So, when is enough, enough-high risk pregnancy?

[DMRick]

And every member of the congregation can say no (however the OP just said it was in an email from a church group, she didn't say it went to every member). The OP said they asked for rides for their kids to religion classes and visits to the mom. They didn't ask for food, or money, or babysitters. Just rides to a religious class and visits to the mom. I can't tell from the OP why she is on bedrest, if it's something her doc said would work, as long as she was on bedrest, or how the OP knows she's risking her life and the babies life. The OP at one point said she didn't even know she was pregnant, found out through the letter, so maybe she doesn't know her that well to know what the womens doctor told her. Who knows the reasons, but if you think the women doesn't deserve help because she put herself at risk, then don't help. If it's like our church, there will be plenty others that will help no matter what the reason, to keep that mom in bed and the baby healthy.

Your sister isn't asking an entire congregation for help. I don't know if this woman the OP is talking about is having life threatening issues - I swear my doctor put me on bed rest just to stop me from running around. That's the difference.

 

[rie'smom]

But you don't seem to respect those who feel it's irresponsible to have a large family. You're being a hypocrite. Telling someone who supports choice but opposes large families (in general, or in this particular case) that they are obviously "for abortion" is neither true nor respectful.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying that I respect a woman's choice no matter what it is. My point is choice is each woman's privilege.
Calling someone a hypocrite is disrespectful, considered name calling, and can get you points.

 

[bumbershoot]

No, sorry I really was curious why more people don't adopt. I was just curious about the reasoning.

For us, adoption is just too expensive. At the point when we were only considering international we were too relatively broke for it. And I refuse to do what I've seen others do, asking for their friends and family for financial help to adopt. Then as I opened myself to domestic, it just seems too difficult. And still expensive. And I would want an infant.

It's incredibly sad for me, as I have dreamed of adopting since I knew what adopting was. I just never realized I should have been saving for it from that point on...

That is just incredibly sad. I'm adopted. I'm a little weird and geeky, which probably wouldn't have happend if I was blood relation to my parents, but I deserve just as much love as a blood child. No wonder I've never felt at home with my family, maybe some of them feel this way? I just had no idea that someone who wanted to be a parent could feel that way.

FWIW, my brother and I are entirely bio-related, and we are as different as different can be. Both of us can be athletic, but he does it in a MUCH cooler way than I do. He was popular with everyone, smart without effort, etc etc. I was shy, a drama geek, never ever cool.

And for a LONG time I felt I didn't fit into my family, but I'm totally bio-related. Just so you know, the feelings you have about your family are NOT by any means absolutely because you were adopted. Happens in other families all the time!

ONCE AGAIN-the issue is not how many kids they have or if they asked for help or not-the issue is would you risk your life, potentially leaving your children motherless to have another child. It isn't about driving in a car or other possible ACCIDENTS. This is about something that IS preventable.

This is all YOUR opinion, though. What is an acceptable risk and what isn't. YOUR beliefs say that she's at risk and that it's preventable. YOUR beliefs say that she should stop. Obviously, her beliefs disagree.

Heck, MY beliefs disagree! Bodies are amazing things, and just b/c something has happened x times doesn't mean it will happen x+1. Who knows, maybe all of this bedrest is bogus, and wouldn't have happened if she had had a different healthcare practitioner?

I have a friend who went into full blown ecclampsia shortly after the OB absolutely ignored her concerns about her blood pressure, saying it was "normal" and REFUSING to believe her that her blood pressure was usually VERY LOW, and that "normal" was entirely ABnormal for her. He refused to hear her, and a few days later her husband found her on the floor when he got home from work...with a different practitioner who could have read her chart and believed her, it could have been prevented.

If it had happened to me, I would have had no problems wanting more. But with her, she is too scared. But that's the difference...as soon as an MD starts talking, I start saying "liar liar liar" in my head (and sometimes out loud). But her own father is one, and so she trusts what her doctors say, even though it was one of her doctors that helped CAUSE the situation.

So her beliefs are her beliefs, and mine are mine, and if I were Queen of the universe, all would follow my beliefs, but unfortunately I'm not! And neither are you.

So try to understand that YOUR beliefs about her health are YOURS, they aren't right or wrong, they are just your beliefs.

She feels differently.

Its really no one's business why this couple chooses to have 8 children with high risk pregnancies. It is, afterall, their choice to continue to have children.

This is another "can't have it both ways" discussion. You cannot, on one hand, debate that a woman has a right to choose abortion; but not think that they have the right to choose to have a big family. Choice=choice regardless of what the choice being made is. It may not be YOUR choice, but it is HERS and that doesn't make it the wrong one.

I for one totally get what you're saying. I used to think I was pro-choice until I lived with a young woman who chose to end a pregnancy, and then a year later married the same guy and went on to have more kids. I had a VERY hard time while she was ending the pregnancy (we were in SC and she couldn't have the medical procedure there, and tried for a couple weeks with the Cohosh herbs, and I cannot tell you what that can do to another female living in the house, when cycles are in synch...), and it didn't help anything hat I was taking Embryology for school at the time.... She finally went up to NC for the procedure and I couldn't give her sympathy or empathy at all, just wished that she would have it and then let me adopt it...

Once I realized that I wasn't actually pro choice at all after that whole thing, I stopped thinking I was. So I can understand the idea that if you're going to be so judgy about large families, then you're also not in favor of choice...

Not sure how to get it all across, but I understand what you're saying!

I wasn't under the impression that the request came 'from this family in particular' but from a church group.

I didn't get that feeling.

PS- isn't breeders a derogatory term created by the gay movement against hetero couples.

Did anyone use that term? If so, they edited, or my Control-F isn't working. I saw "breed like rabbits", which I feel is rude, but not "breeders".

It's only the most die-hard, anti-children, Childfree by Choice people that I know who use that term... Had a friend who used it! In front of me. When DS was brand new and I was going to extremes to visit her (she was the first visit I made) just to prove that I wasn't going to dump her b/c I'd had a kid... And then I realized that it was never going to work b/c of how rude she was about the whole thing. She was so defensive about the friends that she felt had dumped her, that she created what she said she dind't want to have happen.

But anyway, she's married to a man, and used that term along with the others who were as anti-kid (seriously, she made jokes about putting a baby in an oven at a party) as she was...

 

[NHdisneylover]

How can you say you are pro-choice if you oppose someone's right to bear children?

If you say, "I am pro-choice. I support your right to have an abortion but I DO NOT support your right to have 8 kids", then you are in fact "pro-abortion" not "pro-choice".

You can think it is irresponsible all you want to, but that is your opinion. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just an opinion.

Can you quote who said they thought people should not have the RIGHT to have alrge families? I cannot find it I only saw those who felt having large families was a bad idea for one reason or another--but they did not say people should not have a right to do that with which they disagree.
Another example (since my first seems to ahev passed you by): I think Bicker would not argue against your RIGHT to eat meat if you so choose (I don't think he wants vegetarianism mandated by law), however, he may still belive it is morally wrong to eat meat and he may even try to convince of his point of view (all the while protecting your right to have it). Or, you often see a quote that says somethign like this "I may disagree with your opinion, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." There are MANY, MANY things which I think peopel should have the RIGHT to do which I do not think are the correct choices.

By some of the logic on this thread, my sister, a doctor, should not have had any more children after her first. She was 28, fit, healthy and had excellent medical care. her daughter was full term, and the pregnancy had no complications up until the birth. Shortly after my niece's birth, my sister began hemorrhaging. She nearly died on the table before they got the bleeding stopped. Afterward, all the doctors agreed that it was just a freaky thing. None discouraged her from having other children. She is now the mother of two other children, the youngest being 4 months old. Her second and third pregnancies were without complications at all.

Not at all. The best medical advice your sister could get said this was a freak thing that was not liekly to recurr. Her second pregnancy had just as good of odds of being FINE as her first had had before things went sour.
If they had told her it was likely that she would hemmorrage like that again and that they had discovered a reason why which could not be fixed and that the odds were only 50/50 that she would survive another pregnancy (or even 80/20) THEN I personally would think she was making a poor decision to have a second pregnancy (though i would still think she was within her RIGHTS to take that gamble).

I am confused about why you are confused regarding the "breeders" term. According to the article, the gay population, who had been welcomed, started being nasty to heterosexuals, calling them breeders. I can't believe that even bringing that bit of information to light would be thought of as derogatory. Do you think that just because a group of people are gay, that this gives them the ok to insult other people. Is this group of people that special. I don't think so.

I do find the term breeders derogatory, but not the article stating that it was a slang term used by the gay community, it is what it is, and if they started that term, shame on them. It is just as unacceptable as being singled out because yo are gay. Or maybe I am confused as to what you are saying.

Sorry, but I am not the least bit PC I call it as I see it, and wrong is wrong, no matter who is dong the name calling.

Well, for starters--while I totally agree the use of breeders in this fashion IS deragoatory it was neither invented by a gay rights group--not was it in any way created by, used by, or endorsed by "THE gay rights movement" (rather in the article one little group that is part of a much larger fight happened to use the term). Most Christians do not act like Fred Phelps, most Muslims do not try to kill non muslims and most queer people do not hate or insult straight people. This is why the tone of the post bothered me--it was essentially saying everyone invovled in fighting for queer rights (or at least those in charge of the political movement) is responsible for one smaller group's use of a borrowed offensive term.

Meh. The term "breeders" has been around for a long time and didn't start in Provincetown. The Childfree by Choice community has been using it forever. It was used on this very board back in 2003, 3 full years before the incident in P-Town. In any case, yes it is an offensive word.

Yep. It was being used (in similar manner) back when I was in high school in teh late 80s and early 90s to describe people who had kids but then pretty much ignored them (they "bred" but did not "parent").

 

[SaraJayne]

Unless you've been there, you can't really understand.

That being said, eight is sort of a lot of kids. If the kids can be supported then okay!

Eight is a lot of kids ~ not sort of.

In this day and I age, I feel it's irresponsible to have that many children, even if you can "afford" them. The world's resources aren't infinite.

 

[Just*the*ten*of*us]

ETA: I'm not trying to pick on you or start a fight. Again, you have every right to have as many children as you want and I don't wish to make it seem as if I am "holier than thou." You did say that you thought everyone was scared to speak up on the number of children she had. I answered because I am not afraid to state my opinion on overpopulation.

oh, no worries, at NO point in your post did you come off as holier than anybody!

 

[bigbabyblues]

No, the first high-risk one would have been the last one for me.

 

[cm8]

It all comes down to being a personal choice. The same choice she made to have another regardless of her situation, and the choice you have to not help assist her or her family.

It is not my place or business to tell another adult what they can and can not do with their body. It is my right to not provide assistance and something I would exercise if it was against my belief.

 

[Minnie]

Again, just because it is not your choice doe not make it a bad choice. And it is a contradiction to say that you are "pro-choice" but only if its the choice you want to rally for. Can't have it that way.

Ridiculous

I agree. One can think people should have the right to make their own decisions, and at the same time wish they would make good decisions.

This

 

[Minnie]

Eight is a lot of kids ~ not sort of.

In this day and I age, I feel it's irresponsible to have that many children, even if you can "afford" them. The world's resources aren't infinite.

Agreed.... Family member is a doctor with his 10th child on the way. He can easily afford the children but IMO he is being irresponsible.

 

[tiggersbombed2]

Plain old fashioned stupid in my book. If you can't take care of business while pregnant, then don't get pregnant again. 1, 2, heck even three kids if it's your heart's desire, go for it. But 8? That's being selfish, pure and simple selfish.

 

[rie'smom]

Plain old fashioned stupid in my book. If you can't take care of business while pregnant, then don't get pregnant again. 1, 2, heck even three kids if it's your heart's desire, go for it. But 8? That's being selfish, pure and simple selfish.

Why is it selfish to have 8 kids? Is it more selfish than someone who decides to have 1 because they don't want to be bothered by a bunch of kids or because they want to live a certain lifestyle and don't want to spend a lot of money on raising kids?

 

[TappinNYC]

If you have the money, spit them out! Don't find it selfish at all. As long as I don't have to pay for them with my tax dollars, I don't care how many anybody has.

 

[MistressMerryweather]

Plain old fashioned stupid in my book. If you can't take care of business while pregnant, then don't get pregnant again. 1, 2, heck even three kids if it's your heart's desire, go for it. But 8? That's being selfish, pure and simple selfish.

Nah, what's selfish is the way that people, Americans specifically(but a lot of others, too) treat this planet. Our resources are not infinite because we are selfish and it has nothing to do with the number of children we have. So who is to say what selfish is?

 

[luvsJack]

Ridiculous



This

Its ridiculous that someone should have the choice to have 8 kids without being judged?

I get what everyone is saying about earth's resources and all. But there is a lot more that we can do to save our earth that has nothing to do with limiting the number of children a person can have.

If that person is taking care of and loving their children and have a plan in place in case something goes wrong (either with the pregnancy or with the next bus coming by), then how are they being irresponsible?

If you do feel its irresponsible, just where do think the limit should be?

 

[abdmom]

Its ridiculous that someone should have the choice to have 8 kids without being judged?

I get what everyone is saying about earth's resources and all. But there is a lot more that we can do to save our earth that has nothing to do with limiting the number of children a person can have.

If that person is taking care of and loving their children and have a plan in place in case something goes wrong (either with the pregnancy or with the next bus coming by), then how are they being irresponsible?

If you do feel its irresponsible, just where do think the limit should be?

I think the point of the OP is that, they can't take care of all those children. The mother is on bedrest and cannot take take care of her family. She is also putting her own health at severe risk, and has for the past 6 kids. So, they are asking other people for help taking care of them, and they have asked for help in the past. Obviously, their behaviour is not in the best interests of their family and they are asking others to pick up the slack.

 

[robinb]

Its ridiculous that someone should have the choice to have 8 kids without being judged?

ETA: I think that having 8 kids is unusual and at the very least becomes a topic of conversation. Let's face it, people's reproductive decisions are judged every day. Here on the DIS and IRL. I have personally been judged more than once for being "one and done" with my DD. Other people are judged for "trying for a girl/boy" when they already have multiple kids of the same gender. Other people are judged for having kids after they already have one of more disabled children. Other people are judged for having an abortion when they have a debilitating disease like AIDS. Other people are judged for having a child when they have AIDS. Other people are judged for not having kids at all by choice.

What is the big thing here on the DIS about someone being "judgmental" about something you don't agree with? Sometimes I think that people use the word "judgmental" towards another poster just to tell them to shut up and keep their opinion to themselves.

IMO, judging someone against your own moral and personal attributes (wrong word, but it's early!) a perfectly normal human response. Are you saying that YOU have never judged some nameless faceless person brought up here on the DIS?

ETA: I don't think YOU are stifling the discussion, it's just something that has been in the corner of my mind for a while.

 

[tiggersbombed2]

Why is it selfish to have 8 kids? Is it more selfish than someone who decides to have 1 because they don't want to be bothered by a bunch of kids or because they want to live a certain lifestyle and don't want to spend a lot of money on raising kids?

Oh hell no...have as many kids as you want, it's selfish to expect people to have to help you when you KNOW it's going to be a rough road. If you want 8 kids, go for it, but to "expect" people to carry you thru it 7 times is selfish to me. Not only to the people having to help, but to the kids you already have. Why take a chance leaving those kids momless?

 

[kaytieeldr]

they were asking their church group for help transporting their kids. Have you never had to ask anyone for help? Do you have a child(ren)? I don't make a habit of asking for help but when my daughter was younger and the only child we had at home, I was sick and had to ask for help.

There's the difference. These people apparently DO make a habit of asking for, even expecting, help from the members of their church. Plus, while it's likely there will be volunteers, more children makes it harder on the volunteers; probably fewer step forward each time.

Frankly, it sounds to me as if they're taking advantage of others' good will. What's wrong with planning ahead? Line up help before you need it? Arrange for rides for the children and visits for the mom in advance - even before you get pregnant?

 

[kaytieeldr]

That is just incredibly sad. I'm adopted. I'm a little weird and geeky, which probably wouldn't have happend if I was blood relation to my parents, but I deserve just as much love as a blood child. No wonder I've never felt at home with my family, maybe some of them feel this way? I just had no idea that someone who wanted to be a parent could feel that way.

Oh, heck. I'm (more than) a little weird and geeky, and I was raised by the parents who gave birth to me. Ditto for my brother; yet other siblings - note, this was back before it was a horror to have large families, and when my parents needed help they turned to friends and relatives, and returned favors - are completely normal.

Geekiness isn't how you were raised or loved (and you were, and are, loved); it's just who you are.