Skyliner stroller red tag capacity limited ADA discrimination

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

I brought up DAS because it limits party size. So does the wheelchair-accessible vehicle for Small World. And other attractions. Are you aware that only a limited number of ride vehicles in a “run” can have a wheelchair? That is due to evacuation needs, not necessarily anything else (like weight as you keep insinuating).

To my knowledge there are no “electronic” powered strollers. All are manual push. Limits are based on more than just weight — namely emergency evacuation procedures.

Yes I understand the DAS party size limit, but it isn’t anything I’ve researched or been informed about to give an opinion on. I only mention that because I understand the parallel you are trying to make but I’m just not able to comment on it right now because I’m uninformed regarding it.

again the discrimination here is because Disney is treating people who do not have a red tag to one capacity and people without a red tag to a higher capacity. People without red tags are not allowed on small world, thus this discrimination isn’t applying there.

This is actually a very limited situation. Regarding evacuations on the skyliner, an infant who doesn’t walk will just be as difficult to evacuate whether they have a red tag stroller or non-red tag stroller. Again not all disABILITES are the same nor can stereotypes be used.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

See this is exactly the hole in your logic. I’m not stereotyping SAW users, I’m acknowledging mobility and other SAW needs do not sit in complete isolation from other issues related to using Disney transportation. You also think it’s a grievous harm to split up a group over the size of 6… but also, this is completely consistent with ADA accommodations in every imaginable setting, including movie theatres, as described in exactly the case you lean on.

if we are comparing it to a movie theater it would be like having a row of ten seats. If you place a wheelchair at the end of that row only 5 other people can sit in that row, the other seats must remain empty. If no wheelchair is placed at the end of that row then all ten seats can be used. That is the similar argument if you want to use the movie theater example

 

[lanejudy]

But here there are no safety concerns from the device because that same device is used regularly in cabins that have a capacity of up to ten people.

Have you considered safety concerns related to evacuating a gondola 5+ stories up in the air? Safety of all riders in that gondola as well as safety of the emergency personnel? CMs are not adjusting gondola capacity based on ages of individuals — some using SAW may be infants but others may be 10-yr-olds.

again the discrimination here is because Disney is treating people who do not have a red tag to one capacity and people without a red tag to a higher capacity. People without red tags are not allowed on small world, thus this discrimination isn’t applying there.

The red tag (which is sometimes various other colors BTW) simply identifies a disability is present. So comparing parties with and without disabilities is absolutely relevant.

 

[lanejudy]

if we are comparing it to a movie theater it would be like having a row of ten seats. If you place a wheelchair at the end of that row only 5 other people can sit in that row, the other seats must remain empty. If no wheelchair is placed at the end of that row then all ten seats can be used. That is the similar argument if you want to use the movie theater example

No, the comparison is similar to any accessible attraction seating at WDW. There is 1 companion seat allotted for each mobility device; the rest of the party must sit elsewhere — maybe the row in front or other. That’s true whether it’s a wheelchair, ECV, or an SAW with a child who ends up on a lap.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

Have you considered safety concerns related to evacuating a gondola 5+ stories up in the air? Safety of all riders in that gondola as well as safety of the emergency personnel? CMs are not adjusting gondola capacity based on ages of individuals — some using SAW may be infants but others may be 10-yr-olds.



The red tag (which is sometimes various other colors BTW) simply identifies a disability is present. So comparing parties with and without disabilities is absolutely relevant.

Again, people can have mobility issues even if they do not use a mobility device. A skyliner can have ten people all with mobility related issues but none have a mobility device with them. Just because someone has a mobility device also does not mean they have a mobility disability. Again I understand the issues with evacuation five stories up, but making generalizing and stereotypes about people who use mobility devices is not productive or aligned with the ADA.

Yes you are correct that the red tag can be different colors like purple. It’s lack of presence does NOT indicate that a party does not have a member(s) with a disability nor does the lack of a mobility device indicate that no member has a disability. There are many individuals with disabilities who do not use mobility devices, who may struggle with an evacuation five stories up.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

No, the comparison is similar to any accessible attraction seating at WDW. There is 1 companion seat allotted for each mobility device; the rest of the party must sit elsewhere — maybe the row in front or other. That’s true whether it’s a wheelchair, ECV, or an SAW with a child who ends up on a lap.

that is my understand also, but I’m not sure regarding the legality of those limits, this issue is very limited to just this one particular situation. At the frozen show it’s a spot for the mobility device, then two seats in front row and then normally as many seats in second row as needed. Normally that is adequate for all the parties, but if it’s not I’m unsure about the legality of that situation nor is it a hypothetical I can give an opinion on.

 

[Joanna71985]

The red tag is used throughout Walt Disney world. You can get the red tag at Disney Springs also

That doesn't mean anything though (as it's just being handed out there). You can also purchase MNSSHP tickets at DS, but that doesn't change the fact that they are only good at MK

I propose we stop replying to this person altogether. He's bouncing ideas and may learn something useful from us.

hmm, that's a good idea

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

That doesn't mean anything though (as it's just being handed out there). You can also purchase MNSSHP tickets at DS, but that doesn't change the fact that they are only good at MK



hmm, that's a good idea

The red tag is directly placed onto the stroller by the cast member

 

[lanejudy]

Again, people can have mobility issues even if they do not use a mobility device. A skyliner can have ten people all with mobility related issues but none have a mobility device with them. Just because someone has a mobility device also does not mean they have a mobility disability. Again I understand the issues with evacuation five stories up, but making generalizing and stereotypes about people who use mobility devices is not productive or aligned with the ADA.

A wheelchair is considered to need evacuating along with the individual except when it is physically impossible to do so. By virtue of the fact the individual has a wheelchair they need it to get around. While that may not be the case 100% of the time, it is the assumption when standards and evacuation procedures are created. A stroller-as-wheelchair is exactly that — considered a wheelchair. Not every child is small enough to be carried and leave the stroller behind. Sure in actual evacuation the rescue personnel may ask, but as far as procedures for loading and capacity it’s based on a wheelchair needing evacuation with the individual.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Yes correct, groups want to travel together.

We've taken our 12 y/o in an adaptive stroller onto skyliner with just 3 of us. No way would the cabin have reasonably or safely fit 7 other adults with her staying in the stroller.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

A wheelchair is considered to need evacuating along with the individual except when it is physically impossible to do so. By virtue of the fact the individual has a wheelchair they need it to get around. While that may not be the case 100% of the time, it is the assumption when standards and evacuation procedures are created. A stroller-as-wheelchair is exactly that — considered a wheelchair. Not every child is small enough to be carried and leave the stroller behind. Sure in actual evacuation the rescue personnel may ask, but as far as procedures for loading and capacity it’s based on a wheelchair needing evacuation with the individual.

That is not an appropriate assumption to make. Wheelchairs are used for many reasons that do not involve a mobility issue. During an evacuation many times the mobility devices does need to be left behind, it is why they ask if a person is able to be transported from their mobility devices during an evacuation from the skyliner I don’t think the EVC’s are being evacuated also.

On the skyliner if the stroller with the red tag is folded up then the capacity is at 10. The individual who needs that stroller is still in the cabin, the only difference is the mobility device is folded up. Just to make it clear. If that stroller did not have a red tag then it would not need to be folded in order to get to the gen capacity.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Are you actually an attorney? If you read the original post you would see that the red tagged strollers and non-red tagged strollers are the exact same strollers except for a less than one ounce tag. There is no additional space needed to manuver the same stroller. Additionally, there is no space to really maneuver a stroller regardless of whether it had a red tag or not within the cabins.

I’m truly questioning if you are an attorney or not since you can’t grasp the basic issue here of treating parties differently based on a less than one ounce tag.

This depends on the child needing the stroller. My 12 y/o is in an adaptive stroller that is bigger than the city mini she used through age like 8 or so.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

We've taken our 12 y/o in an adaptive stroller onto skyliner with just 3 of us. No way would the cabin have reasonably or safely fit 7 other adults with her staying in the stroller.

Again, just because your party did not want to have other adults in your cabin doesn’t mean others do. It could also be a group that has 6 children in it and 4 adults. The children take up much less space. Not all groups take up the same amount of space. We are also not saying that families should be required to all go into the same cabin, if the family says it would be uncomfortable then they shouldn’t, what we are saying is they should have the ability to just like another family/party.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

This depends on the child needing the stroller. My 12 y/o is in an adaptive stroller that is bigger than the city mini she used through age like 8 or so.

You are right it does depend, I was just giving one particular example to illustrate how the policy is used in practice that could have unintended consequences.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Again, just because your party did not want to have other adults in your cabin doesn’t mean others do. It could also be a group that has 6 children in it and 4 adults. The children take up much less space. Not all groups take up the same amount of space. We are also not saying that families should be required to all go into the same cabin, if the family says it would be uncomfortable then they shouldn’t, what we are saying is they should have the ability to just like another family/party.

You'd have more credibility if you didn't change people's statements. I said nothing about not wanting to have other adults at all. I said the cabin would not have physically fit 7 (a specific number) other adults safely. (And I did specify adults).

It would have comfortably fit 2 other average size adults. An additional 3 would have been very tight. We will have a party of 5 this fall, 4 adults + 13 y/o SAW user, and based on our experience there will not physically be room for anyone else. Adaptive strollers are often longer front to back, which takes up more of the bench room in the Skyliner.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

You make a lot of statements like “wheelchairs are used for many things not related to mobility” but what fraction of people use wheelchairs without having a mobility issue? 5%? 10%? Would you suggest that Disney interrogate every SAW and wheelchair user to determine the exact nature of their needs in order to see whether they would qualify for a 10 person or a 6 person ride? I’m sure that would go over REALLY well.

It’s better for Disney to have - and use - one consistent policy that covers the vast majority of guests rather than worrying about fringe cases.

I’m still trying to figure out your angle here as you seem to have an axe to grind but with nothing from the Disney side to actually back it up. After your bus incident did you then have a run in on the skyliner? Of all of the places where someone might push, this seems like a really silly one to choose.

 

[lanejudy]

That is not an appropriate assumption to make. Wheelchairs are used for many reasons that do not involve a mobility issue. During an evacuation many times the mobility devices does need to be left behind, it is why they ask if a person is able to be transported from their mobility devices during an evacuation from the skyliner I don’t think the EVC’s are being evacuated also.

A wheelchair is an “mobility device” thus by definition it is used for mobility. While some users may not need one full time and it may have other uses, it is primarily considered to be assisting or providing the user with a mobility need. Evacuation standards, and thus occupancy limits driven by said standards, absolutely are based on that assumption.

Again, though, it goes back to whether the actual rule on WDW Skyliner is 6+open stroller. I still believe that is the rule which may not be consistently enforced.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

You'd have more credibility if you didn't change people's statements. I said nothing about not wanting to have other adults at all. I said the cabin would not have physically fit 7 (a specific number) other adults safely. (And I did specify adults).

It would have comfortably fit 2 other average size adults. An additional 3 would have been very tight. We will have a party of 5 this fall, 4 adults + 13 y/o SAW user, and based on our experience there will not physically be room for anyone else. Adaptive strollers are often longer front to back, which takes up more of the bench room in the Skyliner.

Adults come in different sizes and widths, and adaptive strollers come in different sizes too. Again this issue isn’t related to physical capacity limits, it’s limited because Disney says it’s limited whereas a similarly situations sized family without a red tag isn’t limited.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

You make a lot of statements like “wheelchairs are used for many things not related to mobility” but what fraction of people use wheelchairs without having a mobility issue? 5%? 10%? Would you suggest that Disney interrogate every SAW and wheelchair user to determine the exact nature of their needs in order to see whether they would qualify for a 10 person or a 6 person ride? I’m sure that would go over REALLY well.

It’s better for Disney to have - and use - one consistent policy that covers the vast majority of guests rather than worrying about fringe cases.

I’m still trying to figure out your angle here as you seem to have an axe to grind but with nothing from the Disney side to actually back it up. After your bus incident did you then have a run in on the skyliner? Of all of the places where someone might push, this seems like a really silly one to choose.

I would suggest Disney to make the distinction between manually powered mobility devices and electrically powered mobility devices.

My angle is for Disney to adhere to the ADA law. The bus incident has nothing to do with this incident.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

A wheelchair is an “mobility device” thus by definition it is used for mobility. While some users may not need one full time and it may have other uses, it is primarily considered to be assisting or providing the user with a mobility need. Evacuation standards, and thus occupancy limits driven by said standards, absolutely are based on that assumption.

Again, though, it goes back to whether the actual rule on WDW Skyliner is 6+open stroller. I still believe that is the rule which may not be consistently enforced.

Disney allows two folded wheelchairs onto one skyliner, which means two people with a disability that requires a wheelchair can be on the same cabin if they are folded up.

It is not consistently enforced. You can have up to ten people and an open stroller. Obviously, if it’s 9 large adults and an open stroller then everyone might not fit but if it’s an open stroller and kids and a few adults then they would fit in most cases.