Size of ECV now being enforced

[cranbiz]

OK, This is the announcement as written in the bus drivers daily sheet. It turned out I was really close to word for word from memory. (that's a total surprise, I'm at the point that I can hide my own easter eggs )

" Effective Sat. , March 27, a wheelchair/ECV measurement box will be tested at Disney's Port Orleans (Riverside South) and Disney's Pop Century resorts for apporximately 2 weeks. At those two resorts, guests using wheelchairs and ECV's will need to verify that their wheelchair/ECV is contained within the marked area (footprint is 30" by 48")

If the wheelchair/ECV fits within the measurement box, please load the guest(s) as documented in the Bus Transportation Operations Operating Guide and allow up to five additional guests to board with the guest with disabilities. Direct any additional guests in the party to load in the standard queue.

If the wheelchair/ECV does NOT fit within the measurement box, explain to the guest that the wheelchair/ECV won't be allowed on the bus and a Bus Guest Service Manager will be contacted to provide assistance. Then, contact the Operations Center using your radio to request a GSM response to the location."

It's my belief that those guests will be offered either special transportation or the possibility to "borrow" a proper sized wheelchair/ECV but I don't have anything other than rumors from other drivers on the assistance that the GSM will provide.

I also believe that this will be expanded to all resorts after the test period

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

OK, This is the announcement as written in the bus drivers daily sheet. It turned out I was really close to word for word from memory. (that's a total surprise, I'm at the point that I can hide my own easter eggs )

Comes in handy when creating your own magic though!

" Effective Sat. , March 27, a wheelchair/ECV measurement box will be tested at Disney's Port Orleans (Riverside South) and Disney's Pop Century resorts for apporximately 2 weeks. At those two resorts, guests using wheelchairs and ECV's will need to verify that their wheelchair/ECV is contained within the marked area (footprint is 30" by 48")

If the wheelchair/ECV fits within the measurement box, please load the guest(s) as documented in the Bus Transportation Operations Operating Guide and allow up to five additional guests to board with the guest with disabilities. Direct any additional guests in the party to load in the standard queue.

If the wheelchair/ECV does NOT fit within the measurement box, explain to the guest that the wheelchair/ECV won't be allowed on the bus and a Bus Guest Service Manager will be contacted to provide assistance. Then, contact the Operations Center using your radio to request a GSM response to the location."

It's my belief that those guests will be offered either special transportation or the possibility to "borrow" a proper sized wheelchair/ECV but I don't have anything other than rumors from other drivers on the assistance that the GSM will provide.

I also believe that this will be expanded to all resorts after the test period

I think the biggest thing is the fact that it is taken into account at GSM somehow will take care of it. Might not fit everybodies needs that run into the size thing, but I seriously doubt Disney could find an option that will work for everybody, always. They are finally implementing the rules, good for them! Looking for solutions for those that do not fit the rules; another kudos.

Hopefully it wont end with the test. They need to put it into practice at all of the resorts, parks and DTD and make it permanent. Rather yesterday than tomorrow. For all of us involved, guests -rolling and walking- and busdrivers alike.

 

[lovetoscrap]

(that's a total surprise, I'm at the point that I can hide my own easter eggs )

Funniest thing I have heard in a while!!

I really wish that Disney would put a sign at the bus loading areas explaining the number of people allowed rule. Maybe in that box they can also print "WC and up to 5 guests may enter here." Something short and sweet. Because you know that most of the Disney guests do no prior research, don't ask questions and truly may not know that they can't bring their entire group of 45 on with them. And for the ones that know and don't care it gives the bus driver something to point to and say "It tells you at each loading area that only 5 additional people can enter ". That way the bus driver isn't subjected to the complaints and arguments from those that want to get away with it with nothing but his word to back it up. Much harder to argue when it is printed right there. Or even a small sign on the window of the rear entrance (there isn't one there already is there??)

I know the only way that I know that rule is because I have read it here.

 

[cranbiz]

Funniest thing I have heard in a while!!

I really wish that Disney would put a sign at the bus loading areas explaining the number of people allowed rule. Maybe in that box they can also print "WC and up to 5 guests may enter here." Something short and sweet. Because you know that most of the Disney guests do no prior research, don't ask questions and truly may not know that they can't bring their entire group of 45 on with them. And for the ones that know and don't care it gives the bus driver something to point to and say "It tells you at each loading area that only 5 additional people can enter ". That way the bus driver isn't subjected to the complaints and arguments from those that want to get away with it with nothing but his word to back it up. Much harder to argue when it is printed right there. Or even a small sign on the window of the rear entrance (there isn't one there already is there??)

I know the only way that I know that rule is because I have read it here.

We have the signs on the bus for guests to fold their strollers, signs that able bodied guests should surrender the folding seats to guests with wheelchairs, signs not to enter through the back doors and signs the suggest transferring from your ECV to a seat, but still have guests argue and fuss. I guess that a sign for the number of guests will get the same amount of attention.

That being said, the resorts in the test have an A Frame sign stating the new rules. I'll see if the sign gets read this weekend. (I did not have any disabled guests last weekend at those resorts)

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks cranbiz.
You did a good job of remembering what was in the memo (hope you find all your Easter eggs though!)

I got a PM on April 4, 2010 from a poster, indicating that the DREAM scooter will fit into the box as long as the wheel is turned and that they can be loaded onto the buses. I do not have anything official about this, just the message I received. (The DREAM scooter is a very large, motorcycle style of ECV).

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE BUS LIFT IS RATED FOR 600 POUNDS according to what cranbiz posted before. So if the weight of the ECV plus the rider is more than 600 pounds, it is not safe to ride up or down on the buses with lifts.
This applies to any ECV, since the weight of an ECV or power wheelchair can be as much as 300 pounds without a rider. If the rider and any other items being carried on the ECV weighs more than 300 pounds, the weight will be exceeded.

THE RAMPS ARE RATED FOR 800 POUNDS, so if the weight of the ECV plus the rider exceeds that, that is too much weight for the ramps.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Despite many people posting that they have seen 'huge' parties boarding with ECV or wheelchair users, I don't think that is the norm.

Yes, but I'm sure some people would post that they'd seen a family of 20 aliens boarding the bus, if it would help them make their argument .

I do know that most of the regular posters here have only a few people board with them most of the time (the most we have had was 5 - but that was when my 80+ yr old mom and 80+ yr old MIL were with us). And, I know that my family and many other posters have had other guests try to attach themselves to a wheelchair/ECV party.

Yup, I'm normally only with one other person, at most 2, so our party is nice and small.

On another note, I have never had extra people try to join us... but we had the opposite happen. We were at Pop (sept 2008) a party of 7 total, but we never all went on the bus at the same time.. usually 5, one time 6. But 3 of us were in need of the wc lift/ramp. I was with my friend and her family (she was in an ECV due to a bad back, and me for bad feet) waiting behind a manual chair. We let the manual chair go and waited for the next bus so we could ride together. While we were waiting, my Mother joined us.. she has her own electric WC. So we knew our party would still have to split. A bus pulled up followed immediately by another... so I got on with my friend and her family and thought my Mother would be soon behind us. The second bus pulled up side-by-side of the other and only loaded walking riders. Meanwhile ours was loading.. and yet another bus pulls up. So again we thought ok she will be right behind us. NO they only let on walkers... by this time there was also a line in WC loading and only 2 (my friend and myself) were allowed on for 3 buses! I don't know how much longer a wait she had but I was pretty frustrated at this point. She had a much longer wait than most of the people in line, and I felt bad for leaving her there alone. This happened also when leaving parks, but that was understandable... this was on the way to a park and not even early!

Unfortunately this does sometimes happen. It often occurs when there are already people in wheelchairs on the bus. Most of the buses can only carry 2 wheelchairs / ECVs (there are some new ones that can take 3) at a time, so if those spaces are filled, there's no way to get any more on. Also, a number of buses (especially the older lift-equipped ones) at any one time will have problems with their lift / ramp / tie-downs, meaning that they can't take any wheelchair users at all. Once or twice I've had a driver not see me until it was too late to load me, but that's a fairly rare thing.

Last time we were there, my wife told off some people who tried to board with us (it was just the 2 of us there)... They had to go get in line.

Well done her! Nobody messes with the Doom Buggy!

I am also working on a stroller attachment for the chair where I can push a stroller from my powerchair... but a child should NEVER be carried on an ECV, since it is too easy for a child to hit the controls.

I'm not sure if you'd be allowed to use this in the parks. I'm pretty sure they have rules against anything being pushed or towed by a wheelchair, but I may have misremembered. The only reason it stuck in my head, is because I was thinking of doing a similar thing when I have kids.

Thank you all, while I did not expect a lot of negativity out of this, the support for all of you in this is great. I hope that this change makes your days at WDW easier.

I think you will get a loud and resounding cheer from most of us disabled Disney nuts, when they find out about this .

Slightly random question, but what is the official policy on children in medically-necessitated strollers (the ones that don't look 'wheelchair-ish')? I know that the GAC doesn't apply on buses, so is there any way to let the driver know that the stroller is acting as a wheelchair? The reason I ask is that I met a family on the bus last trip, who had a little boy with CP. He was one of twins, so they had to use a double stroller, but he needed lots of supports and straps to keep him safe and comfortable. The driver we had was very helpful once he found out it was medical, but they said that they'd not been so fortunate with all their drivers.

I would hope that enforcement includes banning gas-powered "home-made mobility scooters", too. Twice in the course of my last visit I saw people in the parks on actual mopeds that had been fitted with -- wait for it -- bicycle training wheels!

A moped will do 30 mph and has NO business being ridden inside a theme park. Not only are they too fast, but the exhaust pipe gets hot; a real burn hazard potential in a crowd.

 

[syko]

I push a stroller from my wheelchair, no one has ever said I can't at WDW or DL.
Officaly they do say no, but if i'm in the parks on my own what can they do, let me have a VIP guide for the day for free?

 

[Cheshire Figment]

You cannot tow anything for safety reasons --- you cannot see what you are towing.
Here is the official list of restricted items:

Q. Are there any personal items I should not bring with me into the Theme Parks?

A. Items that you may not bring into the Theme Parks include, but are not limited to:

Items with wheels, such as wagons, skateboards, scooters, inline skates, shoes with built-in wheels, two-wheeled or three-wheeled conveyances, strollers larger than 36" x 52", suitcases, coolers, or backpacks with or without wheels larger than 24" long x 15" wide x 18" high (coolers required for medication may be stored in a locker or at Guest Relations), and any trailer-like object that is pushed or towed by an ECV wheelchair or stroller
Alcoholic beverages
Weapons of any kind
Folding chairs
Glass containers (excluding baby food jars and perfume bottles)
Pets (unless they are service animals)
In Disney's Animal Kingdom® Theme Park (for the safety of the wildlife), balloons, straws and drink lids are not permitted.

Note: Guests are not permitted to pull items behind them. Any item that requires a Guest to pull it behind them, including a stroller, is not permitted into the Park.

(Bolding added by me)

taken from http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/wdw/common/helpFAQ?id=HelpFAQThemeParkPage

 

[KPeveler]

I am going to need to handle my children in my wheelchair in everyday life, so I am already looking into safe options for that. A sling will be easy for infants, but I am more concerned about toddlers. I know someone who created an attachment for their chair (literally clamped to the frame) that their toddler straps into (like those things you put on your backs for the kids).

I have seen strollers actually made to attach to the front of the wheelchair, which I will definitely use when needed. Somehow I doubt disney will not allow me to use a wheelchair attachment. (the one I saw looks like a jogging stroller with just one wheel) I will, however, have to detach it for the buses (it would make me too long).

I would NEVER keep my child in these on the buses, though... just not safe for a child to be in a stroller on a bus.

I would not, however, use a bungee cord or something to attach the stroller to me! (though now I have an image of a kid in a stroller going 6 mph behind my wheelchair)

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

I agree! I hope they start enforcing more rules. We just saw "Grandma" letting her young grandson "drive" her ECV while sitting on her lap. Jr drove it right into a crowd of people and knocked a young child into a flower bed. Instead of apologizing or even checking to see if the child was ok, the group left with Jr still sitting on Grandma's lap.

I remember a time not so long ago, when a CM saw more than one rider on a ECV they would approach and ask them to get off. If they refused managerment /security would be called. There really is no reason WDW can't enforce this. The policy is clearly there for safety.

I have always enforced that rule and most CMs I know do. When we see it. We will always tell them that they can have their ECV confiscated if they let someboyd how is under age ride on it or drive it.

Slightly random question, but what is the official policy on children in medically-necessitated strollers (the ones that don't look 'wheelchair-ish')? I know that the GAC doesn't apply on buses, so is there any way to let the driver know that the stroller is acting as a wheelchair? The reason I ask is that I met a family on the bus last trip, who had a little boy with CP. He was one of twins, so they had to use a double stroller, but he needed lots of supports and straps to keep him safe and comfortable. The driver we had was very helpful once he found out it was medical, but they said that they'd not been so fortunate with all their drivers.

A lot of it will depend on the stroller itself. It is my understanding that most are not rated for travel. That means that the tie downs can damage the stroller or the stroller could collapse in the event of an accident causing injury to the child. You need to know about your specific stroller. If it is a regular stroller with extra straps, I can pretty much gaurantee it is not rated for travel and puts the child at a significant risk.

 

[livndisney]

I have always enforced that rule and most CMs I know do. When we see it. We will always tell them that they can have their ECV confiscated if they let someboyd how is under age ride on it or drive it.

While I am glad you enforce the rule, sadly many I have seen don't. Simple example-right after the accident we walked into World showcase right behind a double rider. They passed two CM's(not involved with guests) that looked right at the double rider and said nothing to them. One was a manager/supervisor. Right before the accident the Grandma rode up the path to the butterfly house passing two CM's that said nothing to them.

 

[KPeveler]

about the Dream scooter -

If I were needing to rent a scooter, I would not count on being able to get a dream scooter on the buses - Yes, they do fit on the lifts with the front wheel turned, but they also need to fit into the spots on the bus easily, which is difficult to do when you have to turn the wheel to fit...

 

[dclfun]

about the Dream scooter -

If I were needing to rent a scooter, I would not count on being able to get a dream scooter on the buses - Yes, they do fit on the lifts with the front wheel turned, but they also need to fit into the spots on the bus easily, which is difficult to do when you have to turn the wheel to fit...

I think the reason for the measurements is that the ECV/ mobility device should fit into the box WITHOUT having to turn the wheels. I personally don't want to be smashed by someone driving a behemoth onto the bus behind me or taking the space that I need for my service dog due to the size of their ECV. Sounds like the people who insist that their child is tall enough to ride attractions with height restrictions IF they have tissue stuffed in their shoes or a hat on their head, or are standing on their toes, etc. People ALWAYS find ways to skirt the intended rule because, as I always say, we live in an entitlement society where people feel they deserve to have what they want. It's truly not safe to board a lift with the wheels turned to the side or to try and maneuver inside a bus if you can't put the wheels straight to drive forward. There are so many choices out there for rentals- why does someone have to drive the Dream Scooter or other oversized types? I also hope guests are NOT offered private van transportation. That opens up a whole new type of entitlement mentality- "I'll just rent a huge ECV so we can get private transportation everywhere in Disney!!".---Kathy

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Somebody earlier mentioned those bed type wheelchairs- I'm not sure how they would transport those.

I used to work at a home for people with developmental disabilities. Many of our residents had severe forms of CP, and several had joints so tight that they could not bend or sit up easily. We had two or three residents with those types of wheelchairs for that reason. We truly could not put them in a sitting position. Another resident who used one had a rare disease that over time caused her joints to stiffen to the point she could not bend them.

We had an accessible van and we used those wheelchairs in the van when we went out for community interaction. I can only assume that they were rate for travel and could safely be tied down or we wouldn't have been allowed to do it.

It's not common, but there are conditions or diseases that would prevent somebody from being able to sit.

 

[KPeveler]

I can understand if someone has a need which means they cannot use a ECV or wheelchair that fits within the parameters, but the Dream is most likely NOT a need, but a preference... There are MANY ECVs for rent that can easily handle people of size, which WILL fit in the ADA-regulated size. I understand the preference for something cooler-looking...

But it comes down to safety. The safety devices on the bus have been created for mobility devices under a certain size and weight. If they do not fit, it is not safe.

If I went onto a bus and found that both wheelchairs spots were taken by one ECV that did not fit the ADA regulations (and did not appear to be a custom model anything), I would have a fit! Disney management would be hearing from me!

I understand wanting something cool looking (I am already trying to fix up my new wheelchair and I do not even have it yet), and that comfort is important... but so is safety. And disney is not going to allow preference to overrule safety.

 

[ShhhQ]

Originally Posted by ShhhQ
On another note, I have never had extra people try to join us... but we had the opposite happen. We were at Pop (sept 2008) a party of 7 total, but we never all went on the bus at the same time.. usually 5, one time 6. But 3 of us were in need of the wc lift/ramp. I was with my friend and her family (she was in an ECV due to a bad back, and me for bad feet) waiting behind a manual chair. We let the manual chair go and waited for the next bus so we could ride together. While we were waiting, my Mother joined us.. she has her own electric WC. So we knew our party would still have to split. A bus pulled up followed immediately by another... so I got on with my friend and her family and thought my Mother would be soon behind us. The second bus pulled up side-by-side of the other and only loaded walking riders. Meanwhile ours was loading.. and yet another bus pulls up. So again we thought ok she will be right behind us. NO they only let on walkers... by this time there was also a line in WC loading and only 2 (my friend and myself) were allowed on for 3 buses! I don't know how much longer a wait she had but I was pretty frustrated at this point. She had a much longer wait than most of the people in line, and I felt bad for leaving her there alone. This happened also when leaving parks, but that was understandable... this was on the way to a park and not even early!

Unfortunately this does sometimes happen. It often occurs when there are already people in wheelchairs on the bus. Most of the buses can only carry 2 wheelchairs / ECVs (there are some new ones that can take 3) at a time, so if those spaces are filled, there's no way to get any more on. Also, a number of buses (especially the older lift-equipped ones) at any one time will have problems with their lift / ramp / tie-downs, meaning that they can't take any wheelchair users at all. Once or twice I've had a driver not see me until it was too late to load me, but that's a fairly rare thing.

The problem was, these were fresh buses with no one already on them... going from POP to MK at around 10-10:30am... quite sometime after the park was open, and it was the same day rides like Space Mountain were practically walk ons. But out of 3 buses that arrived within minutes of each other, only the first one loaded ECVs/WCs thus leaving the people waiting in the WC line waiting even longer! I would have understood it if it had been a bus with people already on it... but these were fresh buses.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

The problem was, these were fresh buses with no one already on them... going from POP to MK at around 10-10:30am... quite sometime after the park was open, and it was the same day rides like Space Mountain were practically walk ons. But out of 3 buses that arrived within minutes of each other, only the first one loaded ECVs/WCs thus leaving the people waiting in the WC line waiting even longer! I would have understood it if it had been a bus with people already on it... but these were fresh buses.

Hmmm, now that doesn't sound great . Sometimes it happens that the driver doesn't see the wheelchair users, or doesn't realise they want their bus, but the layout of the POP bus stops makes that unlikely. The only 2 options I can think of are that a) the lift / ramp was broken, or b) the driver just didn't want to go to the effort of loading you guys on . Hopefully, it was the first one. I normally roll up to the front of the bus if the driver doesn't come straight back, so I can find out what's going on; if the lift is broken, they can tell you and radio for another bus. I think that the buses with malfunctioning lifts tend to have the wheelchair symbol removed from the back door, until it's fixed, but they may sometimes forget.

 

[dclfun]

If the two new buses were pulling up alongside the one that was loading the ECV's then they weren't able to lower their ramps. A bus needs to be pulled up safely in the loading zone and could not do so until the other bus pulled away. It sounds like they were trying to clear out all the guests waiting/standing. If there had been no other guests then the bus should have waited to pull in and load the ECV's right away. Usually when there is a huge crowd and a w/c guest or ECV guest is unable to board the driver will radio in for another bus to come immediately.---Kathy

 

[SueM in MN]

This is some added clarification and links to information about size of wheelchairs/ECVs.

This is a link to the current Transportation Guidelines for people with disabilities
In italics, this is the citation information and a quote with the definition of "common wheelchair" in the document:

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 1]
[Revised as of October 1, 2007]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR37]
[Page 412-501]
*
*********************** TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
*
********* Subtitle A--Office of the Secretary of Transportation
*
PART 37_TRANSPORTATION SERVICES FOR INDIVIDUALS WITH DISABILITIES (ADA)
Sec.* 37.3* Definitions................
Wheelchair means a mobility aid belonging to any class of three or four-wheeled devices, usable indoors, designed for and used by individuals with mobility impairments,whether operated manually or powered. A ``common wheelchair'' is such a device which does not exceed 30 inches in width and 48 inches in length measured two inches above the 
ground, and does not weigh more than 600 pounds when occupied.
[56 FR 45621, Sept. 6, 1991, as amended at 58 FR 63101, Nov. 30, 1993; 
61 FR 25415, May 21, 1996; 63 FR 51690, Sept. 28, 1998]

Part 38, Accessibility Specifications for Accessible Transportation Vehicles lists the different sizes and spaces required in the vehicles. It does not list the "common wheelchair" size, but does refer back to the definitions in 37.3

The ADA Accessibility Guidelines for Transportation Vehicles uses the same "common wheelchair" definition.

The original ADA guidelines for the definition of common wheelchair did not consider/mention devices that can be made shorter by turning a wheel, so the definition could be interpreted to mean that as long as the device fits into a space no larger than 30 wide by 48 inches, it meets the definition.

There is a draft guideline, not in effect yet, which does not include a measurement for the common wheelchair definition.

Doing an internet search, I was able to find some bariatric (high weight capacity) ECVs that were shorter than the Dream Scooter, but also found a number that were longer and would not be able to be made shorter to fit into the 'measurement box.' I did not do a search of the WDW area rental places to see whether any companies rented any that were longer than would fit in the box.

 

[KPeveler]

Honestly it looks like the place where the Dream scooter has trouble meeting the guidelines is "less than 2 inches above the ground." It looks higher than that, which makes it a tip hazard for the buses... The weight is just too high on it.