Sickened at hospital charges

[minnie56]

I'm from the UK and my only experience of the US medical system was in 2001 when we were at Disney when DH had a bladder problem over a couple of days which ended in a complete blockage where all he was passing was blood (sorry if TMI). We took a taxi to the ER and I managed to get him to the front desk and all the lady was interested in was 'how was I going to pay' At that point my brain was so frazzled I couldn't think except to say that we had travel insurance. She kept asking how we were going to pay - at this point I had to take DH to some seats as he just about collapsed - I remembered I had a credit card which I gave to her and she spent ages filling in forms whilst DH writhed in agony.

The upshot was that we spend a morning in the ER - a doctor came in a couple of times to take samples and said he had an infection - sent him out with antibiotics although there was still a complete blockage and he was in agony. This eventually resolved later that evening (the pressure eventually became too much).

On returning home and having further investigation he was firstly told he had bladder cancer!! Then that he had a very rare condition called amyloidosis which can be life threatening but not so serious if confined to the bladder. The service we received in the UK which is free at the point of service was fantastic in his case. Although we had private insurance we were told that this would not be helpful in this circumstance and we couldn't fault the doctors or system (even to the point of free hotel accommodation in London which was the only place the tests could be carried out) However the service in the case of my elderly father was appalling - he was basically neglected to death for 5 weeks in hospital where they completely failed (in 5 weeks!!!) to diagnose that he had bowel cancer.

We still had demands from the hospital when we got home even though the insurance company had paid what was required. I can't remember exactly how much we were charged but it was an amazing amount for service (or in our case non service ) we received. The over riding memory from the whole situation was that the main thing they were concerned about was the money and not the obvious medical emergency that DH was suffering.

In a civilised society it should be possible to provide fair medical care whether it be paid for by the state (and indirectly by people by their taxes) or by insurance. I worry that we are being shortchanged because of the greed of insurance companies which forces the cost of care upwards

We had an incident on a Disney bus some years back...long story short, he was hospitalized for 17 hours and the bill was $17,000! He had heat prostation (sp?). We paid the bill..(that won't ever happen again mind you, for $82 a year we now have family travel and medical coverage on our homeowners Insurance ) and for about a year all these mystery Dr's came out of the woodwork claiming they too had seen my husband!! He has zero recollection of them. They hounded us by mail and by phone. In the end...our Lawyer told them under no circumstance were they getting paid as they had no proof they had attended my husband and to basically, go away. They did.

Very sleazy...

 

[Holly]

Good for you, but I'm not going around saying mine is better than yours, you opened that can of worms and as far as I'm concerned I'm still firmly convinced what I have is better for me. What I don't get is why some are trying so hard to convince me otherwise? Why on earth do those of you who live in other countries feel it's so ok to compare yourselves to us? Yay you but I don't want it, am not interested and will not co-operate. I like the way we do things here and am not into being taken by the hand by other countries.

The thing I find most interesting in the whole thing is that the sharpest minds in Europe do not become Dr's in Europe like they do here. The go out and get lots of degrees and go to work where the $ happens to be which isn't medicine it's in business. I myself have been counseling my DS12 away from being a surgeon. It was his dream for long time to follow in my Grandfathers footsteps and be an Orthopedic Surgeon. He's got the brains and the ambition but I don't see how he can pay off a quarter of a million dollars in med school bills plus forgo all the earning years he needs to spend in school if he isn't able to charge what he wants. The math simply doesn't add up, once the current Dr's age out of the system who is going to do the job? I think there will be a long term difference.

How much do Dr's in your country make a year? Whatever it is I'm sure it's not enough. I suspect the Dr's there are as disgruntled as our public education teachers are here and I think it's a bad mix. If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

When I go to Sloan Kettering and sit in that office there are people from all over the world in there with me. In my opinion there is no greater testament to US medical facilities than that, it's ok with me if it isn't free as long as it's worth it in the end.

BTW, you don't have to agree with me. I'm not looking to force American version of health-care down any other countries throat, live & let live... just don't try to tell me I've got it all wrong.

I'm an American and I'm telling you that you have it wrong.

There is no live and let live when it comes to health care- it's more like live and let die.


I'm glad that regular people from other countries come in and tell us the truth about their health care systems, because we sure don't get it from those here who want to frighten us off with scare tactics like doctor shortages and death panels.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I have been very happy with my medical care. The problem in this country that I have said countless times--our country can't manage it's military health care properly. My care improved when I was no longer a dependent and had my own health insurance.

UHC--I am guessng United Health Care for the OP??? I think that is what they had at my DH's former company. They got out of the going against doc's orders game a while a go. If a doc said a test or whatever was needed it was not disputed. The only thing that I hated about it--was limited PT/Chiropractic care. It was limited per year, not per incident so when I had my knee surgery--there were no visits left that year. We paid cash out of pocket for about a week or two of therapy and then the place I went to had an exercise plan that costs less. You could go in and do your own exercises with limited help from the PT (I.e. it would not be one one one but they would answer questions and help if you got stuck or forgot something or whatever) at a much reduced rate. I was also able to pay the medicare rate for my out of pocket therapy as there would be no insurance to file since it wouldn't be paid anyway. The reason they charge more for insurance is that it gets negotiated down to that medicare rate or very close. So if the medicare rate was $90--they'd post $125 to insurance...b/c insurance will almost always pay less. IF they posted $90, no insurance company would pay that and they may lose out. Very sad!

Our insurance now has no referrals. I enjoy that! I know what I need for most of my ailments. So having to go to the primary doc for a referral is a waist of money. I.e. I get PT for lower back issues and neck issues if I have a flair up that I cannot get managed. I have had these issues for more than a decade. I don't need a doctor to tell me to go to PT. I know that is what I need. It is ridiculous.

As far as other countries--while it is all great for you guys, implementing the same system her nationwide will not be that easy. Much bigger population. As stated in my opening--the have problems with handling the military. As a whole, their health care is okay, but the way it is operated and the fact that even for wounded vets, they rely on donors to build centers to rehabilitate them. That is very sad. The tax dollars don't even cover it and without it, those vets would not be rehabilitated. Also--there are members of the military who do end up going bankrupt due to medical costs--I know one individual that did when his wife had and subsequently died of breast cancer. Not sure if it was due to her lack of income--or a direct result of the medical care since he was military and spouses are covered when retirement occurs--but he still had to declare bankruptcy. That won't magically go away just b/c health care is free.

I am surprised it hasn't come up and those from other countries, please chime in--but another "problem" with the US is the R&D for new procedures, protocols and medicine. They recoup the cost from the US b/c they can and of course medicine is cheaper over seas. But I wonder--what is the medical research and development like in other countries? Who pays for it--and are there countries with free health care that are on the cutting of medical technology?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Family physicians in Canada make an average of $202000 a year, as of 2006.

My 14yo daughter wants to be a doctor, not for the money (although it does sound like a lot!), but because she wants to help people and she loves science. Her favorite book when she was four was "The Canadian Medical Association of Children's Symptoms". When she was eight she was lucky enough to enroll in a dissection course and I still remember her excitedly showing me how amazingly long fetal pig guts are. She did a great job recently of nursing our elderly cat through the end of her life (including giving her subcutaneous fluids at home). Her stated goal is to become a family practitioner - just like our family doctor - so she can follow her patients from birth to death.

We've been putting money aside in an RESP for years, to help get her through university. She'll be working and saving as well, to pay for the rest of it.


I'm sorry your son won't be able to do the same.

Does Canada require 4 years of University in addition to the 3 years of Medical School?

I was wondering what the cost of that will be for your daughter?

 

[LindaBabe]

but Oh Gosh, don't support the idea of national health insurance! That's "too much government interference". They'd rather we all went broke paying medical bills.

 

[vettechick99]

And she ran everything that she could have thought of because heaven forbid it wasn't "just dehydration" she would have been sued. 90% of the paperwork and testing we do in medicine is due to the risk of lawsuits.

Next time call your OB and have him see you and correct the situation. The overhead in the ER is massive and yes, patients are going to pay for that...because if it doesn't get paid, the next time you need an ER it may not be there.

I already said it wasn't the number of tests, but the amount they charge (minus the needless calcium check). And as far as I know, the ER and the lab are two separate entities.

And once again, this was a Sunday and my OB would have said go to the ER.

But you aren't paying for the tests alone, in a hospital setting you are paying for a highly skilled giant staff to be waiting in the wings for you when you need help if you need help. If you go into cardiac arrest you need a Dr right there and then, you can't wait for someone to pull a Cardiac Surgeon out of a picnic with his family so he can come in and help you. The guy needs to be there, just sitting there waiting to be needed. That right there is what you are paying for, the costs are high because they must be shared by everyone that walks through that door. Maybe this time you didn't require the highly skilled workforce but someday you might, or some one you love might, and then you'll be glad they were there. I don't understand how you could go there looking for help, get the help then be mad you have to keep up your end of the arrangement? I sure know I was glad they were there when my DD was wheeled in by ambulance because she had double pneumonia and a blood infection. DD11 only had hours, I can't imagine what would have happened if they had to assemble a staff to care for her AFTER they figured out who and what she needed. So yes, it was a lot of $ and yes, I wish I could use it for other stuff but I still think it was worth it in the end and harbor no resentment when I pay my bill.

Ok, you are totally going off topic. I have taken my child to the ER for not being able to breathe. She's got serious allergies and a cold turns into croup and asthma within hours. So don't even go there.

 

[minnie56]

Does Canada require 4 years of University in addition to the 3 years of Medical School?

I was wondering what the cost of that will be for your daughter?

I am interested to know the amount and as far as I know, yes there are 7 years here also. Our Universities are not as expensive as Stateside though this I know. I have 2 daughters..my oldest graduated with a dual degree, in Engineering and Chemistry. Her program was 5 years and if I recall correctly, the total cost would have been in the $40,000-$48,000 range. The youngest daughter graduated last year with a degree in Psychology and minor in Marketing. Her program was a little less at about $28,000-$32,000.

She now attends Parsons-The New School in NYC. She will come out with a degree (AAS) in Fashion Marketing and the tuition is $16,000 USD per term!!

Pretty big difference..

 

[abdmom]

Does Canada require 4 years of University in addition to the 3 years of Medical School?

I was wondering what the cost of that will be for your daughter?

Tuition at U of T (Canada's largest university) is $5K/year for undergraduate and $19K/year for medicine. Total for 4 years of both is $116K.

 

[Magpie]

Does Canada require 4 years of University in addition to the 3 years of Medical School?

I was wondering what the cost of that will be for your daughter?

Normally, it's a 3 year undergrad followed by 3 or 4 years of Medical school, although some schools will accept an MCAT in lieu of an undergrad. Admission requirements depend on the school. Fees vary widely. Medical school costs as little as 4000 dollars (if she chooses to live in Quebec), to as much as 20,000 dollars a year. Lower fees do not mean a lower quality school - McGill is one of the top-rated schools, and it's in Montreal, Quebec.

Not to mention, there are generous scholarships available, if she chooses to apply for them. I'll certainly be encouraging her to enter every competition she can!

Of course, all this is assuming she doesn't decide to go with her other top career pick - small animal veterinarian! She was checking out veterinary colleges the other day, and telling me a bit about them. (Apparently they also require an undergrad degree.)

 

[madscrapper]

Well, I have a couple of thoughts on this:

1) Who do you think pays for the uninsured??? Those of us who have insurance do. Hospitals would have to close their doors without the reimbursements from private insurance.

2) Most medical bills are inflated, submitted to the insurance companies who then pay the negotiated rates.

3) If you have private insurance, it's different for everybody. I pay a higher monthly premium so I have a low deductible. People who save money each month on premiums often have a higher deductible - that was your choice. I see people at work each day who are upset at their deductibles and costs - but that was the choice either you or your employer made.

4) My daughter became ill while we were visiting London. We were treated beautifully, quickly and professionally in the ER. She received care and a prescription - all for no charge. I know that a fellow traveler from the UK would have a totally different experience here - as evidenced by a previous poster.

5) Unless you are unconscious,you can always ask about charges before they are done. No, this isn't practical in a life threatening situation, but many times it can be done.

6) I have to agree with the poster who said that the cost is also to support a staff ready to jump in and take care of whatever comes through the door.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

As a nurse, I was wondering that myself. Kind of like the people who have back pain for 2 weeks and come to the ER on Christmas Day...sort of adds to the drama.

...

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. If I were pregnant and had an unexplained fever for 4-5 days, I'd be calling my doctor on Friday morning rather than stroll into the ER on the weekend.

One of the reasons ERs are so crowded is that people are using them for non life-threatening events.

I've been reading this thread and as a nurse I wondered this myself. Why not call the OB on Friday. And if it was Sunday, why not wait the extra day and call Monday?

I'm a little about this. Don't seek non-essential medical treatment in a place meant for emergencies, hence the name emergency department and then expect to pay next to nothing for treatment.

That PA didn't know you. Of course she ran every test under the sun. She was doing a CYA. Thank our sue happy society for this.

And to the poster who said she was pregnant and the hospital did a pregnancy test on her anyhow...again a CYA. I used to work in a womans hospital ED. We did a pregnancy test on every child bearing age woman who walked in the door. Unless she was in physical labor or there for a scheduled c-section. It was for proof to place on the chart, just in case.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I've been reading this thread and as a nurse I wondered this myself. Why not call the OB on Friday. And if it was Sunday, why not wait the extra day and call Monday?

I'm a little about this. Don't seek non-essential medical treatment in a place meant for emergencies, hence the name emergency department and then expect to pay next to nothing for treatment.

That PA didn't know you. Of course she ran every test under the sun. She was doing a CYA. Thank our sue happy society for this.

And to the poster who said she was pregnant and the hospital did a pregnancy test on her anyhow...again a CYA. I used to work in a womans hospital ED. We did a pregnancy test on every child bearing age woman who walked in the door. Unless she was in physical labor or there for a scheduled c-section. It was for proof to place on the chart, just in case.

I went in for a bleed on my son when I was about 15 weeks along. THey didn't have me pee in a cup for a pregnancy test as they were going to do an Ultrasound. They had first checked me with a doppler.

it was after hours--and I had been gushing, I did call my OB who told me to go to the ER.

I guess I am unclear on a woman who claims she is pregnant could be mistaken for not. But I guess peeing in a cup is cheaper than a doppler or Ultrasound. But I really have no idea.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

I went in for a bleed on my son when I was about 15 weeks along. THey didn't have me pee in a cup for a pregnancy test as they were going to do an Ultrasound. They had first checked me with a doppler.

it was after hours--and I had been gushing, I did call my OB who told me to go to the ER.

I guess I am unclear on a woman who claims she is pregnant could be mistaken for not. But I guess peeing in a cup is cheaper than a doppler or Ultrasound. But I really have no idea.

The pregnancy tests were done mainly for people who claimed they weren't pregnant. We all heard the stories of woman who claimed they didn't know they were pregnant until they delivered. We had quite a few woman in the years I worked in the ED say I am definetly not pregnant, yep they were.

What if she wasn't checked because she stated she wasn't pregnant, an x-ray or medication was given and it harmed the baby and then the woman is sueing. I guess the hospital felt a pee test is cheaper than a law suit. Plus if a patient outright refused the pregnancy test, we gave them a paper to sign stating they definetly knew they weren't pregnant and refused the test.

 

[SaraJayne]

I've been reading this thread and as a nurse I wondered this myself. Why not call the OB on Friday. And if it was Sunday, why not wait the extra day and call Monday?

I'm a little about this. Don't seek non-essential medical treatment in a place meant for emergencies, hence the name emergency department and then expect to pay next to nothing for treatment.

That PA didn't know you. Of course she ran every test under the sun. She was doing a CYA. Thank our sue happy society for this.

And to the poster who said she was pregnant and the hospital did a pregnancy test on her anyhow...again a CYA. I used to work in a womans hospital ED. We did a pregnancy test on every child bearing age woman who walked in the door. Unless she was in physical labor or there for a scheduled c-section. It was for proof to place on the chart, just in case.

Yup. Even though I told the ER nurse there was no way in heck I was pregnant, they still tested me, because they wanted to give me medicine that wasn't approved for pregnant women.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The pregnancy tests were done mainly for people who claimed they weren't pregnant. We all heard the stories of woman who claimed they didn't know they were pregnant until they delivered. We had quite a few woman in the years I worked in the ED say I am definetly not pregnant, yep they were.

What if she wasn't checked because she stated she wasn't pregnant, an x-ray or medication was given and it harmed the baby and then the woman is sueing. I guess the hospital felt a pee test is cheaper than a law suit. Plus if a patient outright refused the pregnancy test, we gave them a paper to sign stating they definetly knew they weren't pregnant and refused the test.

I understand proving she is not pregnant--but the poster whom you were speaking of had told them she was indeed pregnant.

She didn't deny it.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

I understand proving she is not pregnant--but the poster whom you were speaking of had told them she was indeed pregnant.

She didn't deny it.

I understand what you're saying . But when I was trained we were told to test everyone unless they refused and then they signed the refused paper.

People are odd, we also had people who would say they were pregnant but were not. Not sure if they were in denial, or just weird. Working in a city hospital's ED, you see just about anything and everything. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair.

I'm sure the hospital was burned some way in the past because nurses who were there years before I started told me pregnancy tests on everyone wasn't always the case.

 

[Tianar]

If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

As someone who plans to go into medicine, I find this insulting. Every medical school will tell you that if you are in it for the money, you are going into the wrong profession.

What's the incentive? Helping someone hurt less, diagnosing something they didn't know was there, SAVING SOMEONE'S LIFE. There shouldn't be anything more valuable than that. And for me, there isn't.

 

[BEloveDisney]

I've been reading this thread and as a nurse I wondered this myself. Why not call the OB on Friday. And if it was Sunday, why not wait the extra day and call Monday?

I'm a little about this. Don't seek non-essential medical treatment in a place meant for emergencies, hence the name emergency department and then expect to pay next to nothing for treatment.

That PA didn't know you. Of course she ran every test under the sun. She was doing a CYA. Thank our sue happy society for this.

And to the poster who said she was pregnant and the hospital did a pregnancy test on her anyhow...again a CYA. I used to work in a womans hospital ED. We did a pregnancy test on every child bearing age woman who walked in the door. Unless she was in physical labor or there for a scheduled c-section. It was for proof to place on the chart, just in case.

Random, but roliepolieoliefan, are you from Pittsburgh? Did you work at Magee?

 

[3prettyprincesses]

As someone who plans to go into medicine, I find this insulting. Every medical school will tell you that if you are in it for the money, you are going into the wrong profession.

What's the incentive? Helping someone hurt less, diagnosing something they didn't know was there, SAVING SOMEONE'S LIFE. There shouldn't be anything more valuable than that. And for me, there isn't.

While I agree whole-heartedly with you, I highly doubt that all people going into the medical profession feel that way. Money is a motivating factor for some and doctors (and lawyers) have always been touted as a wealthy profession. However, I have come across both amazing doctors who obviously love what they do and it comes out in the way they care for their patients and some who don't seem to care at all.

For example, I began seeing an endocrinologist 5 years ago for my thyroid. This doctor was recommended by a friend of a friend. When I began seeing him, his practice was very small and he spent a great deal of time going over tests, asking questions and listening. Now, it's like a cattle drive. I wait an hour past my appt. time every time to be seen. My appt. lasts 5 minutes, maybe 7 if I have a quick question. His whole demeanor has changed, he's very abrupt, hardly even says hello and starts flipping through my tests. He's made numerous mistakes about my chart which I had to correct and he's always trying to get me start new medications. He's completely different and his waiting room is always bursting with patients. What this tells me is that he's in it for the $ and is taking on patients like crazy.

Now I have a fabulous OB/GYN. He delivered 2 of my babies and is really kind and patient. When I was having strange health problems, I made an appt. to see him to discuss possible issues and he literally sat down and said tell me what's going on and I'll try to help. To me, that's a doctor who cares and is willing to spend more than 5 minutes with a patient.

It's frustrating to made to feel like you're inconviencing someone who has taken an oath (and your $) to help you. But like I said, there are doctors out there who are really in it for the sheer pleasure of helping and offering care. They are wonderful and I appreciate their dedication.

 

[HelenePA]

I understand proving she is not pregnant--but the poster whom you were speaking of had told them she was indeed pregnant.

She didn't deny it.

This does not matter.. I was 20wks preg with my dd#2 when I was in a car accident. I was life flighted to a trauma center. I told them I was pregnant. They got an ultrasound on me SAW the babies heartbeat.. they STILL wanted a pregnancy test