So, who has led since Eisner....and do we like him/her?

....Unfortunately, there is a vast, almost insurmountable difference between the Disney of the 1990’s (including the present) and the Disney that Walt built!

And therein lays the rub!!

I agree.

The Disney theme park that Walt built is in California.

Unfortately he passed away before the land was cleared for WDW and his brother Roy along with other team members tried to carry out some of Walt's Plans.

Also, I just want to add while I am lamenting.... If Walt ever built a Future World or a World showcase it would not have been called Epcot.

The EPCOT Walt designed was to be an experimental prototype community (and community was a carefully chosen word) of tomorrow. In other words it was going to be a futuristic community where families would live, children would go to school, and parents would work. Walt wanted to use futuristic transportation and the very latest in technology in this community. It was to be everchanging. Always the newest and best technology had to offer.
The Epcot we enjoy today was not at all in Walt's plans. Walt once refereed to EPCOT as "being a Showcase to the world.'" They used that phrase and thus made World Showcase. As much as I enjoy Epcot it sometimes saddens me to think that Epcot is not at all how Walt envisioned it.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I agree.

The Disney theme park that Walt built is in California.
So far so good! Next…

Unfortately he passed away before the land was cleared for WDW and his brother Roy along with other team members tried to carry out some of Walt's Plans.
Once again, we agree.

Also, I just want to add while I am lamenting.... If Walt ever built a Future World or a World showcase it would not have been called Epcot.
Well of course not. EPCOT was used for his city. He would have called it something else. But as Shakespeare pointed out, a rose by any other name… Anyway, you get the point.

The EPCOT Walt designed was to be an experimental prototype community (and community was a carefully chosen word) of tomorrow. In other words it was going to be a futuristic community where families would live, children would go to school, and parents would work. Walt wanted to use futuristic transportation and the very latest in technology in this community. It was to be everchanging. Always the newest and best technology had to offer.
Very nicely put. It’s too bad that they didn’t have the bal… GUTS to carry it out.

The Epcot we enjoy today was not at all in Walt's plans.
You’re right. Not in his plans at all. BUT!!! Firmly entrenched in his philosophy!! And that is the difference I’m talking about.

Now, just so there is absolutely no confusion, I’m talking about E.P.C.O.T. from 1981, NOT the Epcot we have today. It was built and maintained for the first couple of years with Walt’s philosophy. And that was MAGIC!!!!

As much as I enjoy Epcot it sometimes saddens me to think that Epcot is not at all how Walt envisioned it.
Me too. But that doesn’t or shouldn’t tarnish the vision that they had for what has become Epcot. Call it Walt’s Second Kingdom instead of EPCOT if it makes you feel better. Call it anything you like. By any name the place literally dripped with the old Walt Philosophy. The last park to do so.
 
Only too happy to explain.

Ah! No! Not at all! We ALL acknowledge that Disney has changed. “With the times…” Well, it’s such a trite phrase, isn’t it? And one that clouds the issue. For if you accept it for face value then the logical next step is arguing about some space/time continuum or being caught in some distant past mode of thinking. In fact you very adeptly bring it up in your very next thought.

And this totally misses the point!!

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that we go back to $8.00 admissions and $1.00 e-tickets!! (YES! That’s how far back I go!) We’re not arguing price, economics, fine dinning, or the inevitable Florida afternoon thunderstorm (in reference to your “clouds in the sky” point).

NO! We’re talking about Disney philosophy. What Walt brought to the Amusement Park Business way back in 1955 (1984 doesn’t even come close!!!) I contend that it worked then and could work now if only the boneheads who are in charge could pull their heads out of their short term ledgers and use a little vision!

“Back in the day…” Disney was VERY, VERY expensive! I don’t know if you caught that in my previous post. That sort of vacation to a very newly wed couple nearly broke the bank! It was a whole bunch of money!!! But the value of the “DISNEY EXPERIENCE” was far, far greater than the price tag they put to it!!

No! No one wants a time warp. I just want a Disney value. A Disney Experience. A Disney Philosophy.

Read my tag lines. They are quotes from the man who started it all. Of course Ei$ner and his protégée refer to him as the “dead guy”. And they don’t mean in body only. In spirit and philosophy he is dead as well. Ei$ner saw to that personally!

Hey ThurlFan

Funny you should use the term “Sharp Pencil Guy”. That is the term Walt himself used for the bean counters of his day. And he HATED them!!!!
.

omg where have you been my whole life?? I couldn't agree more
 
zulemara,

I was here BIG TIME from 2000 until a couple years ago. A guy named YoHo, Peter Pirate and I (with a mere handful of others) nearly started this board. There would be weeks between posts back then.

Then I needed a break!!! It turned out to be a two year break! And this is the first thread I entered in quite a while. Glad I touched a nerve! Keep on fighting the good fight!
 

LANDBARON...OMG, LANDBARON...Stealing the posters hearts again are we...Aarrghhh.:thumbsup2

pirate:
 
PETER!!

Yes I thought I'd try my hand again. Seems like old times, doesn't it?

BTW, how do you like the last line of my signature. Even though we disagree on everything Disney (or at least we used to) I really don't want to see you dead! So!!! I put it in there, big and bold, for all to see!!
 
Just a park.
Chill out, move on.


It wasn't 'just a park' to Walt. It was all his dreams, ones that he was giddy with joy to share with the world.

It wasn't 'just a park' to the original imagineers. It was their art. It was their life's work.

This wasn't just some job they went to everyday to see how they could better make a profit. It wasn't a way to impress Wall Street with double digit returns.

And because of this, the difference between before 1980 and after 1980 slaps us in the face. That is what Baron is talking about. They approach 'Disney' from vastly different view points, the philosophy.

If you can't accept that, then you will never understand that it isn't price differences that we speak of in our posts.
 
AMEN!:thumbsup2
Different philosophy/marketing plan-call it what you want-it still doesn't change the base fact. Like it or lump it-the Disney of our youth is gone. Now, I have slowly been coming to this realization since the early 90's...so, I thought that the Disney gurus could not shock me. WRONG! The day I found out about the LTT going characterless...I cried. There I said it-I bawled like a baby. :sad:
The LTT characters celebrated OUR heritage. OUR freedom. OUR history.
Then I found out about FANTASMIC! It got ugly at our house for a couple of days. One of the most creative celebrations imaginable displaced by...it makes me want to gag just saying it...American Idol. =Sigh= :sad2:

Question on Walt's proposed city-so, then Celebration actually be closer to his vision than EPCOT?:confused3
 
It wasn't 'just a park' to Walt. It was all his dreams, ones that he was giddy with joy to share with the world.

It wasn't 'just a park' to the original imagineers. It was their art. It was their life's work.

This wasn't just some job they went to everyday to see how they could better make a profit. It wasn't a way to impress Wall Street with double digit returns.

And because of this, the difference between before 1980 and after 1980 slaps us in the face. That is what Baron is talking about. They approach 'Disney' from vastly different view points, the philosophy.

If you can't accept that, then you will never understand that it isn't price differences that we speak of in our posts.

You said it cristen! :thumbsup2
 
AMEN!:thumbsup2

Question on Walt's proposed city-so, then Celebration actually be closer to his vision than EPCOT?:confused3

As a pt Celebration resident I don't think anyone would construe this development as EPCOT like in any way.

It's a beautiful development with many Disney type features (basic design, use of landscaping, archetectural theme) but it only pushed the envelope in the area of residential development. It is not a city unto itself, only a HOA controlled neighborhood and grand as it was in scope it did not encompass things Walt would have embraced (technology, self containment, autonomy, etc.).
 
LMAO!!!

I must have really hit a nerve to bring some "landbaron" out of hibernation for two years and keep the rest of you bickering over Walt's long-lost philosophy. I know I speak for Walt when I say you are the last kinds of guests, patrons or fans he ever would have wanted championing his side. Everyone knows his quote about the parks never being finished and always evolving. Funny how you claim to long for his standards and goals and know absolutely nothing about the man or his means. But that's why I'm here... to educate you.

So go ahead and wallow in the past. I'll be at WDW enjoying the evolution and everything it has to offer. Thank you for showing your true colors. Your sour attitudes at the parks will not be missed.

Still LMAO!

BTW, I'm done with this thread so any responses are irrelevant.
 
LMAO!!!

I must have really hit a nerve to bring some "landbaron" out of hibernation for two years and keep the rest of you bickering over Walt's long-lost philosophy. I know I speak for Walt when I say you are the last kinds of guests, patrons or fans he ever would have wanted championing his side. Everyone knows his quote about the parks never being finished and always evolving. Funny how you claim to long for his standards and goals and know absolutely nothing about the man or his means. But that's why I'm here... to educate you.

So go ahead and wallow in the past. I'll be at WDW enjoying the evolution and everything it has to offer. Thank you for showing your true colors. Your sour attitudes at the parks will not be missed.

Still LMAO!

BTW, I'm done with this thread so any responses are irrelevant.

That figures........:sad2:
 
Now come on Condor, you cant just take your toys and go home. You and I share a similar opinion, although I would have expressed it differently.

See what you started Rutgers;) I have only been around the boards a year or so, but I learned early on the only topic more polarizing than Michael Eisner is refillable mugs:lmao:

So lets agree to disagree. The Disney of 1971 is gone forever, and has been for quite some time. The Disney of post 1984 is what we have, and I love it all the same. My kids wont experience the Disney of today, just as I never experienced the Disney of 1971. In my opinion, the "magic" is conveyed more by parents than Disney anyway. Michael Eisner didnt teach me that Disney was magical, my parents did. And I will do the same with my child. As adults we embrace the things from our childhood that were special. For many kids, its Yankee Stadium, the beach, or fishing in a local river. For me it was Disney, and I know I'm not alone. Regardless of what direction the parks go in, that can never be taken away from me, and therefore will always be magical.....
 
As a pt Celebration resident I don't think anyone would construe this development as EPCOT like in any way.

It's a beautiful development with many Disney type features (basic design, use of landscaping, archetectural theme) but it only pushed the envelope in the area of residential development. It is not a city unto itself, only a HOA controlled neighborhood and grand as it was in scope it did not encompass things Walt would have embraced (technology, self containment, autonomy, etc.).

You said you are a part time resident of Celebration. When did you actually buy there? Were you involved in that "lottery" system to buy into the area waaay back in the beginning? We were close to getting in on that, but could not sell our property back in N.J. at the time.
 
You said you are a part time resident of Celebration. When did you actually buy there? Were you involved in that "lottery" system to buy into the area waaay back in the beginning? We were close to getting in on that, but could not sell our property back in N.J. at the time.

mitros, been there going on 3 years...We got it primarily because my daughter is a competitive Jr. tennis player and Orlando is centrally located for that endeavor...P{lus it's a great hurricane sanctuary.

Things are bad there now because of the investment folks feeling the pain, there are some GREAT bargains that will be gone in a year or two and dare I say never to return.

As for this Condor person, you must be easily amused.:rotfl: Do you like Dinorama?:lmao: Oh look, I'm easily amused too.
 
BTW, I'm done with this thread so any responses are irrelevant.
DARN!! No time right now, but i have to say that you can bet - BIG MONEY - whenever anyone says that - he's still reading. The only things he's not doing is posting. Because he has nothing to say.

Peter!!!!
Do you like Dinorama?
LOL!!!! Beautifully put!!

Condor!! I know you can't answer without looking like a bigger idiot, but I also KNOW you're still reading. SO!! Keep checking back in. I'll try to answer tonight.
 
If the rumors of the Fantasyland expansion come ture I personally will be extremely impressed with Iger. I will even overlook the mistakes he did with the crazy Pixaring of the parks.
 
.......Question on Walt's proposed city-so, then Celebration actually be closer to his vision than EPCOT?:confused3

For reasons of lenght I edited a small part of the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_Prototype_Community_of_Tomorrow_(concept)

The Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow (EPCOT) was a concept developed by Walt Disney near the end of his lifetime. It was his intended purpose for the property purchased near Orlando, Florida that eventually became the Walt Disney World Resort, including Epcot (formerly known as EPCOT Center), to be a "community of the future" designed to stimulate American corporations to come up with new ideas for urban living. Of EPCOT, Walt Disney is quoted as saying, "EPCOT will take its cue from the new ideas and new technologies that are emerging from the forefront of American industry. It will be a community of tomorrow that will never be completed. It will always be showcasing and testing and demonstrating new materials and new systems."...............................



The Magic Kingdom

Walt never wanted to make a "sequel" to Disneyland, always stating that there will always be one Disneyland. When Walt presented his ideas to the Board of Directors, they were skeptical. They wanted assurance that people would come to visit this "Disney World". What they wanted was a surefire hit: a Disneyland-style park.

Walt initially objected, but eventually relented, and he used the park to his advantage. He put the theme park in the northmost corner of the Florida property. Disney wanted everyone to experience the rest of Disney World before getting to the theme park area.

The city

The EPCOT city itself, according to the concepts presented in the EPCOT film, was based on a very innovative but simple design: the radial concept. Based on a concept similar to the layout of Disneyland Park, the city radiates out like a wheel from a central core. The urban density of the area would dwindle as the city fanned out.

] Transportation

The city would be connected to the other points in Disney World with a main line of transportation -- the monorail. Walt Disney introduced the monorail at Disneyland in 1959. The monorail would cut through the center of the city, connecting EPCOT with the northern and southern points on the Disney World property.

Internal transportation would be provided by a whole new Disney transportation concept: the WEDway PeopleMover. The PeopleMover is a transportation system that never stops, relying on motors embedded in the track rather than in the vehicles. PeopleMover cars would transport residents from the metropolitan center to the outer residential areas. The PeopleMover concept was first demonstrated at Disneyland's Tomorrowland in 1967. The PeopleMover was also installed at the Magic Kingdom; it is now called Tomorrowland Transit Authority.

Because of these two modes of transportation, residents of EPCOT would not need a car. If they did, it would be used "only for weekend pleasure trips." The streets for cars would be kept separate from the main pedestrian areas. The main roads for both cars and supply trucks would travel underneath the city core, eliminating the risk of pedestrian accidents. This was also based on the concept that Walt Disney devised for Disneyland. He did not want his guests to see behind-the-scenes activity, such as supply trucks delivering goods to the city. Like the Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World, all supplies are discreetly delivered via underground tunnels.

The two systems, monorail and PeopleMover, would come together at the EPCOT Transportation Lobby. The Transportation Lobby would be located at ground level, above the busy automobile/truck roads. From the Lobby, a passenger riding the monorail from the Magic Kingdom Park to their home would disembark the monorail and transfer to the appropriate PeopleMover station.


City center
EPCOT's downtown and commercial areas would have been located in the central core of the city, away from the residential areas. The entire area would have been completely enclosed, unaffected by the outside elements. "The pedestrian will be king" in this area, free from the danger of cars and other vehicles.

At the center of the area would be a 30-story Cosmopolitan Hotel and Convention Center. This building was to have been the tallest building in EPCOT and could have been seen for miles, like the Matterhorn Bobsleds at Disneyland. The parking lot for hotel guests would have been located underneath the city core, right off of the vehicle throughway.

On the "roof" of the enclosed area would be the recreational area for hotel guests. The pool, tennis courts, basketball courts, shuffleboard, and other activities would have been located here. According to Imagineer Bob Gurr, Walt Disney pointed to one of the benches on the scale model of the area and declared, "This is where Lilly [his wife] and I will sit when this thing is finished, taking everything in".

Surrounding the hotel, inside the enclosure, would have been "shops and restaurants that reflect the culture and flavor of locations 'round the world". According to the concept art, these areas would be themed to each country, having the look and feel of each of the exotic locales. This concept eventually evolved into the World Showcase area of the Epcot theme park. The PeopleMover track would travel above these downtown shops and streets in a similar fashion as the system did in Disneyland. Preliminary plan indicated that the people who would have worked in these shops would have also lived in the city.


High-density residential area
On the rim of the city core would have been high-density apartment housing. This is where most of EPCOT's 20,000 citizens would have lived. Not much is discussed about the apartments themselves, although Walt Disney stated that no one in EPCOT would own their land. There would be no difference between an apartment and a home.

All renting rates would be modest and competitive with the surrounding market. Also, the housing would be constructed in such a way to ensure ease of change, so that new ideas/products can be used. A person returning from a hard day's work could very well come home to a kitchen with brand-new appliances in it.


Green belt
Separating the city core from the low-density residential area would be an expanse of grass areas, known to the planners as the "green belt". This is where the city services would be located. Establishments such as parks with playgrounds, community centers, and churches would be located here.


Low-density residential areas
Beyond the Green Belt was the low-density, single-family house neighborhoods. These areas would have resembled the petals on a flower, with the houses located on the rim of each "petal". Inside the "petal" was a vast green area. The area would have had paths for electric carts, light recreation areas for adults and play areas for children.

The PeopleMover station for each area would have also been located in the green area. The resident could simply walk to the station from their home and on to work. As stated before, residents would not really need a car to get around.

Like the apartments, the houses would be built to be easily changed.


Living and employment
As stated above, no one living in EPCOT would own their own land or home, thereby having no municipal voting rights (bond issues, etc.). Walt Disney wanted to exercise this control only to be able to change technology in the homes easily.

According to the film, everyone living in EPCOT would be employed, thereby preventing the formation of slums and ghettos. There would be no retirees, everyone would have had a job. Residents would have been employed at either the Magic Kingdom theme park, the city central core shopping areas, the hotel/convention center, the airport, the Welcome Center, or the industrial park. And, as the film states, "everyone living in EPCOT will have the responsibility to maintain this living blueprint of the future".


========================================

Celebration
In the early 1990s, the Walt Disney Company built an actual community on the Florida property called Celebration. It is a planned community that employs some of the ideas that Walt Disney envisioned, but on a significantly smaller scale. Unlike EPCOT, which was based on modernism and futurism, there is no radial design for Celebration. Celebration is designed based on new urbanism, and resembles a small American town, but has all the modern conveniences, without the revolutionary transportation ideas contained in the plans for EPCOT.
 
Thank you for that Linda, great read. Something I have never thought about until now... The model city that is in the People Mover, is that some sort of model for Epcot as described above?????
 


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