Soarin' and Toy Story Mania expansion late 2016

[twebber55]

Interestingly for all the hate these additions are getting, this was exactly what Walt would've done.

Better projection technology? More opportunities to ride? Giving more of what the people want?
Yeah, this is a clear case of "plussing attractions." Walt was a known supporter of this type of thing. In fact he basically invented this concept.

While you all are complaining about these great improvements, I'll just be able to ride two attractions I really like with short lines.

Let's be honest. Who hasn't ever seen the Soarin' wait time, and wished there was a way to get in sooner?

Well now there is...

are you a big fan of soarin?

 

[circus4u]

That is very true but when a park only has 6 rides they should be expanding more. Expansions with more high capacity rides would help even out crowds as well.

I think "attraction" should be used rather than "ride." I bet there are a lot of people that go to Disney and don't ride. Hall of Presidents, American Adventure, Country Bear Jamboree, etc should all be considered. When these attractions opened, there were throngs of people in attendance. The only difference between these attractions and what some would call a ride is that you move through the show; Energy, the Land, Space Ship Earth, Carousel of Progress, and some might even consider Soarin' a show. I just think that our culture/attitudes have changed since the Magic Kingdom opened. People want thrills now and those old, popular attractions don't fill the bill anymore. I bet that if Disney announced the Carousel of Progress was being closed down, people would be up in arms, but every time I have ridden it recently the theaters have been mostly empty. Same with Country Bears, Great Movie Ride, Energy, etc.

 

[George4]

The idea behind plussing attractions was that it happened before they were built, not as a constant upgrade to an existing ride. Walt believed that the parks should never be finished that things would constantly be added (and thereby deleted as well), and we simply haven't seen this.

What makes it harder are the bizarre budgets. You can build an indoor ride (like POTC) for $3-5 million, maybe a little more with really good theming. An omnimover style ride, maybe a little more at $5-7 million. That assumes the basic warehouse structure with a themed facade like most of the WDW parks. A big e-ticket that is not themed should run $15-25 million. I'm nor sure what the theming would cost on something that big, maybe an additional $5 million. This is why I struggle with $500 million only going for 2 rides and a restaurant. I get that the technology and theme drive the costs up, but the prices almost seem phenomenally out of control. I wonder how much of this has to do with reduction of WED employee's and the use of outside contractors for most of the development and implementation. Despite others faith in Imagineers, I stuggle with whether the Imagineer quality is decreasing or if the business-types in charge don't grasp how to implement Walt's vision in today's business world. They just see the bottom line and get excited - they aren't grasping all the return visitors they are losing and even greater revenue that they can extract from customers with a better product to offer them. Expanding teh capacity on Soarin and TSMM may help with the lines of those two rides, but it doesn't compel people to spend more time in DHS. It actually gets them out sooner.

Pluss-ing attractions was supposed to be about having a great idea and finding a Disney way to elevate it to something even better. TOT was "plussed" by having the drops become random so no two rides were alike, EE was plussed with the cool Yeti (which no longer works) and the backwards section of track. Soarin' was plussed by adding the smell component and light breeze. Adding more track, a new movie, a better projector are not really the idea behind "pluss-ing" an attraction.

 

[George4]

I think "attraction" should be used rather than "ride." I bet there are a lot of people that go to Disney and don't ride. Hall of Presidents, American Adventure, Country Bear Jamboree, etc should all be considered. When these attractions opened, there were throngs of people in attendance. The only difference between these attractions and what some would call a ride is that you move through the show; Energy, the Land, Space Ship Earth, Carousel of Progress, and some might even consider Soarin' a show. I just think that our culture/attitudes have changed since the Magic Kingdom opened. People want thrills now and those old, popular attractions don't fill the bill anymore. I bet that if Disney announced the Carousel of Progress was being closed down, people would be up in arms, but every time I have ridden it recently the theaters have been mostly empty. Same with Country Bears, Great Movie Ride, Energy, etc.

To some extent, I think you are correct. However, I think it is more the adults that are just looking for thrills. My kids only ask about the big rides, but they have loved most of the other rides/shows that we have taken them through. My boys love Country Bear, my daughter things the Land boat ride is really cool and interesting. I don't think anyone enjoys the Universe of Energy - ever. The pre-show with the rotating tiles was awesome, but the rest has always been disappointing. It is in the shade though, so on a hot day, you deal with it since there is never a wait. As big as the building is, you could do some amazing things in there about energy. Wow, I am off-topic here.
My original thought was supposed to be that there are lots of people that do enjoy these rides. You just don't have to wait 60 minutes to do them because they have much higher capacity's then the bigger thrill rides, so they never seem full, but they still have lots of people going through them.

 

[DDLand]

The idea behind plussing attractions was that it happened before they were built, not as a constant upgrade to an existing ride. Walt believed that the parks should never be finished that things would constantly be added (and thereby deleted as well), and we simply haven't seen this.

What makes it harder are the bizarre budgets. You can build an indoor ride (like POTC) for $3-5 million, maybe a little more with really good theming. An omnimover style ride, maybe a little more at $5-7 million. That assumes the basic warehouse structure with a themed facade like most of the WDW parks. A big e-ticket that is not themed should run $15-25 million. I'm nor sure what the theming would cost on something that big, maybe an additional $5 million. This is why I struggle with $500 million only going for 2 rides and a restaurant. I get that the technology and theme drive the costs up, but the prices almost seem phenomenally out of control. I wonder how much of this has to do with reduction of WED employee's and the use of outside contractors for most of the development and implementation. Despite others faith in Imagineers, I stuggle with whether the Imagineer quality is decreasing or if the business-types in charge don't grasp how to implement Walt's vision in today's business world. They just see the bottom line and get excited - they aren't grasping all the return visitors they are losing and even greater revenue that they can extract from customers with a better product to offer them. Expanding teh capacity on Soarin and TSMM may help with the lines of those two rides, but it doesn't compel people to spend more time in DHS. It actually gets them out sooner.

Pluss-ing attractions was supposed to be about having a great idea and finding a Disney way to elevate it to something even better. TOT was "plussed" by having the drops become random so no two rides were alike, EE was plussed with the cool Yeti (which no longer works) and the backwards section of track. Soarin' was plussed by adding the smell component and light breeze. Adding more track, a new movie, a better projector are not really the idea behind "pluss-ing" an attraction.

Yes and no on your definition. The textbook case is Jungle Cruise which was constantly refined over time. Even to this day it's still receiving updates and new additions. This is known as plussing an attraction. It's true plussing can take place before even beginning construction. Just don't be fooled into thinking once an attraction is opened means that it's untouchable or can only be replaced. Here's an article with some plussed attractions.


http://www.****************.com/fea...best-times-disney-plussed-classic-attractions

Ironically I think the It's a Small World Pluss was terrible except for Alice and Mary Poppins. Sheriff Woody representing America was a low point for me. Though I expect Small World to outlast all those characters.

I agree that Imagineering is still an incredibly inefficient after the Eisner years. Expenditures remain way too high. However I'm not sure where you're getting those number estimates either.

I did a quick web search for POTC, and I came up with an admittedly sketchy number of 8 million. Plugging that into an inflation calculater pegs the attraction cost at 50 million+.

Walt was notorious for big budgets. The man drove his more sensible brother crazy.

 

[DDLand]

are you a big fan of soarin?

I like it. Don't you? The lines are always way too long so that's a frustration that should be glowing away soon.

I'm wondering internally if Avatar may have an effect on its popularity. I'm sorry, for all the praise Cameron got for his beautiful imagery it just doesn't compare to real life. I think Soarin will always have that advantage. Still a thrill ride version along with with all the new night life could hit Epcot hard.

It's funny really. Disney is about to build all sorts of Pixar rides that should take some of the heat off of TSMM, and they're also building a tricked out version of Soarin.

I'm wondering if these two expansions aren't as strategic as they seem. All the same I'll take shorter wait times any day!

 

[DDLand]

The imagineers usually get it right the problem is how much money the board/company will give them.

Just like how they got the Yeti right!


Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[George4]

I didn't mean that attractions are finished once they are put it, just that Walt's idea of "plussing" was done before the ride was put it.

As for your math, that original cost seems about right, but keep the size of the ride in mind. Jungle Cruise is the only ride that is bigger at DL (the WFW of POTC is shorter than the DL version) than POTC. At almost 15 minutes long and processing almost 3,500 people per hour, POTC is almost double the size of any other Disney attraction. Well worth the price. You could build 9 of them in AK for the price of the 2 Avatar rides, and presumably have about about 12 times the capacity. It's the combination of capacity and ride length that makes the cost worth it. On the flip side, Mission:SPACE for instance lasts 5 minutes and processes 1,500 people per hour and cost a reported $150 million.

I came up with my costs from other similar engineering projects, and I estimated the costs for the theming. I could easily be off on the theme costs, but the ride/attraction costs should be fairly accurate.

 

[DDLand]

I didn't mean that attractions are finished once they are put it, just that Walt's idea of "plussing" was done before the ride was put it.

As for your math, that original cost seems about right, but keep the size of the ride in mind. Jungle Cruise is the only ride that is bigger at DL (the WFW of POTC is shorter than the DL version) than POTC. At almost 15 minutes long and processing almost 3,500 people per hour, POTC is almost double the size of any other Disney attraction. Well worth the price. You could build 9 of them in AK for the price of the 2 Avatar rides, and presumably have about about 12 times the capacity. It's the combination of capacity and ride length that makes the cost worth it. On the flip side, Mission:SPACE for instance lasts 5 minutes and processes 1,500 people per hour and cost a reported $150 million.

I came up with my costs from other similar engineering projects, and I estimated the costs for the theming. I could easily be off on the theme costs, but the ride/attraction costs should be fairly accurate.

See that's the problem. He helped orchestrate the plussing of Jungle Cruise. This is the type of plussing he would definitely do. Storybook Riverboats is another example of a ride that opened with little themeing, and was plusssed over Walt's life to be really great. (Still being plusssed until this day with Frozen!)

Not disputing your main point. Not at all. Like I've said Imagineering was and likely still is a cesspool of greed and ineffectiveness. It can finish great projects, only with enormous expenditures supporting them. They were almost destroyed for good too. I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen at some point in the future if they keep this up.

Back to my main point you just used POTC as a specific example of a 5 million buildup. I think that's lowballing. However the ineffectiveness contributes to the cost like you say.

 

[rteetz]

I think "attraction" should be used rather than "ride." I bet there are a lot of people that go to Disney and don't ride. Hall of Presidents, American Adventure, Country Bear Jamboree, etc should all be considered. When these attractions opened, there were throngs of people in attendance. The only difference between these attractions and what some would call a ride is that you move through the show; Energy, the Land, Space Ship Earth, Carousel of Progress, and some might even consider Soarin' a show. I just think that our culture/attitudes have changed since the Magic Kingdom opened. People want thrills now and those old, popular attractions don't fill the bill anymore. I bet that if Disney announced the Carousel of Progress was being closed down, people would be up in arms, but every time I have ridden it recently the theaters have been mostly empty. Same with Country Bears, Great Movie Ride, Energy, etc.

Now I'll agree with that but still as a repeat visitor I don't see hall of president every time unless something has changed. I think that is the mentality of a lot of people. Indiana jones at DHS has been the same since it debuted. I'm mostly referring to AK and DHS in terms of low amounts of attractions because many consider those two parks half day parks. For me right now I would consider DHS a half day park, AK full day.

 

[rteetz]

Just like how they got the Yeti right!


Sorry, couldn't resist...

I said usually, not all the time. And as for the yeti I don't think the imagineers expected what happened to happen.

 

[rteetz]

Yes and no on your definition. The textbook case is Jungle Cruise which was constantly refined over time. Even to this day it's still receiving updates and new additions. This is known as plussing an attraction. It's true plussing can take place before even beginning construction. Just don't be fooled into thinking once an attraction is opened means that it's untouchable or can only be replaced. Here's an article with some plussed attractions.


http://www.****************.com/fea...best-times-disney-plussed-classic-attractions

Ironically I think the It's a Small World Pluss was terrible except for Alice and Mary Poppins. Sheriff Woody representing America was a low point for me. Though I expect Small World to outlast all those characters.

I agree that Imagineering is still an incredibly inefficient after the Eisner years. Expenditures remain way too high. However I'm not sure where you're getting those number estimates either.

I did a quick web search for POTC, and I came up with an admittedly sketchy number of 8 million. Plugging that into an inflation calculater pegs the attraction cost at 50 million+.

Walt was notorious for big budgets. The man drove his more sensible brother crazy.

Like I said before imagineering does their best with what they have. If you're told to create a show with 1 million vs. 100 million which do you think would produce the better show. Just an example.

 

[George4]

I'm not disputing the end product being amazing, but the costs are staggering for what we are getting.

 

[DDLand]

I'm not disputing the end product being amazing, but the costs are staggering for what we are getting.

100% Though sometimes their shows are questionable.

 

[DDLand]

Like I said before imagineering does their best with what they have. If you're told to create a show with 1 million vs. 100 million which do you think would produce the better show. Just an example.

No doubt about that.

 

[George4]

Though sometimes their shows are questionable.

Fair point on the entertainment value, but they are at least dressed up nicely.

 

[Jasperkitty]

Do you think they will need to shut down the rides for the expansions, or would be able to do the construction behind temporary walls and keep the rides up for some if not all of the building?

 

[sachilles]

I think you will find minimal down time on the current rides.

 

[DDLand]

I think you will find minimal down time on the current rides.

Indeed. Actually both of these expansions are already well underway. It should be a pretty seamless project.

 

[rteetz]

Do you think they will need to shut down the rides for the expansions, or would be able to do the construction behind temporary walls and keep the rides up for some if not all of the building?

Rides will be up the entire time. They may shut them down for a short period of time when they need to bring the other theater or track on but that would be it. Both are already under construction and have been for a while.