Song of the South/Splash Mountain

[Grumpy3]

Clotho....regarding OT...I haven't seen the movie you reference but was wondering if they discuss what caused the last global warming that ended the last ice age (about 10,000 years ago) and are they able to document how much impact humans are having this time versus only mother nature causing the last one?

Regarding Song of the South; it's entertainment and it's unfortunate that a corporation gets to decide what's acceptable for us to see (I know it happens every day but that doesn't make it okay); I'm actually more offended by the racist, derogatory filth that is displayed in music videos today, but I respect the rights of those who find it entertaining, I just don't watch them or support companies that sponsor those channels when possible.
Just my two cents worth!

 

[kmk1180]

Clotho,
(sorry I don't know how to quote only part of message)
I don't want to get into a political debate because that would be OT.
My point is SotS is most accurate than most so called documentaries today. Because last time I checked a documentary is supposed to tell
you the truth, not (no matter how politely you say it) LIE to prove a point.
In that Gore claims scientists say Global warming causes more stronger hurricanes. Things change, scientists now say that's not true.
Much like Gore's film, people have changed their minds on how to treat people since the era of SotS.
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be shown today. That was history of the south. Having racists characters in a movie taking place in that era is an accurate portrayal. And people should watch the movie to be reminded of that. Not pretend it didn't happen.

As for Disney not wanting to "sell" it. Maybe you missed the part where Splash Mountain is one of the most popular attractions at MK. They definately are selling it. And unless your clueless you know where the story comes from so the subject always up. It seems untill they face it it won't go away, thus they are always going to have their "foot in it."

The number of replies on this subject seems to support that.
I agree with you about the extra. Release the movie, have an extra of a documentary (one with facts) about racism in the south and how slaves, even, freed slaves, were treated.

 

[disneyjunkie]

As for Disney not wanting to "sell" it. Maybe you missed the part where Splash Mountain is one of the most popular attractions at MK. They definately are selling it. And unless your clueless you know where the story comes from so the subject always up. It seems untill they face it it won't go away, thus they are always going to have their "foot in it."

The only part of the movie that we see in the ride is the animation. Why is the rest needed?

They can keep the animation and keep the original soundtrack. Both will tie in perfectly with the ride. The rest serves no purpose as far as the ride is concerned.

 

[Stitchless]

Anyone remember the silhouette of the frog in the rocking chair in the queue to Splash Mountain? He was telling a story to two other child characters I think. You didn't see them, only heard their voices. I saw it last in '92 I think. It was a nice touch, too bad it's not there anymore.

 

[hawkeyesparks]

The only part of the movie that we see in the ride is the animation. Why is the rest needed?

They can keep the animation and keep the original soundtrack. Both will tie in perfectly with the ride. The rest serves no purpose as far as the ride is concerned.

You create an interesting question. Here's my problem with that. To say that the live action part is so offensive that we must remove it, is to say in my opinion that we must hide, or just forget about how African-Americans were treated post civil war, and in the SEgregated 20th century. It would be like saying let's not watch a movie about the Japanese Interment camps of WWII because now we know how wrong that was, Instead the discussion over this will create a new knowledge and understanding among our young and older people helping us not to repeat the same mistakes again.

I think the same thing applies to SoS. To delete those sections as if they never happened is to act as if they never happened. I say, leave it in, and from that create opportunities through documentries, or discussions so that our young people will see a real example of just how different times were then, and maybe we won't repeat them again.

p.s. Disney has already done this to a certain degree. I have a lot of the Disney Treasures collections, and in some of the short cartoons with Pluto and Mickey, their are some stereotypes in them that are no pc today, and before they are shown, Leonard Maltin comes on and explains the stereotype and how wrong it is, and says how important it is for us see them in their proper context. Now if they can do that with the shorts, why can't they do it with SoS?

 

[Robo]

Anyone remember the silhouette of the frog in the rocking chair in the queue to Splash Mountain? He was telling a story to two other child characters I think. You didn't see them, only heard their voices. I saw it last in '92 I think. It was a nice touch, too bad it's not there anymore.

The frog himself (basically the Uncle Remus role) is still there DURING the ride.
He is still spinning his yarns (to your left side) as you ride up the very first lift-hill after leaving the loading area.

I have him on a video that I shot last time we were there.

(I'm not talking about the animated silhouette in the latter part of the queue, which may still be there, AFAIK.)

 

[disneyjunkie]

You create an interesting question. Here's my problem with that. To say that the live action part is so offensive that we must remove it, is to say in my opinion that we must hide, or just forget about how African-Americans were treated post civil war, and in the SEgregated 20th century. It would be like saying let's not watch a movie about the Japanese Interment camps of WWII because now we know how wrong that was, Instead the discussion over this will create a new knowledge and understanding among our young and older people helping us not to repeat the same mistakes again.

I think the same thing applies to SoS. To delete those sections as if they never happened is to act as if they never happened. I say, leave it in, and from that create opportunities through documentries, or discussions so that our young people will see a real example of just how different times were then, and maybe we won't repeat them again.

p.s. Disney has already done this to a certain degree. I have a lot of the Disney Treasures collections, and in some of the short cartoons with Pluto and Mickey, their are some stereotypes in them that are no pc today, and before they are shown, Leonard Maltin comes on and explains the stereotype and how wrong it is, and says how important it is for us see them in their proper context. Now if they can do that with the shorts, why can't they do it with SoS?

Because it isn't needed.

The lessons taught in the stories can be conveyed without insulting/offending a large number of guests who are spending thousands of dollars to vacation at your resorts.

Based on the explosion of advertising I'm seeing/hearing in black publications and urban radio lately,(WDW and DVC) Disney isn't going to do anything that may make these visitors spend their money else where.

 

[Robo]

Because it isn't needed.

The lessons taught in the stories can be conveyed without insulting/offending a large number of guests who are spending thousands of dollars to vacation at your resorts.

Based on the explosion of advertising I'm seeing/hearing in black publications and urban radio lately,(WDW and DVC) Disney isn't going to do anything that may make these visitors spend their money else where.

So, you are discounting and dismissing the amazing and appealing performances of the fine character actors in this film and, instead, lobbying to retain only the animated segments with the likes of the tar baby and exaggerated uneducated southern drawls ?

To discount, relegate to the trash heap, and deny the importance of the exceptional skills of the on-camera human actors is shocking to me.

 

[disneyjunkie]

Sorry but Anyone who would be insulted or offended by Song of the South , or any Movie based in a period of History that they did not like is an ignorant moron! It is a Movie made for entertainment.... In a time when every tom dick and harry wasn't worried about political correctness ... thats it! anyone that reads anything more into it or makes anything more out of it -- is 10x more racist than anyone who had any part in the original production of the movie.

Maybe Disney should remake Birth Of A Nation. It's based on history and many found it highly entertaining. You know before all this PC garbage got in the way of GOOD movie making:thumbsup (where's that puking smilie)

When did I say the people who wrote/produce the movie were racist? When did I call anyone a racist? Why would you call anyone who disagrees with you on this a racist?

So, you are discounting and dismissing the amazing and appealing performances of the fine character actors in this film and, instead, lobbying to retain only the animated segments with the likes of the tar baby and exaggerated uneducated southern drawls ?

To discount, relegate to the trash heap, and deny the importance of the exceptional skills of the on-camera human actors is shocking to me.

I'm not discounting anything. I just don't believe that the full movie is needed as a tie in with the ride.

 

[Robo]

I'm not discounting anything. I just don't believe that the full movie is needed as a tie in with the ride.

By promoting the removal of the live-action scenes, you are disrespecting, and dismissing the importance of the work of some fine actors.

These are some of my favorite scenes and characters in all of Disney's live action films.

I want them to be seen by others who can appreciate the work.

When Uncle Remus soothes the great sadness of the two small children with one of his tales,
that scene, especially the warmth of James Baskett, moves me in a way so many films of today cannot.

 

[disneyjunkie]

By promoting the removal of the live-action scenes, you are disrespecting, and dismissing the importance of the work of some fine actors.

These are some of my favorite scenes and characters in all of Disney's live action films.

I want them to be seen by others who can appreciate the work.

We're never going to agree and that's fine.

 

[Micca]

Regardless of what happens with TSOTS, maybe Disney should create a new movie with some of the animated characters. Perhaps another feature could be created using the mountain as the theme. The characters are really cute, and I'm sure the creative minds at Disney could come up with a story that wouldn't have to have any racial overtones.

 

[ireland_nicole]

There are many issues in my oppinion in relation to this thread:

1. There were many movies made that perpetuated stereotypes and provided a very skewed view, particularly into the 60's -however, most of those were not marketed as childrens films. I for one am very careful about what my 5 y/o watches, b/c he cannot yet seperate fantasy from reality. I would consider combining viewing of the film with an educational opportunity for teens/adults; but to take the view that allowing children to freely view racist material (because it was mistakenly considered culturally appropriate at the time) when they cannot differentiate, and are still developing core value systems, is incredibly frightening and sad.

2. Disney, or any company for that matter, has every right to choose what material they will sell. They are not deciding for us, they are deciding for themselves. Something every company that makes or sells a product does every day.

3. At the risk of sounding rude, this thread clearly illustrates the myriad of opinions, some uneducated and dangerous, that are held in our current society. Perhaps choosing not to add more fuel to the fire is not an altogether bad idea.

 

[JenM]

p.s. Disney has already done this to a certain degree. I have a lot of the Disney Treasures collections, and in some of the short cartoons with Pluto and Mickey, their are some stereotypes in them that are no pc today, and before they are shown, Leonard Maltin comes on and explains the stereotype and how wrong it is, and says how important it is for us see them in their proper context. Now if they can do that with the shorts, why can't they do it with SoS?

Exactly! I have those collections too, and what you see in some of the shorts are almost cringe-worthy. But the introduction is just there to remind everyone of the time it was made and how far we've come.

The cartoons weren't meant to offend...it was just acceptable at the time. It's like how my grandmother would refer to an Asian actress on TV as "that Chinee girl" or an African American as "that colored fella," leaving me ready to climb under the couch in embarassment. She wasn't trying to be offensive, but it was just how things were when she was younger. Thankfully things have changed since then.

I think Song of the South deserves a DVD release, but I also understand that Disney has to be very careful about how it's released and why they've been reluctant to do so. I think if we see it, it will be part of the WDT collection or something marketed to collectors instead of a mass market release. That's the only way I think it will work.

And I think deleting the live action sequences would be a huge mistake. People who want this DVD want the entire movie, they know what the movie is, and obviously understand the content. It just wouldn't be fair to chop up the movie, especially when Disney has already released cartoon shorts that could be considered just as offensive.

As far as Splash Mountain...most kids I know just care about the big drop and getting wet. I don't think any of them realize it's from a movie.

 

[Buzz Litebeer]

So why, in the few years pre-1992, would Disney theme a feature attraction with a 1946 story that is "too racist" for us to even watch these days?

Back in the 80s, Michael Eisner decided to take a tour of Imagineering in Glendale. Naturally, Imagineering wanted to "look busy" so the Imagineers pulled out all sorts of blue-sky concept models out of mothballs and scattered them all over the place. One of those concept models was for the "Zip-A-Dee River Run", a log flume attraction based on "Song of the South". When Eisner showed up he had his 14 year old son with him. His son liked the ZADRR model, so Eisner greenlighted the project... with one change. He ordered the attraction be renamed Splash Mountain because (no joke) the film "Splash" was a big hit for Disney and thus the word "Splash" had positive connotations in most peoples' minds.

This is covered in more depth in Jason Surrell's excellent book "The Disney Mountains: Imagineering at it's Peak", available now at Amazon.com.

It truly amazes me how stupid Disney can be at times.

I don't think it's stupidity. I think it's a case where Disney is so big that frequently the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

First of all, let me ask, why is everyone saying it isn't available here. I just bought one about a year ago. I don't remember what source I used to purchase it (oldtimers disease) but I am pretty sure it was through one of the Disney boards that I frequent. If it was copied they did a great job, and the DVD cover looked pretty "official" to me.

Pirates are getting their products to look more and more polished every day.

Why Disney decided to create the attraction when they did, I do not know. However, I think it is worth mentioning that the Brer stories are not Disney originals. They were stories told by slaves and written down in the late 1800's by Joel Chandler Harris. According to Wikepedia, Harris was a white man who was born to poor parents and left home at 13 to become apprentice to a newspaper publisher and plantation owner and it was on the plantation that he 1st heard the Brer stories. Boy, I didn't mean to sound so much like a teacher!

Interesting sidenote: the "Br'er Rabbit" stories are nothing more than stories about the african spider trickster god Ananzi with the names changed. Back in the 1800s, slavers didn't like the slaves telling stories about their pagan gods -- but stories about Brother Rabbit and Brother Fox were just fine (yes, "Br'er" is a contraction of Brother - or, more appropriately, it's JCH's attempt to capture the dialect of former slaves in the american south).

Uncle Remus was the wisest character in the movie, and the villians were the rotten little redneck-inbred boys. Seriously, people get their panties in a bunch over the most ridiculous things.

I think what got "their panties in a bunch" was Uncle Remus preferring life as a slave to life a free man.
(NOTE: this is certainly the case in the original Joel Chandler Harris stories. I'm not sure if this is mentioned or not in Disney's film; it's been years since I last watched it.)

As far as I can tell there is nothing racist about the attraction itself. If anybody sees such a thing in it, that's a new one on me.

That's because the racist elements -- like the Tar-Baby, for example -- were altered and/or removed (in Splash Mountain the Tar-Baby has become a honey-filled beehive).

 

[Buzz Litebeer]

we just got it for DD on DVD a few months ago, I believe my DH got it on ebay, I don't remember how much he paid for it (wasn't $50 I'm sure but was more than $20). DD loves brair rabbit and all those stories so DH bought it for her, she only watched it once though, the boy dies I believe and she got quite upset. I asked DH if he didn't read these things before he bought them He said "but it's a disney movie"

That reminds me of another classic Disney film called "Old Yeller" ...

 

[Buzz Litebeer]

I believe he (James Baskett) was the first African-American male to receive an Oscar.

He was -- although it was an honorary Academy Award and was given to him in 1948 -- two years after the film premiered.

 

[tinkerbell 766]

we just got it for DD on DVD a few months ago, I believe my DH got it on ebay, I don't remember how much he paid for it (wasn't $50 I'm sure but was more than $20). DD loves brair rabbit and all those stories so DH bought it for her, she only watched it once though, the boy dies I believe and she got quite upset. I asked DH if he didn't read these things before he bought them He said "but it's a disney movie"

I don't think that Johnny (the boy) dies. He is certainly gored by a bull but recovers.
This is one of my favorite Disney films and living in the UK, I am lucky enough to own a copy.
Whatever Disney's reasons for 'shelving it', I am glad that they did if it has the potential to offend people. Disney are in the market of providing magic and joy to all and I understand their decision.
That said, my 8 year old loves the movie and it has been a useful tool in educating him about about the slave culture (both in the US and here in the UK) and the lessons society has learnt (or should have learnt) from it.
I believe the ride stands up by itself (it is one of the most popular in MK). Uncle Remus stories are still sold in books in the US. I bought a copy for my nephew in the shop located at the exit of SM just last year. He loves it. A lot of moral lessons can be learnt from Brer Rabbit and friends.
I agree that you certainly get more enjoymet out of the ride if you are familiar with the stories, but S of the S is not the only sorce of these

 

[Todd&Copper]

Anyone who is really that worried about racial stereotypes should contact BET and ask them to stop showing crappy 80's and 90's black sitcoms that portray blacks as clowns with no sense. I find that far more offensive than a "period piece" movie [and a lot more difficult to explain to a child].

 

[centurythree]

Anyone who is really that worried about racial stereotypes should contact BET and ask them to stop showing crappy 80's and 90's black sitcoms that portray blacks as clowns with no sense. I find that far more offensive than a "period piece" movie [and a lot more difficult to explain to a child].

Thanks, but I'll leave that sort of thing to people who actually watch BET. I think that if a significant portion of their audience woke up tomorrow and found themselves offended by whatever shows you're referring to, those shows would be pulled immediately.