Southwest and large customers

[SteveMouse]

Wouldn't the most simple (and cheapest) solution to this be that you just make sure he is seated next to the rest of his family? If the main concern that an airline would have is the comfort of his seatmates, I would assume your family wouldn't mind being in close quarters for a few hours. I admit that I don't fully understand why airlines make some of the rules that they do, and if there are safety issues that I'm not thinking of then obviously this would not be a viable option; but I would hope that unless someone complains (and I can't imagine family complaining), they wouldn't single him out for being "Pooh sized".

SW (and most/all other airlines) don't sell you a specific seat on the plane, just a seat. They won't guarantee that a family of group would sit together. Especially because of the way SW boards (open seating), it would create problems.

 

[AaronInWI]

SW (and most/all other airlines) don't sell you a specific seat on the plane, just a seat. They won't guarantee that a family of group would sit together. Especially because of the way SW boards (open seating), it would create problems.

Understood. I've flown Southwest 1/2 dozen times and never had issues sitting next to the rest of my travel party. I just make sure I check in online at the 24-hour mark, or as close to it as possible, so that I can get a decent boarding number. In reality, buying a second seat wouldn't solve the problem either then because there's no guarantee that he'd end up with an open seat next to him.

 

[NotUrsula]

So what would stop anyone from purchasing an extra seat so they can have an empty seat next to them and then request the refund? I'm 6' 255 with very broad shoulders and would love to not be crammed up against someone else, but I would never consider saying I need an extra seat, because I don't.

While "ethics" is indeed a good answer, the real one is "revenue". If the FA sees you not physically occupying that extra space, the airline will force you to give it up so that it can go to a standby revenue passenger.

I'm short and on the pudgier side of average for a woman. Seatbelts fit me very comfortably with at least 8 inches or so to spare, so by most airlines' definition I don't "need" an extra seat. However, when I fly internationally I almost always try to purchase one just for the space, because 7 hours in coach makes me rather claustrophobic, and business class usually costs more than 10x what the coach fare does.

You don't get the cost of the second seat refunded on int'l carriers, but they still more often than not force me to accept a refund if there are any standby passengers on the list, because if that person is willing to pay more than I paid, they profit by selling the seat to the standby passenger.

 

[NotUrsula]

Understood. I've flown Southwest 1/2 dozen times and never had issues sitting next to the rest of my travel party. I just make sure I check in online at the 24-hour mark, or as close to it as possible, so that I can get a decent boarding number. In reality, buying a second seat wouldn't solve the problem either then because there's no guarantee that he'd end up with an open seat next to him.

Actually, there is. If you purchase a second seat under your own name in advance, you get a blue-sleeve preboard, and you also get a "Reserved seat" placard to be placed in the second seat until the FA collects it after takeoff. That's the guarantee of contiguous seating, and buying that second seat in advance is the only way to get it.

 

[rwdavis2]

Actually, there is. If you purchase a second seat under your own name in advance, you get a blue-sleeve preboard, and you also get a "Reserved seat" placard to be placed in the second seat until the FA collects it after takeoff. That's the guarantee of contiguous seating, and buying that second seat in advance is the only way to get it.

Correct. If you purchase 2 seats you get 2 seats. Why would they give it away if you already paid for it?
When I was at my higher weight I considered buying 3 seats for the 2 of us. Mainly because I'm wide in the shoulders vs. backend.

 

[seashoreCM]

Actually, there is. If you purchase a second seat under your own name in advance, you get a blue-sleeve preboard, and you also get a "Reserved seat" placard to be placed in the second seat until the FA collects it after takeoff. That's the guarantee of contiguous seating, and buying that second seat in advance is the only way to get it.

You might not even need to show the "reserved seat" placard. When you sat down you would be visibly using part of the second seat.

 

[cadale]

Thanks for the answers everyone.

He does not seem to have a problem with JetBlue's seats but they are an inch wider. By all means the family has no problem seating with him but since SW doesn't do assigned seats we aren't sure if we would all end up together.

He never uses a seatbelt extender and he is about 5'9" and carries most of the weight in his abdomen. He does have wide shoulders (while I think they are wide).

We may end up sticking with JetBlue since we usually fly them but SW is cheaper and flys direct from our home city rather than having to fly to JFK and transfer.

 

[brettb]

Thanks for the answers everyone.

He does not seem to have a problem with JetBlue's seats but they are an inch wider. By all means the family has no problem seating with him but since SW doesn't do assigned seats we aren't sure if we would all end up together.

He never uses a seatbelt extender and he is about 5'9" and carries most of the weight in his abdomen. He does have wide shoulders (while I think they are wide).

We may end up sticking with JetBlue since we usually fly them but SW is cheaper and flys direct from our home city rather than having to fly to JFK and transfer.

So Southwest is less expensive and is a non-stop flight?

Why not read the FAQ on Southwest's site and book an extra seat for him? If I'm reading it correctly, you'll have to request a refund but you'll get the money back whether he uses the seat or not. AND he'll get to pre-board. (Does anybody else know if family gets to preboard with somebody who has a blue pre-board sleeve that NotUrsula mentioned?)

 

[kaytieeldr]

Wouldn't the most simple (and cheapest) solution to this be that you just make sure he is seated next to the rest of his family? If the main concern that an airline would have is the comfort of his seatmates, I would assume your family wouldn't mind being in close quarters for a few hours

Southwest's very reasonable theory is that even your family members are entitled to the complete seat for which each paid.

Does anybody else know if family gets to preboard with somebody who has a blue pre-board sleeve that NotUrsula mentioned?

There's no really valid reason for a whole family to accompany any blue-sleeve passenger - just one to help those who need assistance. Most Customers of Size wouldn't need the extra help, so wouldn't need even one person - much less the whole family.

 

[brettb]

There's no really valid reason for a whole family to accompany any blue-sleeve passenger - just one to help those who need assistance. Most Customers of Size wouldn't need the extra help, so wouldn't need even one person - much less the whole family.

If the customer of size preboards, is the *** and his family out of luck as far as sitting together if the remainder of his party has lousy boarding positions? I know it's wrong/prohibited for one person to do EBCI and save seats for the remainder of their party. It seems to me that this situation is a bit different from that, though.

 

[lost*in*cyberspace]

If the customer of size preboards, is the *** and his family out of luck as far as sitting together if the remainder of his party has lousy boarding positions? I know it's wrong/prohibited for one person to do EBCI and save seats for the remainder of their party. It seems to me that this situation is a bit different from that, though.

What does *** mean?

There is no rule against saving seats on WN.

If it's that important to sit together, then don't pre-board, board with your family. Problem solved.

 

[brettb]

What does *** mean?

There is no rule against saving seats on WN.

If it's that important to sit together, then don't pre-board, board with your family. Problem solved.

The *** was an autoreplacement of each of the first letters of Customer Of Size. I have no idea what's naughty about the abbreviation for cosine. (Even Urban Dictionary produces meager "naughty" results for it, one in Persian and the others are quite a stretch and relatively low in popularity compare to "short for because" and "cosine.")

Huh! I learned something new! After googling, it seems that in addition to not having a rule against saving seats Southwest encourages customers to work things out among themselves. Gladiator style!

 

[delilah]

I have actually had the experience of being the third person in the row where my row mates were both people who wouldn't have been able to sit comfortably with the seat divider down. Had I been in the middle seat, I would have been obliterated. But, I had the aisle seat, which gave me some breathing room, although the person next to me was sort of on top of me, just a little. At least I didn't bounce around in the turbulence. Now, the very first thing I do when I get onto the plane is put down the seat divider.

Not sure what to do in that circumstance. I don't think that there was an extra open seat on that plane, and I needed to get home to go back to work on Monday.

 

[seashoreCM]

I have actually had the experience of being the third person in the row where my row mates were both people who wouldn't have been able to sit comfortably with the seat divider down. Had I been in the middle seat, I would have been obliterated. But, I had the aisle seat, which gave me some breathing room, although the person next to me was sort of on top of me, just a little. At least I didn't bounce around in the turbulence. Now, the very first thing I do when I get onto the plane is put down the seat divider.

Not sure what to do in that circumstance. I don't think that there was an extra open seat on that plane, and I needed to get home to go back to work on Monday.

You get up* and go see a flight attendant before departure. If the flight attendant fails to find you an empty seat then you ask for a conference with the captain and the ground complaint resolution officer. You must be willing to accept any other seat. If the flight is full, now the chances are then that they will ask for volunteers or will have one of the larger passengers next to you take the next flight.

It is correct for bump compensation to be paid in this situation even though the flight goes out with fewer heads than headrests or a standby got on and was not ferreted out first for taking another flight.

* Better that your conversation not be within earshot of the larger passengers.

 

[NotUrsula]

FYI: Just so that you all won't drive yourselves crazy about the abbreviation for cosine, the reason that it is on the stoplist has to do with a commonly used slang phrase for "nonsense", the first word of which is nearly the same as the brand name for a brightly-colored rubber clog shoe popular with Disney tourists (and also with chef Mario Battali.) Sorry if that is oddly obscure as an explanation, but I don't want to skirt too close to the rule about trying to fool the stoplist.)

IME, if a customer of size is travelling with family and has purchased the add'l seat, immediate family will normally be allowed to pre-board with that passenger. SWA defines immediate family as spouses/SO's and minor children; they will include parents only when the blue-sleeve passenger is a minor. Bulkhead seats are not an option for parties such as these, because the armrests in those rows do not lift.

For those who feel that they need extra room because of height, please note that passengers who board with a blue sleeve will not be allowed to occupy an exit row. If you are tall enough that this is really an issue (normally, on SWA that will mean taller than 6'4"), then you can specifically ask the gate agent to be allowed to preboard so that you can sit in a bulkhead seat or exit row because of your height. Most of the time if the aircraft is boarding empty, SWA will allow this to get you into the exit row as long as the extra-tall person is NOT travelling with anyone under age 15 in the party. (They are very strict about not allowing anyone responsible for the well-being of children to sit there, because they feel that it conflicts with the volunteer's responsibility to assist other passengers in the event of an emergency evacuation.)

 

[jsilvers]

Most of the time if the aircraft is boarding empty, SWA will allow this to get you into the exit row as long as the extra-tall person is NOT travelling with anyone under age 15 in the party. (They are very strict about not allowing anyone responsible for the well-being of children to sit there, because they feel that it conflicts with the volunteer's responsibility to assist other passengers in the event of an emergency evacuation.)

It has less to do with what Southwest feels and more to do with the federal regulation that generally prohibits passengers responsible for "caring for small children" (a term which isn't specifically defined) from sitting in the exit row. See 14 C.F.R. 121.585(b)(7)(i).

 

[NotUrsula]

It has less to do with what Southwest feels and more to do with the federal regulation that generally prohibits passengers responsible for "caring for small children" (a term which isn't specifically defined) from sitting in the exit row. See 14 C.F.R. 121.585(b)(7)(i).

No, actually, what I'm speaking of has more to do with company policy. You are absolutely correct that the federal regulation is the reason for the rule, but IME, SWA is the only US domestic carrier that so strictly interprets the rule that they won't take your word for your ability to be a good doo-bee if the FA is aware that ANYONE in your party is under age 16.

Most other airlines will allow a parent to sit alone in an exit row if that parent assures the FA that the children will be cared for by the other parent who is sitting with said children. IME, SWA will not. If there is even a young teen in your party and the FA notices it, you will be told that you can't sit in the exit row, no matter how many other adults in your party are sitting with your kids.

Their reasoning for this is their conclusion that, regardless of your best intentions, a parent's overwhelming instinct is to always try to reach a child (even an older child) in an emergency, which means that when the lights go out, they don't trust your good intentions to stay put and help total strangers instead of your kids.

FWIW, simulation tests done by the UK equivalent of the FAA (the CAA) have proven this theory to be correct -- kids tend not to panic and will follow the FA's instructions (even younger ones, as long as they have been in some kind of school setting), but parents uniformly will NOT do what they are told to do if they cannot see or touch their children when the order is given. The UK tests determined that the average age cutoff (age of the child) at which parents' panic reflex lessened seemed to be 13, so they instituted a rule that does not allow children age 12 or under to be seated further than "arm's length" away from the accompanying adult.

 

[dawnball]

Most other airlines will allow a parent to sit alone in an exit row if that parent assures the FA that the children will be cared for by the other parent who is sitting with said children. IME, SWA will not. If there is even a young teen in your party and the FA notices it, you will be told that you can't sit in the exit row, no matter how many other adults in your party are sitting with your kids.

Yup. It's a very strict interpretation. They don't appreciate it when you offer to demonstrate that the parent next to the child can hoist said child and chuck her through the cabin to the parent in the exit row, either.

 

[jsilvers]

You are absolutely correct that the federal regulation is the reason for the rule, but IME, SWA is the only US domestic carrier that so strictly interprets the rule that they won't take your word for your ability to be a good doo-bee if the FA is aware that ANYONE in your party is under age 16.

Actually, a quick survey of other U.S. carriers finds that at least several have much the same policy; if a passenger is traveling with a child, the passenger can't sit in the exit row, with no stated opportunity for seeking an exception.

• American: "Are you an adult traveling with a child under 15 years of age or another passenger who requires your care? NOTE: The passenger will not qualify, if these passenger types are seated anywhere on the aircraft." See http://www.aa.com/i18n/agency/Booking_Ticketing/Booking/exit_row_procedures.jsp&locale=es_ES.
  
• United: "Passengers traveling with infants and children under 15 years of age may not be seated in exit rows." See http://www.united.com//web/en-us/content/travel/specialneeds/infants/default.aspx?Mobile=1.
  
• AirTran: "For safety reasons, passengers must be ... Not traveling with an infant, children or pets." See http://www.airtran.com/faq/q/can_i_...x?tt=Seat+Assignments&rt=index_faqs&nav_id=85. (Note that this policy predates its acquisition by Southwest.)

In contrast, Alaska Airlines does make an explicit exception to the exit row prohibition if "a second parent is seated elsewhere with the child." See http://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel-info/policies/seating-exit-row.aspx. But that appears to be atypical.

 

[CPT Tripss]

The *** was an autoreplacement of each of the first letters of Customer Of Size. I have no idea what's naughty about the abbreviation for cosine. (Even Urban Dictionary produces meager "naughty" results for it, one in Persian and the others are quite a stretch and relatively low in popularity compare to "short for because" and "cosine.")

Huh! I learned something new! After googling, it seems that in addition to not having a rule against saving seats Southwest encourages customers to work things out among themselves. Gladiator style!

Things no one will tell you. Some people equate your "customer" c with "circle" and "size" s with "sarcasm" and of simply is of.

Google may be your friend.