So, who has led since Eisner....and do we like him/her?

Baron I must say I am really enjoying this, and I would love for others to jump in. I'm not impossible to be converted, but as I said earlier, Michael Eisner was my hero as a kid, so it may be an uphill battle. Yea I know most kids want to be like a different Michael, but he was mine :thumbsup2
That's because you're too young to realize how Walt thought and envisioned Disney properties. Of course they have to make money to survive but how they make money is certainly completely different.

In Walt's philosophy you gave the Customers what they wanted and they in turn would spend their money and you'd make money. It became a win-win situation.

In Eisner's philosophy you cut corners where ever you can to make money and hope your customers keep coming. If fewer customers come you just cut more to keep making money. It's definitely not a win-win proposition.
 
In Walt's philosophy you gave the Customers what they wanted and they in turn would spend their money and you'd make money. It became a win-win situation.

A slight correction but my personal benchmark on 'all things Disney' is that Walt believed you should EXCEED guests expectations...

This philosophy alone made Disney different than everyone else.
pirate:
 
Pirate: Thanks for correcting me! You are indeed correct Walt strived to exceed customer expectations in every way. Eisner on the other hand only wants to exceed stockholder expectations and really doesn't take that customers into account.
 
That's because you're too young to realize how Walt thought and envisioned Disney properties. Of course they have to make money to survive but how they make money is certainly completely different.

In Walt's philosophy you gave the Customers what they wanted and they in turn would spend their money and you'd make money. It became a win-win situation.

In Eisner's philosophy you cut corners where ever you can to make money and hope your customers keep coming. If fewer customers come you just cut more to keep making money. It's definitely not a win-win proposition.

I understand that 100%. Did I live during Walt's time, no. But the foundations of the company are not lost on me. If the philosopy changed to "cutting corners and hope your customers keep coming" how do you explain the growth in attendance figures year after year. Even Eisner's flops DCA and DLP have registered increases in attendance nearly all of the last 5 years. Sure Eisner could have simply raised prices, cut corners and drove some people away, and yet still made more money because the people who did come paid more. But we all know Disney's record with price increases, and yet attendance figures still keep going up...

Long story short, if things have deteriorated as much as we say, then why dont the attendance figures reflect it. Disney's business lives and dies with repeat customers, so clearly they are having no problem convincing people to come back, including the thousands on these boards.....
 

I didn't say that the park attendance hasn't grown, I said that things were not done in accordance with Walt's philosophy. Attendance has Grown because there are more places for them to go to and stay at (again something not part of Walt's philosophy). Obviously Disney, especially WDW needed more places to put people to make more money! These new places however were built cutting corners and as cheaply as possible. If they had been built with the same philosopy that the original Disneyland and Magic Kingdom (into a lesser degree Epcot) were the attendance figures would be considerably higher than they are now. The only newer attractions that would truly meet Walt's expectations are probably Test Track and portions of Soaring, Mission Space and Everest.
 
Yes there are more parks and resorts, but my point was that each of those parks has seen a year over year increase in attendance practically every year, not just that combined attendance has gone up. Many will say DHS and AK were half done projects, and I can see where they get that. But why do these parks continue to see a year over year increase. The only way these increases are possible is if Disney is able to capture significant repeat customers. So if the quality is not what it should be, then why do they..correction, why do WE keep going back.....
 
How can you say park attendence has grown year over year when Disney does not officially release their numbers?
All those numbers in the press? They are guesses. They aren't real.

Anyway, you know how you keep attendence up?
You offer your dining plan for free. etc etc etc.

If the studios and AK are so great, then why did Disney invent park hopping a little bit after MGM opened? PRior to MGM, people were content to spend all day in one park. It made more money for Disney that way. Suddenly everyone wanted park hopping. Maybe, because MGM wasn't worth staying in all day. Maybe, if they had been built right, attendance would be even better.
Also, you have to realize that in the 90s, WDW completely changed vacation expectations. In the 70s and 80s, a WDW vacation was at best a once every 5 years deal for most families. Starting in the mid 90s, they brought in DVC and more mid and value resorts. They raised the prices on the Deluxes and made the place a haven for regular, every year, or multiple times a year visits.
That completely and totally changed their model and it affected their attendence. Unique visitors hasn't risen, number of visits has.
Eisner was no one to look up to. He was arogant, vindictive, paranoid, bad at his job and anyone who disagreed with him was an antisemite. And I looked up to him too. I remember seeing him introduce the Wonderful world of Disney. It's nice to be a kid and not have to know the truth.

As for his stock options. What I've heard from those in the know is this:
Remember that whole stock option fiasco that Steve Jobs had a year or two ago? Well he ain't got nuthin on Michael Eisner. A lot of paperwork got shredded when Jobs was busted.

And finally, Treating Disney War and A work in progress as equal is just a lot of balderdash. A Work in Progress was written by an egotistical dunce who was trying to fix his image after the Katzenburg and Ovitz debacles. (that darned Midget) The other was written by a well regarded author with no direct ties to the company and a reputation for journalistic excellence that he would have wanted to maintain.
To suggest that the sources are equal is ludicrous.

PS.
I don't do good with Archiving either. There's been a lot of discussion since you were last active, maybe Hope will find it.
I must agree though, nearly 10 years of discussion, there are a couple years of us discussing the same thing over and over again.
 
How can you say park attendence has grown year over year when Disney does not officially release their numbers?
All those numbers in the press? They are guesses. They aren't real.

Anyway, you know how you keep attendence up?
You offer your dining plan for free. etc etc etc.

If the studios and AK are so great, then why did Disney invent park hopping a little bit after MGM opened? PRior to MGM, people were content to spend all day in one park. It made more money for Disney that way. ......

We were not content to stay in one park all day in the mid 1980's.

We used our World Passport tickets and went to Epcot in the mornings and then we went to the MK in the late afternoon and evening.

From this website:

http://allears.net/tix/ticketdesc.htm

3 Day World Passport - Disney's first park hopping ticket allowed unlimited use of both the MK and Epcot for three days for one person. Introduced in 1982. Discontinued in 1990.
 
First of all a question. Is that you pictured in the avatar? If so, which one? The strapping young man or the rather fetching woman? Or do you take turns? Just curious.

Baron I must say I am really enjoying this
Me too!!

I'm not impossible to be converted, but as I said earlier, Michael Eisner was my hero as a kid
It’s OK. We all make mistakes. Especially when we are young. Heck! I believed in some strange and blatantly wrong stuff when I was younger!! But once I reached about the age of eighteen or so I had to reassess the whole Santa thing!!!! I mean that guy could not possibly fit down my chimney!!!!
Yea I know most kids want to be like a different Michael, but he was mine
I’m sure you mean Bolton?
So setting aside Eisners faults with the Katzenberg drama, what makes his QUARTER OF A BILLION different than Eisners?
Several things. First of all you can’t “set aside” Ei$ner’s faults with the deal. It was because of him that Katzenberg wanted revenge!! And I really can’t blame him. And since dueling was out of style and he wasn’t connected to the Chicago Outfit, he chose to hurt Ei$ner where he would really feel it. Monetarily!! You did read Disney Wars, didn’t you?

And BTW: I’m sooooooooooo sorry!! I misspoke!! It was NOT a quarter of a billion that Ei$ner got away with. How silly of me!! I guess I was typing too fast. I even had to go back and look at what I wrote and sure enough – it was WRONG!! So let me correct it!! He made over THREE QUARTERS OF A BILLION!! My bad! Sorry!!
Shame on the board for not being more proactive in all of these contracts, and obviously they cost shareholders dearly.
OH COME ON!!! Who do you think controlled the board!!!??? His DENTIST was on the board!! They were proactive!! Very proactive. They had their marching orders and they knew on which side their bread was buttered!! And you are right!! It did cost the shareholders dearly! VERY DEARLY!!!
But I don't see any "Katzenberg robbed the company blind" threads.....
You should have been when the place was lousy with Ei$ner lovers!! Poor Mikey!! How dare that CREEP not just going away like LORD MICHAEL wanted him to!!
Maybe some day I'll learn to pontificate, it just sounds cool
Yeah! It does, doesn’t it? And it’s easy! Just find something you’re passionate about and start typing. Oh! And be sure you never knowingly lie! You can make a mistake, but never mislead purposely.

If you follow those rules you’re half way there. The other half is next…
But surely someone who knows how to pontificate knows that there is no right or wrong in debates
Ah! Contraire!! I am ALWAYS right!!! That’s the other half of pontificating!! You HAVE to be right!!
So I'm curious, when did you become a shareholder and why?
Back in the seventies. Because it was still a GREAT company!! With a GREAT philosophy!! And I thought EPCOT (while not Walt’s dream city) sounded good to me! A sure moneymaker!! And when I saw it firsthand I bought more.

Peter Pirate Wrote
A slight correction but my personal benchmark on 'all things Disney' is that Walt believed you should EXCEED guests expectations... This philosophy alone made Disney different than everyone else.
YES!! YES!!! YES!!! You finally get it Peter!!! But the lunkheads in charge of Disney do no not!! They haven’t exceeded expectations in quite some time!!! Say 1981 or so…

Hmmmmmmmm I wonder if Ei$ner had anything to do with that change in philosophy!!!!!??
 
:surfweb:

First off a clarification. I was not saying that Work in Progress was equal to Disney War. Trust me, I know self promotion when I see it. I was simply trying to say that for Baron to believe "99.9%" of what was said in Disney War, would be like someone doing the same with Work in Progress. My point earlier on the two books remains, they were both written by authors to make money. Heroism and controversy sells, and the truth probably lies in between, and yes more toward the Disney War side of things. But 99.9%...come on:thumbsup2

I guess I dont follow what is wrong with WDW being a once a year destination, instead of a once every 5 years. If the goal is to increase attendance, wouldnt it make sense to get people to come more often? If we dont know the "true" attendance figures, then how can we know that unique visitors have not risen? And even if they haven't, again I say if the quality has gone to pot, then why do these guests who have been many times before continue to come back, invest thousands in DVC, etc.

And as far as the board, yes Eisner controlled them, thats very clear. But he didnt control them in 1984 when his first contract was approved, and its there that the groudwork was laid for the rubber stamping that occurred on his renewals later. Even Disney War pointed out that no one on the board was involved in Katzenbergs set up either. Surely someone should have thought "You know, 2 percent of all his movies could be enormous. Maybe we better put some sort of cap on that."

Baron the reason I asked when you became a shareholder is its puzzling how one can slam Eisner for focusing all about profit, when you yourself profited as well. Did you go to the shareholder meetings and complain about the 30 fold return you saw? I doubt it, although that would be a funny sight:rotfl:

Oh and yes thats me in the avatar, I'm the not so strapping young fellow.:thumbsup2 Taken right before brunch at Club 33....
 
I guess I dont follow what is wrong with WDW being a once a year destination, instead of a once every 5 years. If the goal is to increase attendance, wouldnt it make sense to get people to come more often? If we dont know the "true" attendance figures, then how can we know that unique visitors have not risen? And even if they haven't, again I say if the quality has gone to pot, then why do these guests who have been many times before continue to come back, invest thousands in DVC, etc.
The problem is that repeat visits are riskier. Do you know how most of the those DVC memberships are financed? with Adjustable rate home equity loans based on property that is no longer maintaining value. What do you think a DVC holder will default on first?
By making Disney a lifestyle brand and catering to regulars, Disney has tied themselves far more directly to the state of the economy then they were previously. They are in for a world of hurt but soon.

And on the flip side, regular visitors don't care as much about big fancy new attractions, because they're going to go a bunch of times in the year, so they're already content to see the same thing over and over again. They are more likely to be satisfied with small changes and special pins and stuff like that. They don't mind having park hours cut as much, because they come so often, they'll just go to the shopping mall, I mean DTD. They are content to have the experience cheapened.

Now you may say "That's great" Disney can spend less to maintain those visitors. The problem is, that when the economy tightens, those people are going to stop coming. The people that treat Florida and Disney as a bigger deal. Well, they're a different breed. They aren't mindless drones sucked into the Pretty fairy princess happy magic highschool musical Montana Sparrow Lifestyle branding. People plan for years for those kinds of vacations. Money gets saved. Plans thought through. They are looking to have a great vacation and they will judge Walt Disney World based on the value they get for the money, because money is tight. And those people will look at what new attractions have been added. They'll note that Epcot used to mean something in the 80s and now it's just a punchline from the Simpsons. They'll even notice that the Tokyo Disney properties cost about the same to visit and STILL maintain the level of Disney excellence that Walt established and they will make their choices. And WDW will lose out more and more.

I myself am a good example. I haven't been to WDW in a number of years, because my personal economy has tightened and the company has managed to destroy any desire I had. I may go as a part of a trip to Universal to see the Harry Potter stuff, but my plan is to put my money into a trip to DL Tokyo. To see real magic.

And as far as the board, yes Eisner controlled them, thats very clear. But he didnt control them in 1984 when his first contract was approved, and its there that the groudwork was laid for the rubber stamping that occurred on his renewals later.
Didn't he though? He and Wells were hand picked by Roy and his backers. They named terms.

Baron the reason I asked when you became a shareholder is its puzzling how one can slam Eisner for focusing all about profit, when you yourself profited as well. Did you go to the shareholder meetings and complain about the 30 fold return you saw? I doubt it, although that would be a funny sight:rotfl:

Because he was buying into Walt's dream. You really can't understand unless you were there. I barely understand myself. The Disney Studios wasn't just a company you bought stock in. Walt Disney wasn't just an entertainer or a CEO.

Disney was so much more than that. Yes, they needed to make money. They needed to make money so they could keep being Disney.
 
......Maybe, because MGM wasn't worth staying in all day. Maybe, if they had been built right, attendance would be even better.
......



When DISNEY- MGM Studios first opened I thought it was built right. (Well, at least more right than it is now. At least it really had a lot of the parts of a real working studio.... Much of which is sorely lacking now). There was a lot more to see IMHO. At that time we felt it was a full day park. They started cutting a big part of the tours even before LMA was added and the backstage residential street with the home from "Earnest save's Christmas" and the facade of the "Golden Girls" home were demolished to make room for the LMA show.

The backstage tour use to have many more parts and back then the studios truly were "working" studios and guests could experience much more of the making of movies and TV shows.

The following info was condensed by me but taken from my 1990 Birmbaum's WDW guide book.



When the Sudios first opened the BackStage tour began with a with a presentation of the history of the Walt Disney Studios on overhead TV monitors in the Queue area.
The line weaved through a gallery of milestones and memories from the early days of Disney Studios.
That part took about 25 minutes to complete.

At that point guests loaded onto the trams.
The trams went by a bunalows housing project where actual work was being done on several TV shows.( Win, Lose or Draw, The New Mickey Mouse Club, etc) Then we through the "greens" dept. where trees, plants, & shubs were kept until they were needed for a set. Then the tram traveled through a tunnel and we saw the Wardrobe dept. The tram then passed through the Camera, props, and lighting dept. Then we got to take a look into the sceanic shop where we could see carpenters working on sets.

The tram then turned onto the Backlot residential street. (where LMA is now ).
After that on to Catastrophe Canyon.
From Catastrophe Canyon the Tram headed for the "streets of NY City'.
On the way to PART 2 of the tour the Tram passed the the trolly and "Dipmobiel " used in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"

Part 2 of the tour was on foot.
First we followed Roger Rabbit's Big Purple Footprints to the Loony Bin shop and a chance to play with some of the props used in the movie. Our kids loved playing with the boxes that made animal sounds, street sounds, or laughter when opened.

Following the footprints once again we were lead to another queue area where a Goldie Hawn/Rick Moranis video was played to help pass the average 20 minute wait for PART 2.
The first part of the tour is the one wherea guest who was chosen from the audience puts on the yellow raincoat and is filmed sitting at the helm of a "ship" which is in a storm and the guest gets more than 400 gallons of water dumped on him/her.

Then it is on to the prop room where we got to see familiar creatures including members of the cast of
" Captain EO".

Then onto the room with a Giant Bee that was used from " Honey I Shunk The Kids".
3 children were chosen to participate. DS Bob age 9 at the time, DD Cathy ( age 6 at the time ) & DN Steph (age 6 at the time ) were chosen. Bob opted out ( he was shy) so they chose another child
from the audience.

Cathy "rode" on top of the Bee, Steph rode on the Bee's wing and the other child sat in the Director's chair.
The guests are shown how film is shot against a blue screen and then superimposed onto any backround chosen. The kids were filmed and the footage is cut with real scenes from the movie.

Then we continued on to the sound stages with the soundproof catwalks.The guests walk through 3 sound stages where
filming for movies or TV shows may be taking place.
When we went in 1990 they were filming "Wheel Of Fortune".

From that area we were led onto a walkway where a Bette Midler short film was presented on overhead TV monitors. That film was shot entirely at the Disney-MGM studios so we and the other guests could recognize the sets from the NY city part of the backstage tram tour we had just experienced.
In the short movie Midler discovers she has a winning lottery ticket but somehow the ticket falls out of her window onto the apartment building ledge a few stories above the street and she tries to retrive it. ( If I remember correctly she goes on to the window ledge and whenshe trying to get the ticket she somehow falls off the ledge into a shopping a cart.
It was really a cute film.
After the film we were led into a wherehouse where some of the sets and props that were used for the MiMidler film were stored. A hostess then explained some of the special effects that were used to create some of the highlights of that film.

Next in the area known as the the Post Group, We watched a film where George Lucas, C3PO, R2D2 narrated about editing techniques , and Mel Gibson and Pee Wee Herman explained the sound effects

Last stop on the tour was the Walt Disney Theater where clips from recent and soon to be released Disney and Touchstone films were shown.
-----------------------------------------------
In 1990 we saw other attractions that have since closed.
Superstar television...Where roles in famous TV shows were up for grabs.
Members of the aduience were chosen to take part.
The stage had several sets, The camera operatorswould shoot the actors in action. The auience would watch on giant screens but the action would vary because they would blue sreens to merge the live action with historic clips from classic shows.

One was a guestin the seat on the "Today Show" on July 17,1955, the day that Disneyland first opened.

Another one was a guest who played Ethel Mertz with a scene played from "I LOVE LUCY"where the guests tries to wrap candy from a factory on the canveyor belt and the belt starts going too fast and she can't keep up.
(It was so funny to watch).

There was a scean from "General Hospital".

Several children were chosen to star in the opening song of "Gilligan's Island. etc.


Monster Sound Show......
It was not about monster's but rather how "Foley" sound effets are added to movies and how theyhave to be timed just right.


and of course the Annimation building use to have a 71 member annimation team worked in shifts so we could see them working on current projects.
We saw the 15 oscars that were won by the Disney Animation team.We saw a collection of drawings from Snow White, Fantasia, and other cartoon classics on display.Then we moved into the Disney Animation Theater where we saw an * minute funny flim about the basics of animation.

After that we got we got to walk through a working annimation studio!

First stop story room where annimators delveloped the story lines. ( Remember.. We actually saw men and women working on the storyline not just an empty room with a few artifacts.) We got to see artists working at their desks sketching different characters and bring them to life!

We also got to see the clean-up room, the special effects area and the special camera which was used to bring the cels to life!

FYI:
to produce a 24 minute film the team had to complete 34,650 drawings, add scenes from at least 300 backround paintings before finishing the work with musicale scores and special effects.

The last stop was a presentation of magical moments from the world's best loved animated films which was shown in the Disney Classic theater.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My conclusion.........

The Studios has added many new rides and attractions but it truly has lost the working studio theme it once had.


Very sad indeed. :(
 
I used to enjoy the studios a lot more as well, but lets be honest here. It was never a well laid out park and it was an attempt to beat Universal to the punch. AND it had a low attraction count.

Many Imagineers at the time were offended by the place.
 
Also, I can't remember for sure, but I beleive the world passports had different restrictions from what we now call park hopping.
 
Yoho I see your point 100% on the elasticity of demand from repeat guests. I tend to take a different point of view as far as the impact a slowing economy will have however. Usually luxury items are the first to go during tough times, and a WDW vacation without a doubt fits that description. But I think we underestimate how many people view their Disney vacation as a "must do" and will choose to cut elsewhere before cutting Disney. Perhaps they will stay in a moderate instead of deluxe. Maybe it will be 5 nights instead of 7, but in my opinion, people will find a way to get their vacation, because to many its a requirement not a choice. I agree that they will experience a slow down during tough times, but I think we just differ to what degree....

And I agree 100% as well with the thoughts on the Studios. The loss of the true Studio feel was a big one, and I agree that its never been the same since. As a kid, I was selected to do the bumble bee, and I will always carry that memory with me. But I still think its a great park, and there are plenty of places for memories to be made. Do I like American Idol, no. But millions do, and for the AI fan that is selected to perform, that memory will be no less magical than the bumble bee was for me. And when AI becomes a thing of the past, Disney will evolve and find something else to fill the void....
 
Also, I can't remember for sure, but I beleive the world passports had different restrictions from what we now call park hopping.

No restictions that I know of . We had unlimited use of both the MK and Epcot. We could hop on the monorail and go back and forth as much as we wanted each day. The Passports did not include the water parks but niether did the park hoppers. The water parks were only included with a plus option in the Park Hoppers.
 
....

And I agree 100% as well with the thoughts on the Studios. The loss of the true Studio feel was a big one, and I agree that its never been the same since. As a kid, I was selected to do the bumble bee, and I will always carry that memory with me. But I still think its a great park, and there are plenty of places for memories to be made. Do I like American Idol, no. But millions do, and for the AI fan that is selected to perform, that memory will be no less magical than the bumble bee was for me. And when AI becomes a thing of the past, Disney will evolve and find something else to fill the void....

Over the years I also have learned that there will always be change.
Things either evolve or become exitict.

The Stuido's are evolving into more of a theme park and less of a " studio" and while some like the changes others do not. Even so like them or not I must say that I think some of the changes that are taking place at WDW does take it's cues from our younger generation.

There are a lot rumors about new attractions coming to the parks( Little Mermaid ride, Snow White/7 Dwarf coaster, Pixie Hallow, Monsters, Inc. Coaster, Star Tours 2, a Jules Verne type land, with the wet/dry 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea as well as Journey into the Center of the Earth , etc. Some will come others might not but they sound very encouraging and I for one am looking forward to new additions to the parks.

Just my 2 cents.
 
[B]As for increased crowd turn-out-we have to keep in mind the fall of the U.S. dollar. Our dollar value has brought international visitors to our shores in droves!
We cannot overlook the importance of these guests (and their county's stronger dollar). Even flying OVERSEAS-Disney has became an extremely affordable vacation...some coming several times a year.


oooooh-Rutgers-see what you started. ;)[/B]
 
There are a lot rumors about new attractions coming to the parks( Little Mermaid ride, Snow White/7 Dwarf coaster, Pixie Hallow, Monsters, Inc. Coaster, Star Tours 2, a Jules Verne type land, with the wet/dry 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea as well as Journey into the Center of the Earth , etc. Some will come others might not but they sound very encouraging and I for one am looking forward to new additions to the parks.
Just my 2 cents.
Unfortunately all we've had recently is rumors, the only significant new attraction at WDW has been Expedition Everest. That's one attraction out of probably hundreds. Looking down the rumors board there have been probably 25 rumors for new attractions and how many of those have actually been announced? NONE! It seems like Disney expects to keep people excited was rumors and not new attractions. Sooner or later everyone will catch on and people's enthusiasm will wane.
 
As a matter of fact, that is exactly what they are doing. Flood the internet with rumors to keep the masses in line.

AV used to say Eisner the Emperor had no clothes, now it applies to the whole company.

Cheaper to get some pixie duster on the internet to toe the company line than to actually build anything.
 

New Posts


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom