest with a $200,000 fine for improper procedures related to involuntary bumping.

<snip>

In the DOT report, the agency says Southwest failed to "tender cash or an immediately negotiable check for the appropriate amount of compensation on the day and at the place the denied boarding occurred to eligible passengers who were denied boarding involuntarily ... pay eligible passengers who were denied boarding involuntarily the appropriate amount of denied boarding compensation specified in the rule ... inform eligible passengers offered travel vouchers of the amount of cash compensation that otherwise would have been due to them ... [and] furnish eligible passengers who were denied boarding involuntarily with a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation."

 

[sam_gordon]

Kurkernj, I would suggest you may try another angle. Call WN back and ask them if your friend can get on the later flight with you, in lieu of a voucher. That is if you are traveling together.

With all due respect, and I respect you knowledge on all this, I don't "get" the suggestion. Yes, I understand it's an option, but, assuming the friend paid for the US Air ticket, why throw money away? If SW puts the friend on the later flight, BFF is out whatever she paid for the US Air ticket, AND the OP would be out any credit (or money).

 

[Greysword]

With all due respect, and I respect you knowledge on all this, I don't "get" the suggestion. Yes, I understand it's an option, but, assuming the friend paid for the US Air ticket, why throw money away? If SW puts the friend on the later flight, BFF is out whatever she paid for the US Air ticket, AND the OP would be out any credit (or money).

Yes, the cash flow would be neutral from the point before WN made the denied boarding call, but the gain is convenience of have both parties on the same flight, thus minimizing the wait time and gaining a preferable seat mate. basically, the cost for this convenience is the $200 voucher.

Is this worth it? Only the OP can say, but it might be for me depending on my feelings in the circumstance and my future travel plans.

In the end, I was just thinking out loud

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

Based on everything in the CoC and this thread, this is neither denied boarding (can only happen at the airport near flight time) nor, technically, an involuntary bump. The flight is still more than a month away.

Could you please post your source for why you believe that denied boarding can only happen at the airport near the flight time? The federal regulations on denied boarding do not define any time period, so I am curious as to what your source is.

The Contract of Carriage does permit an airline to change your flight to anytime during the original date of scheduled travel. However, those changes cannot be arbitrary and must follow the exceptions adopted by the federal government. In this case, the airline operator is changing a confirmed reservation without having a qualifying exception that is permitted under the federal regulations.

 

[Tozzie]

Could you please post your source for why you believe that denied boarding can only happen at the airport near the flight time? The federal regulations on denied boarding do not define any time period, so I am curious as to what your source is.

The Contract of Carriage does permit an airline to change your flight to anytime during the original date of scheduled travel. However, those changes cannot be arbitrary and must follow the exceptions adopted by the federal government. In this case, the airline operator is changing a confirmed reservation without having a qualifying exception that is permitted under the federal regulations.

Well I did find this section of the regs,

Exceptions to eligibility for denied boarding compensation.

A passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:

(a) The passenger does not comply fully with the carrier's contract of carriage or tariff provisions regarding ticketing, reconfirmation, check-in, and acceptability for transportation;


The passenger has to actually check in for the flight and they are going to be able to check in for the flight, therefore if you take the rules on face value as written they are not being involuntarily bumped.

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

Well I did find this section of the regs,

Exceptions to eligibility for denied boarding compensation.

A passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:

(a) The passenger does not comply fully with the carrier's contract of carriage or tariff provisions regarding ticketing, reconfirmation, check-in, and acceptability for transportation;


The passenger has to actually check in for the flight and they are going to be able to check in for the flight, therefore if you take the rules on face value as written they are not being involuntarily bumped.

The requirement is that the passenger has to comply with the rules for check-in. The airline cannot eliminate the ability for the passenger to comply with those rules as a way of limiting their liability for denied boarding.

Check-in in this case refers to passengers who fail to check-in as they become excluded from the protected class.