So Iran doesn't have a nuclear program either...

[salmoneous]

do undermine our ability to keep us as safe as possible.

I'm curious - do you believe we should do everything we can to "keep us as safe as possible", or is it acceptable to make some compromises in the interests of freedom and liberty? For example, it's pretty clear the 4th Amendment makes it harder for law enforcement to do their job, stop bad guys, etc. Would would be safer without it. Yet the founders felt the issues of liberty and freedom provided by the Amendment were important enough to make us a little bit less safe. Was that a mistake?

 

[profdsny]

As one of the founders of our country said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Ben Franklin

 

[Charade]

As one of the founders of our country said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Ben Franklin

But we were already at that place a long, long time before GWB got to the Whitehouse.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

As one of the founders of our country said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Ben Franklin

Obviously, this Franklin character is one of those unpatriotic "blame America first" nut-jobs. Who is he, guest host of the Randi Rhodes Show this week or something? Someone should really look into tapping his international phone calls...

 

[Charade]

Obviously, this Franklin character is one of those unpatriotic "blame America first" nut-jobs. Who is he, guest host of the Randi Rhodes Show this week or something? Someone should really look into tapping his international phone calls...

Obviously you're ignoring that *fact* that we've had ever increasing reductions of our liberties forced upon us ever since good ol' Ben uttered those words.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Obviously you're ignoring that *fact* that we've had ever increasing reductions of our liberties forced upon us ever since good ol' Ben uttered those words.

Ah...I see. So when it comes to taking away Constitutional liberties, you're of the kneejerk mindset of "The more the merrier!"? Good to know.

 

[Mr Man]

Interesting article in the Telegraph on British Intelligence/Govt. position on the NIE.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/09/wiran109.xml

I agree with their assessment especially on the probability of an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities because of this flawed NIE. The Israelis will "jump ugly" if they believe they have no reasonable alternative. They have proven it in the past. We do not want this to happen, as it will have a terrible effect on stated US policy of promoting Freedom, Democracy and stability in the Middle East.

I continue to have a huge problem with this NIE.

Note, I did a Lexis search last night on the "George Bush lied" stuff. As soon as I get a chance I will review results and post my views on what I found. I will likely start another thread where we can go through these accused lies dispassionately and move the focus of this thread back where it needs to be:

Hyper-partisan politics putting US lives at risk.

JMO.

 

[salmoneous]

Interesting article in the Telegraph on British Intelligence/Govt. position on the NIE.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/09/wiran109.xml

Um, keep in mind this is the Telegraph. Every six months they publish a new story staying Israel is about to bomb Iran - crediting the information to their sources in the intelligence world. And every six months they are wrong. And none of the other papers or folks with sources in the intelligence world here the same thing the Telegraph does.

So take this story as the Telegraph's position, not the British Intelligence/Govt's .

Pst - If the release of the NIE is so evil, why does even Dick Cheney say it was a good idea?

 

[ford family]

Interesting article in the Telegraph on British Intelligence/Govt. position on the NIE.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/09/wiran109.xml

I agree with their assessment especially on the probability of an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities because of this flawed NIE. The Israelis will "jump ugly" if they believe they have no reasonable alternative. They have proven it in the past. We do not want this to happen, as it will have a terrible effect on stated US policy of promoting Freedom, Democracy and stability in the Middle East.

I continue to have a huge problem with this NIE.

JMO.

There was an article a few days earlier (I think by Con Coughlin) that said that the NIE changed their stance because of information received from a high level defector, Ali-Reza Asgari, Iran's deputy defence minister. Without that, it suggests, there would have not have been any change. Would they be capable of spotting a double agent, do you think? Hope so!

ford family

 

[Mr Man]

Pst - If the release of the NIE is so evil, why does even Dick Cheney say it was a good idea?

I can understand why VP Cheney would see some good in it.......

.......as it suggests the Iranian nuclear program was halted in 2003 as a result of the massive and successful use of US military power in Iraq. No carrots.....just a big stick......

 

[salmoneous]

I can understand why VP Cheney would see some good in it........

He didn't just "see some good in it". He thinks it's a good thing. If everything you believe about the harm its release has/will cause is true, why would Dick Cheney think it good?

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

As one of the founders of our country said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Ben Franklin

Our society disagreed with Ben a long time ago on that one.

 

[LuvDuke]

As one of the founders of our country said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Ben Franklin

Our society disagreed with Ben a long time ago on that one.

You can't make this stuff up.

Your society disagreed.

The rest of us aren't so afraid of our own shadows that we'd give up our Constitutional rights just so George Bush could keep us safe.

Which, btw, is a joke in itself.

 

[Fitswimmer]

You can't make this stuff up.

Your society disagreed.

The rest of us aren't so afraid of our own shadows that we'd give up our Constitutional rights just so George Bush could keep us safe.

Which, btw, is a joke in itself.

Just wait until a Democratic president uses those powers-I can already hear the outrage.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Just wait until a Democratic president uses those powers-I can already hear the outrage.

As far as this kid's concerned, it'll be music to my ears!

 

[Duckfan-in-Chicago]

As one of the founders of our country said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Ben Franklin

I like BF a lot. He was a brilliant man/inventor. Out of all the people who signed the Declaration, he'd prob. be the one I'd like to sit down and have a drink with.

But he had very little to do with the formation of our government as it stands today as he was asleep, drunk, or out of the country during most of it's formation. Not to take anything away from him, because if he didn't side with the revolution and use his world influence to help in getting other countries to help in finance, it may not have gone as smoothly as it did.

I have a problem, also, with most statements that are absolutes like the one above.

A few quick things that I'd consider giving up a little liberty to gain security since he uttered those words:A Federal, state, and local police departments. FDA, OSHA. Which do you propose we axe first?

 

[Fitswimmer]

As far as this kid's concerned, it'll be music to my ears!

I wish the search worked better so I would be able to find some of these posts when President Clinton or President Obama tries to do the same things that GW and company are doing now.

 

[salmoneous]

But he had very little to do with the formation of our government as it stands today

That said - the folks who did have a lot to do with it - folks who faced bigger threats than we face today - built protections on freedom and liberty into the Constitution, even though those protections would hamper the government's ability to keep us as safe as possible. Were they wrong?

Like you, I'm not usually a fan of absolutes. We have to keep a balance between safety and liberty. There are a number of folks who absolutely want as much safety as possible - and are willing to sacrifices almost any liberty to get there.

 

[Mr Man]

He didn't just "see some good in it". He thinks it's a good thing. If everything you believe about the harm its release has/will cause is true, why would Dick Cheney think it good?

I read excerpts from the articles I believe you are speaking of. I do not think he says the NIE report is a good thing. He sounds somewhat neutral to my ears (or he is damning them with faint praise.......).

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7234.html

He said,

“I don’t have any reason to question what the [intelligence] community has produced,” he said. “Now, there are things they don’t know. There’s always the possibility that circumstances will change. But I think they’ve done the best job they can with the intelligence that’s available.”

Then again, perhaps VP Cheney is in a top-level leadership position and is more concerned with strategy than tactics. I certainly hope there are people in these govt organization who ARE looking into this. From the same article:

snip
[Asked how badly the National Intelligence Estimate would complicate the administration’s strategic objectives, the vice president replied:] “We don’t get to say we only pursue those policies if they’re easy. It’s very important, I think, and the president clearly does, that we proceed down the road of trying to persuade Iran diplomatically to give up their efforts to enrich uranium. That has not changed. There’s nothing in the NIE that said we should be — not be concerned about their enrichment activities.”

Now, I guess we can simply sit back and see how serious our allies (within much closer striking distance from Iran than us) are truly concerned about Iran's weapons programs......... remove the stick and rely on carrots only..... Carrots mean nothing without the stick. JMO

In fairness to your post above, VP Cheney was happy with the timing of the release of the NIE (get it out in advance of the inevitable leaks). What a way to run a railroad eh?......

Sorry you had to listen to him slam the Democrats in Congress in the earlier part of the interview. Love the........

“They are not carrying the big sticks I would have expected.”

comment.....hehehehehe

Regards,

 

[Mr Man]

Out of all the people who signed the Declaration, he'd prob. be the one I'd like to sit down and have a drink with.

Duckfan,

I agree. I have always admired Benjamin Franklin from afar. Our first "elder statesman". I also have Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton on the short list.......

A few quick things that I'd consider giving up a little liberty to gain security since he uttered those words:A Federal, state, and local police departments. FDA, OSHA. Which do you propose we axe first?

You can axe these and I will still feel secure.......

ED Dept. of Education
HHS Dept of Health and Human Services
HUD Dept. of Housing and Urban Development.
IRS
15 Federal Intelligence Agencies (how about just one agency.....but a competent organization please).