Sometimes being a teacher sucks.....

[torinsmom]

This probably isn't pc but why don't school districts have separate schools for those who don't speak English? They could be taught the basics and English and then could be mainstreamed into regualr schools. This way, their non proficiency in English wouldn't pull down the scores for the rest of the school.

I would say a separate class for a few months to really learn the basics of the language would be a good start. I don't think it is fair to throw these kids into classes where they don't speak English and teachers do not speak their language. Last year, we had a little boy who would cry and cry because he had never been away from his mom and he had no idea what we were saying to him. We had to get another student to translate for us constantly. It was very sad for him, frustrating to us and distracting to the rest of the class. I can't imagine 4 or 5 of this type of student in my class at once.

 

[FireDancer]

I would say a separate class for a few months to really learn the basics of the language would be a good start. I don't think it is fair to throw these kids into classes where they don't speak English and teachers do not speak their language. Last year, we had a little boy who would cry and cry because he had never been away from his mom and he had no idea what we were saying to him. We had to get another student to translate for us constantly. It was very sad for him, frustrating to us and distracting to the rest of the class. I can't imagine 4 or 5 of this type of student in my class at once.

Surely this isn't some new problem that has just propped itself up. At some point in the past a vast population of people were first generation Americans and many came from countries that didn't speak English. My grandfather was a first generation American born to two Sicilian parents who knew barely enough English to get buy. My great grandma died at 99 in 1998 and she still spoke with a heavy accent and more often then not in Italian when speaking to my grandpa. He was a very good student from what I was told by my grandma and mother. What did previous generations do? If he were still alive I would ask him but he is not.

 

[torinsmom]

Surely this isn't some new problem that has just propped itself up. At some point in the past a vast population of people were first generation Americans and many came from countries that didn't speak English. My grandfather was a first generation American born to two Sicilian parents who knew barely enough English to get buy. My great grandma died at 99 in 1998 and she still spoke with a heavy accent and more often then not in Italian when speaking to my grandpa. He was a very good student from what I was told by my grandma and mother. What did previous generations do? If he were still alive I would ask him but he is not.

I don't think the non-English speaking students are a new problem. I think the problem is that the expectations for what students should know at the end of kindergarten have been steadily increasing. When I was in kindergarten 33 years ago, all we did was play with blocks, sing, color, play on the playground and nap. Seriously, that was it; no academic learning started until first grade. When my son was in kindergarten 10 years ago, he was expected to know numbers 1-20, colors, shapes and be beginning to sound out 3 letter phonetic words at the end of kindergarten. The kids I teach are expected to read at a level 6, which includes a good number of sight words, as well as 5-6 letter phonetic words. They are expected to know numbers 1-100, and write three sentences to a prompt, among other things.

So, in previous generations, ELL students could learn the language because there weren't such pressing academic expectations. At least, that is what I think.

Marsha

 

[rie'smom]

ELL students are not necessarily non-citizens. And even if they were not citizens, they still have Constitutional rights.

So they have the same Constitutional right to be messed over by the, and I use the term loosely, Dept. of Education, as our kids do.

 

[gina2000]

I would say a separate class for a few months to really learn the basics of the language would be a good start. I don't think it is fair to throw these kids into classes where they don't speak English and teachers do not speak their language. Last year, we had a little boy who would cry and cry because he had never been away from his mom and he had no idea what we were saying to him. We had to get another student to translate for us constantly. It was very sad for him, frustrating to us and distracting to the rest of the class. I can't imagine 4 or 5 of this type of student in my class at once.

Our district has a full 3 level ESL department to help acclimate students who do not speak English. They must pass a proficiency test to enter each level and one speaking/writing test to enter mainstream academics. All of them are immigrants. Now here's the problem. The teachers may have 25 students in a class....who speak 17 different languages. While they do help each other, progress is slow and students are frustrated.

And here's another situation that exists in our district but has not been addressed: What happens when you have a child born in the US who does not speak English? I'm sure you think that's virtually impossible but I had a student in exactly that predicament last year. She had very limited speaking ability. She could read English but her capabilities did not go beyond being able to answer literal questions about text....and purely because she could find identical words and phrases in the text to aid her in answering questions. Our district has absolutely no programs available for this student. All I could do was ask her mother (who also spoke limited English) to please have her watch as much tv conducted in English as possible. Her family did not speak English at home ever and they were able to conduct business in their native tongue. This child ached to do better...but the limitations were obvious. She did manage to pass her state testing last year but as testing gets more rigorous, I'm not sure she will meet with success.


Solutions always seem so easy when you're on the outside looking in. And the absolute irony about it all is that we're cutting funding as more and more non-proficient speakers are entering our system.

 

[DeluxePrincess]

The perception with the public is that teachers are getting worse. This is due to the standardized test craze which went into full swing about 15 years ago and only gets worse. When I went to school, 20 odd years ago, there were no required tests that were published in the media. I did well in school, but I probably would not have done well on these standardized tests. These days, districts that fail to meet the "proficient" requirements make front page news. Nobody in charge has the guts to blame the parents for most of the child's shortcomings, so the teachers become the whipping boy. I don't see the future looking too bright for teacher rights.

 

[rie'smom]

Surely this isn't some new problem that has just propped itself up. At some point in the past a vast population of people were first generation Americans and many came from countries that didn't speak English. My grandfather was a first generation American born to two Sicilian parents who knew barely enough English to get buy. My great grandma died at 99 in 1998 and she still spoke with a heavy accent and more often then not in Italian when speaking to my grandpa. He was a very good student from what I was told by my grandma and mother. What did previous generations do? If he were still alive I would ask him but he is not.

Probably either one of these two:

1. My grandmothers were born and raised in south Louisiana and spoke nothing but French until they started school. They were taught by other French speakers in their community who had gone on to become teachers. They taught the children to speak English. It was a school subject. They were proud of their heritage and they were devoted and proud to be US citizens.

2. My mother and daddy were also born and raised in south Louisiana. My mom spoke very little English. When they went to school, if a teacher caught them speaking French, they were strapped. They were proud to be US citizens but ashamed of their ancestry. Almost none of that age group spoke French in front of our generation because they felt is was an embarrassment.

 

[Crazy4Disney72]

Until people openly admit that failing schools aren't failing because of the teachers, they are failing because of the families of the students, it's never going to change. And lawmakers aren't going to come out and say that, because they would lose too many votes.

There are bad teachers out there. But you aren't going to find a whole school of bad teachers. So when you have a high school kid failing almost all his/her classes, you have to look past the variables and look at the constant, which is the kid and his/her family. And when you have a 4th grader fail the state tests, you have to look back and really ask what are the odds that all the teachers they have had have been bad.

Someday maybe a politician will stand up and say let's start holding the parents responsible for the child's educational performance. Start mandating the parent be involved with the process. I realize the parents may not have the educational background to help with subject material, but they can make sure the work is always done, the child spends the time studying and is always in school and paying attention to the teacher. If that happens, then maybe we'll start to see a change in student performance. But, I'm not going to hold my breath.

It's not the teachers' or the parents' fault when the 4th grader fails the state testing because the student simply does not have the cognitive ability to perform to that level. It's absurd, but my autistic, cognitively impaired 6th grader, who is working at a 2nd and 3rd grade level depending on the subject, still has to take the 6th grade PSSA (PA state test) because he is classified as a 6th grader. Then it comes back that he is 'below basic'. It's extremely stressful for the kids and a total waste of time. NCLB is a joke.

 

[iwrbnd]

I don't think the non-English speaking students are a new problem. I think the problem is that the expectations for what students should know at the end of kindergarten have been steadily increasing. When I was in kindergarten 33 years ago, all we did was play with blocks, sing, color, play on the playground and nap. Seriously, that was it; no academic learning started until first grade. When my son was in kindergarten 10 years ago, he was expected to know numbers 1-20, colors, shapes and be beginning to sound out 3 letter phonetic words at the end of kindergarten. The kids I teach are expected to read at a level 6, which includes a good number of sight words, as well as 5-6 letter phonetic words. They are expected to know numbers 1-100, and write three sentences to a prompt, among other things.

So, in previous generations, ELL students could learn the language because there weren't such pressing academic expectations. At least, that is what I think.

Marsha

I completely agree and I'm a teacher! I don't think our expectations are developly appropriate. We just want to say our kids are doing this at this grade and it looks good! The truth is we ask so much and go at such a fast pace the basics aren't learned solidly. Everything builds on the basics and pretty soon you're behind. I think we are setting our children up for failure.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Surely this isn't some new problem that has just propped itself up. At some point in the past a vast population of people were first generation Americans and many came from countries that didn't speak English. My grandfather was a first generation American born to two Sicilian parents who knew barely enough English to get buy. My great grandma died at 99 in 1998 and she still spoke with a heavy accent and more often then not in Italian when speaking to my grandpa. He was a very good student from what I was told by my grandma and mother. What did previous generations do? If he were still alive I would ask him but he is not.

I cannot speak from experience...

But I do recall in 2nd or 3rd grade that we had a Vietnamese student. He did take speech therapy. In that case though, I'm sure part of that was due to the very different use of the mouth in formulating sounds between his native vietnamese and english. But I really have no idea. That was in the 1980s.

Given that my son takes speech, though he is only three....they do use a lot of pictures for words. Not sure what they do for an 8yo foreign language student.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I completely agree and I'm a teacher! I don't think our expectations are developly appropriate. We just want to say our kids are doing this at this grade and it looks good! The truth is we ask so much and go at such a fast pace the basics aren't learned solidly. Everything builds on the basics and pretty soon you're behind. I think we are setting our children up for failure.

I'm not a "trained/degreed" teacher. I just homeschool--but consensus within the homeschool community and in many things that I have read (often written by Phd or Masters degreed educators)--earlier is not better when it comes to rushing those basics b/c it doesn't have the desired effect of making them more able to do better later on.

I didn't even go to Kindergarten at all when I was in Elementary school. And nowadays--even in Florida it isn't mandatory (compulsory attendance is based on age and the school year you turn 6 before some day in February...consequently only 1 of my 4 children will legally be a compulsary Kindergartner.)...they pretty much won't let you into first grade without it.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

This kind of thing screws over schools like mine. My school is not "inner city", but does serve one of the largest low income/section 8 housing in a four state area. Out of 9 students in my class, only 3 have a mom and dad that are currently married. One of my students is homeless and has been to 8 different schools in less than 3 years (and some of those schools more than once.) Many parents in our school are not involved/don't care. I'm really not trying to be mean, but there are some terrible home lives. We do everything we can.

Instead of parent teacher conferences at the school, we go to them in their homes. We have a back snacks program so that the kids can have food on the weekends. We keep a closet of clothes/school supplies for any family that can't afford it. We have a social worker who will drive parents to meetings, doctors' appointments, etc. We have a psychologist who comes in and does whole family counseling.

Still... It's a tough school. I frequently have to play "dodge the chairs." I have kids who have to be restrained on a fairly regular basis. The sad thing is- there are other classrooms that are nearly as bad. I at least have the excuse that I teach sped to kids on the more severe end of the spectrum. But we have kids in the regular rooms who often have to be restrained/removed. The recovery room is next door to me, and you can hear them sometimes banging on the walls. There are several kids who spend most of the day in recovery because they literally will not listen to a thing the adults say. They cuss at us, hit us, defy us. They spend little time in their classroom because they are so disruptive, but that teacher is expected to be responsible for their learning.

This doesn't even get into the sped kids that are required to take a grade level test, even though they are not performing at grade level by virtue of the fact they have a disability.

 

[lillygator]

I'm not a "trained/degreed" teacher. I just homeschool--but consensus within the homeschool community and in many things that I have read (often written by Phd or Masters degreed educators)--earlier is not better when it comes to rushing those basics b/c it doesn't have the desired effect of making them more able to do better later on.

I didn't even go to Kindergarten at all when I was in Elementary school. And nowadays--even in Florida it isn't mandatory (compulsory attendance is based on age and the school year you turn 6 before some day in February...consequently only 1 of my 4 children will legally be a compulsary Kindergartner.)...they pretty much won't let you into first grade without it.

?? where is this? It's 5 before 9/1 to K here.

 

[rie'smom]

This kind of thing screws over schools like mine. My school is not "inner city", but does serve one of the largest low income/section 8 housing in a four state area. Out of 9 students in my class, only 3 have a mom and dad that are currently married. One of my students is homeless and has been to 8 different schools in less than 3 years (and some of those schools more than once.) Many parents in our school are not involved/don't care. I'm really not trying to be mean, but there are some terrible home lives. We do everything we can.

Instead of parent teacher conferences at the school, we go to them in their homes. We have a back snacks program so that the kids can have food on the weekends. We keep a closet of clothes/school supplies for any family that can't afford it. We have a social worker who will drive parents to meetings, doctors' appointments, etc. We have a psychologist who comes in and does whole family counseling.

Still... It's a tough school. I frequently have to play "dodge the chairs." I have kids who have to be restrained on a fairly regular basis. The sad thing is- there are other classrooms that are nearly as bad. I at least have the excuse that I teach sped to kids on the more severe end of the spectrum. But we have kids in the regular rooms who often have to be restrained/removed. The recovery room is next door to me, and you can hear them sometimes banging on the walls. There are several kids who spend most of the day in recovery because they literally will not listen to a thing the adults say. They cuss at us, hit us, defy us. They spend little time in their classroom because they are so disruptive, but that teacher is expected to be responsible for their learning.

This doesn't even get into the sped kids that are required to take a grade level test, even though they are not performing at grade level by virtue of the fact they have a disability.

It sounds like a cross between social services and a treatment center for troubled teens.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

And we're an elementary school! I remember being shocked last year when I thought a kindergartner might punch me. Today I was bitten by one of my kindergartners, my hand is rather swollen at the moment. And it's just another day in my classroom. That's what's tough. I'm lucky. My kids take the alternate assessment. That means I choose the criteria from a predetermined list, design the activities, and grade it. My fellow teachers aren't so lucky. The kid that has spent most of the year in the recovery room telling every adult to **** off and point blank refusing to do work or follow directions? He is expected to pass the test with the same level of proficiency as the kids who have been in the classroom all year and have done the work.

There is talk in our state that if a kid tests in 3rd grade below proficiency (3rd grade is the first year for testing), that they will determine how much that kid has to improve each year to reach proficiency by 8th grade. I like this better than the current method, but it still means that the 3rd graders will all be held to the same exact standard and some will not make AYP.

 

[skip323]

Probably either one of these two:

1. My grandmothers were born and raised in south Louisiana and spoke nothing but French until they started school. They were taught by other French speakers in their community who had gone on to become teachers. They taught the children to speak English. It was a school subject. They were proud of their heritage and they were devoted and proud to be US citizens.

2. My mother and daddy were also born and raised in south Louisiana. My mom spoke very little English. When they went to school, if a teacher caught them speaking French, they were strapped. They were proud to be US citizens but ashamed of their ancestry. Almost none of that age group spoke French in front of our generation because they felt is was an embarrassment.

Just a side comment!! My family had the same situation!! Louisiana french speaking folk who were embarrassed by the time my mother was in school. Her Creole became a sign of lack of education as opposed to just another language that could be utilized at home and with friends. What does that mean? A lost language!! Luckily my sister's husband's family continued speaking throughout the generations so her children are doing creole (part time) at home and English elsewhere but may end up attending the French Immersion school. The issue with our ESL kiddos should be teaching them to function fully in English but not to humiliate them because of their language and to have patience!! Unfortunately, under our current system, we do not have TIME to be patient because someone is waiting behind the scenes (who has never worked in a school probably) to judge the teachers who have not magically made these kids (and other low performers) jump 5 grade levels of performance in one year.

 

[golfgal]

It sounds like a cross between social services and a treatment center for troubled teens.

Yet, under this new law in NC (if she were there), she would be at risk for losing her job because the kids were not meeting expectations. How is this even REMOTELY her fault?

Others have brought up previous generations that spoke a different language and learned in school-this is also one MAJOR problem with ESL students. In the past, immigrants would push their kids to speak English because they were proud to be in the US and wanted to assimilate as fast as possible, NOW, many groups are saying 'heck with you, we aren't going to even try" and expect the country to cater to them. I think establishing an official national language, English, would help this situation tremendously.

In our old town we had a large population of Somali immigrants and a large population of Hispanic immigrants. It was night and day difference with their attitudes. The adult ESL classes were packed with Somali immigrants, they valued education, pushed their kids to do well in school, etc. Amazingly this population fit right in with the community, kids at school became fast friends, etc. One family in particular, the Dad was a physicist, holds a PhD, yet because he couldn't speak English had a job plucking turkeys to support his family. He was also an Olympic marathoner. You bet he was in the ESL classes. He now has a job teaching at the college.

Contrast that to the Hispanic population in town were none of them were in the ESL classes, they expected special consideration in schools-aides to translate for their kids, etc. During Easter week one year our church went out of their way to incorporate all of the readings, songs, etc. so they were read/sung in both English and Spanish yet only a handful of the Spanish speaking community showed up because they were upset that they couldn't have their "own" service .

A little effort on the part of the non-English speakers could really go a long way to make their lives easier.

 

[torinsmom]

This kind of thing screws over schools like mine. My school is not "inner city", but does serve one of the largest low income/section 8 housing in a four state area. Out of 9 students in my class, only 3 have a mom and dad that are currently married. One of my students is homeless and has been to 8 different schools in less than 3 years (and some of those schools more than once.) Many parents in our school are not involved/don't care. I'm really not trying to be mean, but there are some terrible home lives. We do everything we can.

Instead of parent teacher conferences at the school, we go to them in their homes. We have a back snacks program so that the kids can have food on the weekends. We keep a closet of clothes/school supplies for any family that can't afford it. We have a social worker who will drive parents to meetings, doctors' appointments, etc. We have a psychologist who comes in and does whole family counseling.

Still... It's a tough school. I frequently have to play "dodge the chairs." I have kids who have to be restrained on a fairly regular basis. The sad thing is- there are other classrooms that are nearly as bad. I at least have the excuse that I teach sped to kids on the more severe end of the spectrum. But we have kids in the regular rooms who often have to be restrained/removed. The recovery room is next door to me, and you can hear them sometimes banging on the walls. There are several kids who spend most of the day in recovery because they literally will not listen to a thing the adults say. They cuss at us, hit us, defy us. They spend little time in their classroom because they are so disruptive, but that teacher is expected to be responsible for their learning.

This doesn't even get into the sped kids that are required to take a grade level test, even though they are not performing at grade level by virtue of the fact they have a disability.

This drives me absolutely crazy! DS has a diagnosed math disability. He has always been about 2-3 years behind in math. He just cannot retain math facts and also has trouble with more than two step problems. So, in 8th grade, he was working on a 6th grade level in math. When test time came, he had to take the full 8th grade EOG with everyone else. I am sure his score brought the school's proficiency rate down, and it sure brought his confidence level down.

So, as I said, my son has a math disability. There is a math requirement to get into most 4 year colleges. You have to pass algebra, algebra 2, geometry and calculus. Okay, so I thought since there is a documented math disability, there would be some kind of exception, right? Nope, somehow, my child who is not even able to memorize multiplication facts has to make it through calculus if he wants to go to a 4 year college. If he was a year older, he would have had to pass calculus to GRADUATE! Passed algebra on the second try this past fall, and will probably pass geometry. He will be going to community college until he can pass the math classes he needs to get into a 4 year college and then he will never take another math class.

Oh, and another thing--at my son's high school, in order to pass certain classes, you have to pass the actual coursework with 70 or above AND you have to pass the end of course test with an 82% or better! Yes, in order to pass, you have to score ABOVE AVERAGE. Makes no sense......

Yet, under this new law in NC

(if she were there), she would be at risk for losing her job because the kids were not meeting expectations. How is this even REMOTELY her fault?

It's not a new law; it is a proposed recommendation by the district to placate this judge. And it is only for our county, not for NC.

Others have brought up previous generations that spoke a different language and learned in school-this is also one MAJOR problem with ESL students. In the past, immigrants would push their kids to speak English because they were proud to be in the US and wanted to assimilate as fast as possible, NOW, many groups are saying 'heck with you, we aren't going to even try" and expect the country to cater to them. I think establishing an official national language, English, would help this situation tremendously.

In our old town we had a large population of Somali immigrants and a large population of Hispanic immigrants. It was night and day difference with their attitudes. The adult ESL classes were packed with Somali immigrants, they valued education, pushed their kids to do well in school, etc. Amazingly this population fit right in with the community, kids at school became fast friends, etc. One family in particular, the Dad was a physicist, holds a PhD, yet because he couldn't speak English had a job plucking turkeys to support his family. He was also an Olympic marathoner. You bet he was in the ESL classes. He now has a job teaching at the college.

Contrast that to the Hispanic population in town were none of them were in the ESL classes, they expected special consideration in schools-aides to translate for their kids, etc. During Easter week one year our church went out of their way to incorporate all of the readings, songs, etc. so they were read/sung in both English and Spanish yet only a handful of the Spanish speaking community showed up because they were upset that they couldn't have their "own" service .

A little effort on the part of the non-English speakers could really go a long way to make their lives easier.

We need to be careful not to generalize. This is not all Spanish speaking parents. Most of my latino parents work long hours and are not able to participate as much as they like. They seem to value education, but don't understand well enough to help their child with homework.

Marsha

 

[golfgal]

We need to be careful not to generalize. This is not all Spanish speaking parents. Most of my latino parents work long hours and are not able to participate as much as they like. They seem to value education, but don't understand well enough to help their child with homework.

Marsha

Not generalizing, talking specifically about the population in our old town for comparison purposes. Having worked closely doing some volunteer work with the social services department there, long hours were not the reason for the lack of participation in their children's education. The point I was making is that the ADULTS were not making an effort to fit in and at least TRY to learn English.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Just to inject a little levity into this - OP, I know how frustrating all this is to educators. Perhaps this often quoted analogy will help you understand:

"NCLB: The Football Version


1. All teams must make the state playoffs, and all must win the championship. If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until they are the champions, and coaches will be held accountable.


2. All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the same time and in the same conditions. No exceptions will be made for interest in football, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or disabilities.


3. Talented players will be asked to work out on their own without instruction. This is because the coaches will be using all their instructional time with the athletes who are not interested in football, have limited athletic ability, or whose parents do not like football.


4. Games will be played year-round, but statistics will only be kept in the 4th, 8th, and 11th games.


5. This will create a New Age of sports where every school is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach the same minimal goals. If no child gets ahead, then no child gets left behind. If parents do not like this new law, they are encouraged to vote for vouchers and support private schools that can screen out the non-athletes and prevent their children from having to go to school with bad football players."

All we have to do is add a rule #6 - It doesn't matter if you can speak the same language as your coach - you still need to understand all the calls. And win that championship!

This is fabulous! - It's done so humorously, and yet it so true and sad at the same time.

OP - I like what you said about measuring the real progress of individual kids. Our scores are based on what I call "pretend progress" - this year's 3rd graders must beat last year's 3rd graders, for instance, for our school to "make progress". It's ridiculous! - a completely different set of variables.

And kindergarten - OMG! It is so not what it was when we were kids. I was in a full-day K yesterday where I was to include a free reading period, and I had 3 kids reading chapter books! Great that those few are ready, but forcing the others to read early just backfires - If they're not ready, they get frustrated, "learn" that reading is not fun, and have a much harder time catching up than if we hadn't introduced it until they were ready.

I think we should have fixed tracking instead of just getting rid of it.