"Skyliner Effect" on Riviera Resort Dues

[mamaofsix]

Perhaps someone can explain this to me. I keep hearing people (ie: Pete on the latest DVC dues episode) talk about how much Riviera dues could skyrocket in the future because it's "unique" in that "it's the only DVC resort connected to specific transportation."

I don't understand - GF, Poly and Contemporary all have a resort monorail and have for decades. Many resorts have boat transportation, etc. Why is Riviera considered "unique" with it's transportation connection - and why would it's dues be so much more than a resort that, say, had a monorail?

 

[Sandisw]

I think the point is that in cases where you have the monorail, you have both DVC and WDW hotels that share the cost of those transportation options. The RIV is a DVC only resort so the cost of that station will be passed on only to DVC owners via dues.

I believe I read when it first opened that RIV shares a larger portion of the cost than the other resorts that use the line. So, in essence, compared to those other DVC resorts, and what transportation options they have, the potential for larger increases is not there.

RIV is new and they are probably still trying to determine a pretty accurate cost of running it and maintaining it. Thus, RIV owners may not see a good estimate for a few more years. But, it was predicted that RIV owners would see a major increase in dues for 2022 due to the increased assessment and that did not happen because more units have been declared and/or sold.

 

[Brian Noble]

I keep hearing people (ie: Pete on the latest DVC dues episode) talk about how much Riviera dues could skyrocket in the future because it's "unique" in that "it's the only DVC resort connected to specific transportation."

This sounds like uninformed speculation to me.

 

[tjkraz]

Riviera's transportation budget has steadily gone down, so I'm not really sure where that reasoning comes from.

2020: 1.1359
2021: 1.0513
2022: 0.9691

Skyliner was new when Riviera debuted. When you open a new hotel, you have some idea of what it will cost to properly staff housekeeping, front desk, lifeguards, etc. But with Skyliner, I'm sure there was a lot more guesswork involved. Perhaps they budgeted for higher staffing (training), breakdowns and other contingencies at the start.

It will level off and start to rise eventually. But I'm not sure why the cost would spike unexpectedly. For 2022, Riviera transportation is just a little more expensive than BRV, CCV and SSR, and cheaper than OKW.

 

[nightwing12]

as fuel costs increase the skyliner will likely end up being cheaper and cheaper. All the other resorts with boats and buses aren't going to get any cheaper unless they switch to alternative forms of fuel. Also the cost of the skyliner is not the burden of just riviera, there are plenty of other resorts with stations as well and I would assume they also share the cost.

 

[Philsfan77]

Riviera's transportation budget has steadily gone down, so I'm not really sure where that reasoning comes from.

2020: 1.1359
2021: 1.0513
2022: 0.9691

Skyliner was new when Riviera debuted. When you open a new hotel, you have some idea of what it will cost to properly staff housekeeping, front desk, lifeguards, etc. But with Skyliner, I'm sure there was a lot more guesswork involved. Perhaps they budgeted for higher staffing (training), breakdowns and other contingencies at the start.

It will level off and start to rise eventually. But I'm not sure why the cost would spike unexpectedly. For 2022, Riviera transportation is just a little more expensive than BRV, CCV and SSR, and cheaper than OKW.

I will be honest...I don't know how the exact breakdown works as the number you provided is based on the rate per vacation point. How I am taking that is that, more points were declared into the system (sold) so it brings down that number as it relates to the actual transportation budget.

However, just in terms of the true transportation budget for Riviera it increased by 10.7% from $3.2 million to $3.55 million (again this could be tied to the increase of points declared/sold). The other thing Pete could be looking at, is the overall cost and where it is already at in comparison to similarly sized DVC resorts:

Beach Club is the most comparable in size and their projected transportation budget for next year is only $1,000,000. BLT is bigger than Riviera (Riviera overall will be sized between BLT and BCV), and their projected transportation budget for 2022 is $1.98 million. Poly is also in Riviera ballpark and their projection for next year is $2.825.

Also by comparison BCV saw their transportation budget from 2021 to this years projection decrease by $25,000 or 2.5%. BLT saw their transportation budget from 2021 to this years projection decrease by $360,000 (was $2.34 for 2021 and projected for $1.98 for 2022) or 15.5% decrease. Polynesia saw their transportation budget from 2021 to this years projection increase by $170,000 or 6.56%.

What does any of this mean? I really don't know right now. We probably won't really know anything until the resort is fully declared, but transportation costs for that resort are already on the high side compared to similarly sized resorts.

 

[tjkraz]

I will be honest...I don't know how the exact breakdown works as the number you provided is based on the rate per vacation point. How I am taking that is that, more points were declared into the system (sold) so it brings down that number as it relates to the actual transportation budget.

No, that is not correct. Disney must pay its portion on non-declared points. You may see the total annual budget allocated to DVC rise, but on a per-point basis, it should not fluctuate as a direct result of points being added to the condo association.

Imagine a resort's transportation budget is $5 million. There are 10 million total points in the development. If the resort is 50% declared, the budget would state that DVC is paying $2.5 million (half of the total budget) and $.50 per point (5 million declared points / $2.5 million in transportation costs for the condo association.)

The next year it rises to 75% declared on the same 5 mil budget. The total transportation cost for the condo rises to $3.75 million. But that's now spread over 7.5 million points for a per-point cost of $.50.

Generally speaking, dues should not rise or fall on a per-point basis as more points are declared. The share paid by the condo association rises, but it's spread over more points (owners.)

 

[Philsfan77]

No, that is not correct. Disney must pay its portion on non-declared points. You may see the total annual budget allocated to DVC rise, but on a per-point basis, it should not fluctuate as a direct result of points being added to the condo association.

Imagine a resort's transportation budget is $5 million. There are 10 million total points in the development. If the resort is 50% declared, the budget would state that DVC is paying $2.5 million (half of the total budget) and $.50 per point (5 million declared points / $2.5 million in transportation costs for the condo association.)

The next year it rises to 75% declared on the same 5 mil budget. The total transportation cost for the condo rises to $3.75 million. But that's now spread over 7.5 million points for a per-point cost of $.50.

Generally speaking, dues should not rise or fall on a per-point basis as more points are declared. The share paid by the condo association rises, but it's spread over more points (owners.)

So basically as a per point basis at it relates to the overall budget, transportation costs became a smaller amount of the overall budget (the numbers you're showing going down)...but the budgeted costs overall increased as they relate to transportation increase by 10.7%. None of that portion is really tied to points declared/undeclared? Trying to learn something knew about all of this.

 

[tjkraz]

Beach Club is the most comparable in size and their projected transportation budget for next year is only $1,000,000. BLT is bigger than Riviera (Riviera overall will be sized between BLT and BCV), and their projected transportation budget for 2022 is $1.98 million. Poly is also in Riviera ballpark and their projection for next year is $2.825.

Also by comparison BCV saw their transportation budget from 2021 to this years projection decrease by $25,000 or 2.5%. BLT saw their transportation budget from 2021 to this years projection decrease by $360,000 (was $2.34 for 2021 and projected for $1.98 for 2022) or 15.5% decrease. Polynesia saw their transportation budget from 2021 to this years projection increase by $170,000 or 6.56%.

What does any of this mean? I really don't know right now. We probably won't really know anything until the resort is fully declared, but transportation costs for that resort are already on the high side compared to similarly sized resorts.

As for all of this, the answer is "it's complicated."

First, consider the differences in transportation provided at each resort. Beach Club has buses to only 3 destinations (MK, AK and Disney Springs) along with the infrequent Friendship boats which are shared between BC, YC, BW, Dolphin and Swan. Beach Club's transportation is bound to be much cheaper than resorts like OKW and SSR which run dedicated buses to all 4 theme parks plus Disney Springs.

Then consider how the dollars are shared between hotel rooms and villas. Disney's Yacht & Beach Club Resorts + Villas has about 1500 rooms total, of which only 20% are the Beach Club Villas. So whatever the combined transportation budget is for that entire complex, BCV is only paying about 20%

Across the water, Disney's BoardWalk Inn and Villas probably receives almost identical transportation services. However the BW only has 900 rooms, of which 60% are the DVC villas. So DVC would be charged about 60% of the total transportation costs for the Inn and Villas combined.

Same is true at the MK area resorts where the monorail stations are staffed similarly, but the number of rooms serviced at each resort--and the portion of the bill paid by DVC owners--varies.

SSR and OKW are also very similar, both being fully declared and providing bus transportation to all destinations. SSR's budget for 2022 is slightly higher at $12.4 million vs $9.2 million. That higher amount can be attributed to more frequent buses during peak times plus the dedicated buses for the Treehouse Villa area. But OKW's per-point rate is much higher because it has half as many points as SSR: 7 million vs 14 million.

 

[tjkraz]

So basically as a per point basis at it relates to the overall budget, transportation costs became a smaller amount of the overall budget (the numbers you're showing going down)...but the budgeted costs overall increased as they relate to transportation increase by 10.7%. None of that portion is really tied to points declared/undeclared? Trying to learn something knew about all of this.

What I'm saying is that the Annual Budget Cost Components listed on the dues statement represent DVC's portion only. The $3.55 million in transportation costs budgeted for 2022 is not the full cost of operating Riviera's transportation. Disney is paying some additional amount, based upon points that have not yet been added to the condo association.

As more condo units are declared, the association will be made responsible for more of the resort's overall transportation cost. But the number of points over which that is spread will also increase, leaving the per-point obligation relatively unchanged.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I recall a similar type of speculation with BLT when it first opened as the first DVC on a monorail. The cost of monorail operations was expensive and the transportation dues there would be much more than other locations but it hasn't been.

Now if the speculation ranged towards "if Disney can develop a plausible justification for allocating more transportation costs to DVC and away from them and other cash resorts will they"? I think we all know where that would go. However they are supposed to be able to justify and defend the decision and DVC has some protection from that and also Disney's continued to desire to sell more DVC. If you really start increasing the dues disproportionally it won't make that goal easier.

 

[kanerf]

I would also like to see the Skyliner expand beyond where it is now. I think it could go to Disney Springs and Animal Kingdom.

 

[scoobdoo]

I would also like to see the Skyliner expand beyond where it is now. I think it could go to Disney Springs and Animal Kingdom.

I would love so much to go direct from RIV to Springs

 

[Lorana]

I recall a similar type of speculation with BLT when it first opened as the first DVC on a monorail. The cost of monorail operations was expensive and the transportation dues there would be much more than other locations but it hasn't been.

Now if the speculation ranged towards "if Disney can develop a plausible justification for allocating more transportation costs to DVC and away from them and other cash resorts will they"? I think we all know where that would go. However they are supposed to be able to justify and defend the decision and DVC has some protection from that and also Disney's continued to desire to sell more DVC. If you really start increasing the dues disproportionally it won't make that goal easier.

I’m not sure how we would ever know if they did it small increments over time. It’s not like we get to see overall operating budgets across the system and the DVC portion of it in order to know (or am I missing something)?

 

[nightwing12]

I would love so much to go direct from RIV to Springs

I think that would be great as well, but then they would have to start charging for parking at disney springs

 

[sethschroeder]

I think that would be great as well, but then they would have to start charging for parking at disney springs

Why?

Skyliner to CBR/Riviera would be no different than busses that go to BWV or BLT from Disney Springs. Its not going to spike people going there to then get to the parks.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Why?

Skyliner to CBR/Riviera would be no different than busses that go to BWV or BLT from Disney Springs. Its not going to spike people going there to then get to the parks.

I had given this some thought before, and I agree that there already exists a workaround to park for free at DS, then take a bus to a resort, then Skyliner, Monorail or hoof it the rest of the way to the parks. It's laborious,. but doable. Though I haven't bothered to research it any further, are there busses running to DS from resorts at or around park closing time? Do the busses TO DS stop earlier than busses FROM DS? If, for example, the busses to DS stop at say 9:00, then you'd be stranded at whatever resort you had bussed in to. I know there are plenty of DS locations open as late or later than the parks, but when do the busses headed there stop?

I could see people skipping out on the $30 parking fee with greater frequency if the Skyliner continued directly to DS, as it would be running until after park closing no matter what.

 

[scoobdoo]

I would rather DIS support its flagship DVC property and build out its fledging transit system than care about a tiny minority who might try to game the parking system.

 

[sethschroeder]

I had given this some thought before, and I agree that there already exists a workaround to park for free at DS, then take a bus to a resort, then Skyliner, Monorail or hoof it the rest of the way to the parks. It's laborious,. but doable. Though I haven't bothered to research it any further, are there busses running to DS from resorts at or around park closing time? Do the busses TO DS stop earlier than busses FROM DS? If, for example, the busses to DS stop at say 9:00, then you'd be stranded at whatever resort you had bussed in to. I know there are plenty of DS locations open as late or later than the parks, but when do the busses headed there stop?

I could see people skipping out on the $30 parking fee with greater frequency if the Skyliner continued directly to DS, as it would be running until after park closing no matter what.

Except there is no difference you can already do it.

Taking the Skyliner to CBR, then taking another skyliner to HS or Epcot is going to take just as long or longer than taking a bus to BWV and walk/boat to Epcot or HS.

So nothing would change at DS. I could see them drop parking fees at Typhoon though since I could see the Skyliner stopping there as well (although the fix there could be the Skyliner doesn't unload from DS to Typhoon but unloads from CBR to Typhoon).

 

[DonMacGregor]

Except there is no difference you can already do it.

Taking the Skyliner to CBR, then taking another skyliner to HS or Epcot is going to take just as long or longer than taking a bus to BWV and walk/boat to Epcot or HS.

So nothing would change at DS. I could see them drop parking fees at Typhoon though since I could see the Skyliner stopping there as well (although the fix there could be the Skyliner doesn't unload from DS to Typhoon but unloads from CBR to Typhoon).

If they were going to extend the Skyliner to DS, the shortest and most direct route would be straight over Typhoon Lagoon, with no station, from the green space next to the Cirque tent to an expanded station at CBR. That would also allow the construction of a walkway from OKW too and finally give that resort another transpo option.

I think you are giving the timeliness and frequency of DW busses far too much credit, and the opportunity to utilize a single mode of transportation, with a single transfer far too little.

Waiting for a bus to arrive, to then take you to BWV, then walking to HS versus getting on the continuously cycling Skyliner and making a single transfer at CBR, to be taken directly to both theme parks? In Central Florida weather? No difference?