Some small, private colleges struggling to survive

[Sarah'sMomfrom PA]

My daughter went to a Pharmacy school which was part of the Colleges of the Fenway in Boston and received her PharmD after a 6 year course. The cost of tuition at the Boston school was actually cheaper than a Pharmacy school that is 20 miles from our home in Pennsylvania (Wilkes University) What killed us was the rent in Boston...her college only had dorms for freshmen so she had to get an apartment for years 2 through 6. She received her degree in 2014 and had over 7 job offers and went with a retail pharmacy in Virginia and is making very good money. She came out of school with $249K in student debt but makes good money and has no trouble paying back her loans. She said that the market for pharmacists (especially in Pennsylvania since we have so many pharmacy schools) is saturated yet these schools continue to have lots of students sign up for the major. When she graduated, there were over 350 PharmD graduates (a lot of the students at her college came from the New England area) and she was willing to relocate anywhere so she did have an advantage. I think that she said that subsequent classes after she graduated had in excess of 400 students in the PharmD and the problem is that this profession pays well so the older pharmacists are not retiring or going part time and there are not that many openings in the field anymore.

 

[Jaime4004]

I went to Boston University 100 years ago, the deciding factor was the money. The tuition was outrageous at the time, and I know it's much worse now. But the other schools I had applied to were much smaller and offered much less money. I have 2 soon to be high schoolers, so my plan is for them to do the same. Apply to large and small schools and follow the money. We're in NH, no taxes, so state schools aren't significantly cheaper than private. Community college may work out, really depends on the major.

 

[Southernmiss]

My daughter went to a Pharmacy school which was part of the Colleges of the Fenway in Boston and received her PharmD after a 6 year course. The cost of tuition at the Boston school was actually cheaper than a Pharmacy school that is 20 miles from our home in Pennsylvania (Wilkes University) What killed us was the rent in Boston...her college only had dorms for freshmen so she had to get an apartment for years 2 through 6. She received her degree in 2014 and had over 7 job offers and went with a retail pharmacy in Virginia and is making very good money. She came out of school with $249K in student debt but makes good money and has no trouble paying back her loans. She said that the market for pharmacists (especially in Pennsylvania since we have so many pharmacy schools) is saturated yet these schools continue to have lots of students sign up for the major. When she graduated, there were over 350 PharmD graduates (a lot of the students at her college came from the New England area) and she was willing to relocate anywhere so she did have an advantage. I think that she said that subsequent classes after she graduated had in excess of 400 students in the PharmD and the problem is that this profession pays well so the older pharmacists are not retiring or going part time and there are not that many openings in the field anymore.

This is interesting to me. I have 2 working towards Pharm D degrees. One is in his 3rd year of a 7 year program and one is in his first. I have heard in the news that the market for pharmacists is getting saturated. However, their school still has a 99% placement rate for their graduates and seems to still be heavily recruiting for future classes and are expanding and modifying some of their program. They graduate about 100 pharm d students every year.

I am guessing it's the region that you live in that makes a difference. We live in Mississippi and there are rural areas in our state where even doctors are scarce so what I am told is that the local pharmacist becomes a care provider.

Older DS lives in an off campus apartment and younger DS will join him next year. We are paying off our house this year in hopes that we can help defray some of their student loans. And fingers crossed, they will be part of the 99% placement rate when they graduate and can handle the rest of their student loan payments.

 

[Sarah'sMomfrom PA]

This is interesting to me. I have 2 working towards Pharm D degrees. One is in his 3rd year of a 7 year program and one is in his first. I have heard in the news that the market for pharmacists is getting saturated. However, their school still has a 99% placement rate for their graduates and seems to still be heavily recruiting for future classes and are expanding and modifying some of their program. They graduate about 100 pharm d students every year.

I am guessing it's the region that you live in that makes a difference. We live in Mississippi and there are rural areas in our state where even doctors are scarce so what I am told is that the local pharmacist becomes a care provider.

Older DS lives in an off campus apartment and younger DS will join him next year. We are paying off our house this year in hopes that we can help defray some of their student loans. And fingers crossed, they will be part of the 99% placement rate when they graduate and can handle the rest of their student loan payments.

It definitely does depend on the area in which you live...we live in PA and the only retail pharmacies that had openings were in inner cities or areas that you wouldn't want to be in. Because we have a pharmacy school 20 miles from us, there is absolutely no demand because this school fills all of the available jobs. Pennsylvania has 7 pharmacy schools so there are tons of eligible employees for these pharmacies. My daughter was accepted at 4 pharmacy schools including the University of Pittsburgh (which would have been very reasonable for us) however, pharmacists that I work with (I work at a hospital) told us to make sure that she went to a school that just watched your GPA and you didn't have to take P-Cats to get in...University of Pittsburgh was the 1st two years of "pre-pharmacy" and then you had to apply to get into the actual PharmD program along with everyone else both in Pennsylvania and elsewhere. Her school just watched her GPA and she was automatically in the program if she maintained her GPA. Virginia only has 3 (I think) pharmacy/PharmD programs so they are not graduating as many students to fill the positions. Also a lot of the retail pharmacies consider 30 hours to be full time but when you have tons of student loans to pay back, you need to depend on 40 hours.

The money to be made is definitely in retail pharmacy. She loves her profession but does encounter some unpleasant individuals but I think that this could be said for any profession. Some people just live to be difficult. Being that your son's school graduates 100 students, is not enough to saturate your market but my daughter's school had 350 kids graduate in PharmD and Northeastern in Boston also had a pharmacy program and they graduated probably over 100-150 so that is a lot of kids coming into the market. My daughter loves her choice of Virginia and has been a manager for over 2 years and she still gets other pharmacies that try to lure her into their jobs so your sons have picked a good profession (and you apparently have 2 very bright sons since this is a hard program). Feel free to PM me with any questions that my daughter may be able to answer.

 

[AustinMommyofThree]

A ton of large public, non-flagship universities are also struggling to survive, as many of them have atrocious outcomes (very low graduation rates and very high debt rates) while the states are pulling back on their public support.

 

[OhMari]

That's the story in a nutshell! People are no longer willing to sign on for massive debt and not have the job at the end to support that debt. It was only a matter of time before this happened.

I also feel the sports program, is a huge deciding factor with keeping the under graduate classes going. Most athlete's, not all take the least amount of credit classes that keep them eligible to play the sport that they are in. College sports brings a lot of money to the schools and the schools do not want to end their cash cow. Plus, what do these athlete's care about their own debt?-nothing-they are sitting back and getting a free ride and think they will be playing a professional sport in the near future.

 

[runwad]

A ton of large public, non-flagship universities are also struggling to survive, as many of them have atrocious outcomes (very low graduation rates and very high debt rates) while the states are pulling back on their public support.

Yep, mine and DH's alma mater fits in that category. Our oldest DD is there and will graduate next year so she'll be ok, but I'm thinking about DS who wants to go there in 2019. I'm a little hesitant, I hope he can make it thru in 4 years, it's kinda scary to think about.

And to address the general studies classes, a move is being made for kids to be able to take these classes while still in high school thru College Credit Plus. All 3 of our kids got most of their gen eds out of the way while in high school for free!!

 

[meggiebeth]

This doesn’t really surprise me. Here in the UK, university tuition fees are capped at around $13,000 a year (currency estimated). Every potential student leaving school to go to university here is able to take out a student loan that they are only required to make payments on if they earn over a certain amount, and after a certain period of time has passed, the loan is waived completely.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

This doesn’t really surprise me. Here in the UK, university tuition fees are capped at around $13,000 a year (currency estimated). Every potential student leaving school to go to university here is able to take out a student loan that they are only required to make payments on if they earn over a certain amount, and after a certain period of time has passed, the loan is waived completely.

Keep in mind though the populations of the UK are vastly different than the U.S.

I cannot imagine the feasibility of forgiving loans the way that they do in the UK according to your comment. What I do agree on is educational costs in general are much higher than in the UK. But they are also formulated differently. For example--public school wise (so not quite the same as the topic of the thread speaking about private schooling) universities in my state petition the state to raise tuition to plug holes in financial aid they get from the state-so too much money taken away by the state leads to the universities petitioning to raise their tuition by X% to account for that. Then there are the ancillary fees that can get you such as books per semester.

 

[Hikergirl]

NYS now offers free tuition (for those who qualify) for Associates or Bachelor's degrees. This is the first full year it has been effect, but I wonder what kind of impact that will have on enrollment for small private schools in this state in the near future.

 

[tcufrog]

My husband is a very successful engineer and business owner. At the university we attended all students no matter their major were expected to complete the same core curriculum that included lab science, math, the arts, liberal arts, foreign language, social science, religion (included classes such as religion and anthropology), etc. I asked my dh what he thought of that and he told me that it was really valuable and he wants our sons to have a similar education. He also prefers to hire engineers who have had a similar liberal arts education. The university has not watered down the curriculum since we attended and the school has grown like crazy since we went. We scarcely recognize the campus now.

Like so many other industries lately, higher education is going through a period of consolidation. Operating an institute of higher learning is expensive and attending one is often expensive as well while at the same time it's becoming harder and harder for the next generation to stay at the same socioeconomic level as their parents. As a result, more and more families are reluctant to gamble on an unknown entity that may not have door opening name recognition.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

My husband is a very successful engineer and business owner. At the university we attended all students no matter their major were expected to complete the same core curriculum that included lab science, math, the arts, liberal arts, foreign language, social science, religion (included classes such as religion and anthropology), etc. I asked my dh what he thought of that and he told me that it was really valuable and he wants ours sons to have a similar education. He also prefers to hire engineers who have had a similar liberal arts education.

That's interesting on the language bit. My husband didn't have to complete any foreign language for his B.S.

For me however if I want a B.A. I did. If I wanted a B.G.S. I would have taken hands on courses rather than foreign language.

Religion? Was this a religious college then?

FWIW while I can understand your husband's desire to hire like minded that seems a bit out of norm. Every engineer I've met had has a large focus on engineering and it's what has made them so good at their jobs.

 

[Colleen27]

FWIW while I can understand your husband's desire to hire like minded that seems a bit out of norm. Every engineer I've met had has a large focus on engineering and it's what has made them so good at their jobs.

I think one of the problems that people run into when hiring technical types from schools that don't have a core liberal arts curriculum is communication. I know a couple of brilliant engineers and IT types who can't write their way out of an eighth-grade assessment or explain themselves in terms that don't take a four-year degree to understand. And regardless of how good they are at the technical side of their jobs, that makes them hard to work with and probably holds them back in some ways professionally. Getting through a liberal arts curriculum demands navigating more writing assignments and developing skills that aren't necessarily used/stressed in their major courses, but that are important "soft skills" in most professional capacities.

 

[bcla]

I think one of the problems that people run into when hiring technical types from schools that don't have a core liberal arts curriculum is communication. I know a couple of brilliant engineers and IT types who can't write their way out of an eighth-grade assessment or explain themselves in terms that don't take a four-year degree to understand. And regardless of how good they are at the technical side of their jobs, that makes them hard to work with and probably holds them back in some ways professionally. Getting through a liberal arts curriculum demands navigating more writing assignments and developing skills that aren't necessarily used/stressed in their major courses, but that are important "soft skills" in most professional capacities.

I actually got a minor in English Lit as an engineering major. I was actually hoping to meet women. It was actually quite interesting though with the contrast.

One time I was in an interview for an engineering job, and the interviewer asked if I might be able to supply some writing samples. About all I might have had were old proprietary documents. He asked maybe if I had any essays from college, and I told him that was over 20 years ago. It seemed kind of strange because my experience is that a lot of my engineering peers can't properly communicate, especially in English. One coworker (who English was quite good) noted that there should always be a place for someone like me given how many people in the industry couldn't communicate/write very well in English - include native English speakers.

I still have a hard time explaining what I do to a living to the average person. It's a little bit difficult without someone understanding at least a little bit about the technology.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think one of the problems that people run into when hiring technical types from schools that don't have a core liberal arts curriculum is communication. I know a couple of brilliant engineers and IT types who can't write their way out of an eighth-grade assessment or explain themselves in terms that don't take a four-year degree to understand. And regardless of how good they are at the technical side of their jobs, that makes them hard to work with and probably holds them back in some ways professionally. Getting through a liberal arts curriculum demands navigating more writing assignments and developing skills that aren't necessarily used/stressed in their major courses, but that are important "soft skills" in most professional capacities.

Well now I can understand that. Though even my husband had to take some English courses unless you tested out of them-now he admits..English is not the forte of his colleagues though he says that's mostly for lack of trying lol--my husband is not one of those colleagues and we have a lot of talks about English pet peeves of the people he has to interact with.

I mean my husband went to a liberal arts and science college..the same one as me but he went stright into the School of Engineering whereas I had to wait to get X amount of credits in X amount of courses in order to apply for the Department of Psychology. The School of Engineering program is a 4 or 5 year depending on how rigorous you wanted to be. While I generally took 15 credit hours per semester graduating in 4 years he took 17-18 credit hours and graduated in 4 years. He took some outside courses sure it just didn't sound like it was as many as the PP was describing though I could have been wrong.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think one of the problems that people run into when hiring technical types from schools that don't have a core liberal arts curriculum is communication. I know a couple of brilliant engineers and IT types who can't write their way out of an eighth-grade assessment or explain themselves in terms that don't take a four-year degree to understand. And regardless of how good they are at the technical side of their jobs, that makes them hard to work with and probably holds them back in some ways professionally. Getting through a liberal arts curriculum demands navigating more writing assignments and developing skills that aren't necessarily used/stressed in their major courses, but that are important "soft skills" in most professional capacities.

The old saying goes, "Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer, but today I are one".

That said, our engineering school here absolutely requires 2 semesters of Comp as well as other classes with heavy emphasis on written/communications skills. Still, there's only so much you can cram into 4 years and still satisfy all the technical classes required for engineering.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I still have a hard time explaining what I do to a living to the average person. It's a little bit difficult without someone understanding at least a little bit about the technology.

I've been with my husband over 10 years and usually I just describe his job as "he builds and retrofits powerplants" because that's about the extent to which I can understand it lol. No really I've picked up things here and there but it's still largely a mystery.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The old saying goes, "Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer, but today I are one".

That said, our engineering school here absolutely requires 2 semesters of Comp as well as other classes with heavy emphasis on written/communications skills. Still, there's only so much you can cram into 4 years and still satisfy all the technical classes required for engineering.

Your second point is pretty much what I was getting at. It can be hard to cast too wide of a net when it comes to highly technical degrees unless you make the program longer where more time is given to other courses..but then you have the extra $$ spent on doing that.

 

[bcla]

I've been with my husband over 10 years and usually I just describe his job as "he builds and retrofits powerplants" because that's about the extent to which I can understand it lol. No really I've picked up things here and there but it's still largely a mystery.

You know, I didn't really proofread it all that well. That should have been "what I do for a living". I work with a lot of people who came from other countries and where their English grammar can be an adventure. Not so much people from India since most were educated in English, although some tend to still use Hinglish phrases.

But my parents have asked what I do and they don't have anything more than a superficial idea.

 

[bcla]

The old saying goes, "Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer, but today I are one".

That said, our engineering school here absolutely requires 2 semesters of Comp as well as other classes with heavy emphasis on written/communications skills. Still, there's only so much you can cram into 4 years and still satisfy all the technical classes required for engineering.

There's always a breadth requirement at most schools - even supposedly ones that specialize in technical degrees like MIT. There's a rumor that it might be able to graduate with a liberal arts degree at MIT.

However, it's kind of interesting where I graduated with an engineering degree - at UC Berkeley. We had the breadth requirement in the College of Engineering, but it was something like 20 semester units and had to be in at least two different disciplines. It could even be in life sciences. I did take a class on Engineering communication, where we ended up writing essays and had to give a presentation on some sort of "technical" topic. Mine was one bicycle parts since I rode bikes. Someone else gave a presentation on rollerblading. But with the breadth requirement the classes had to come from a specific list. I think every class in the English department would apply. However, Oriental Languages was restricted to several upper division classes. The problem was that there were so many Chinese-American Mandarin speakers in engineering that it would have been a farce.