Sickened at hospital charges

[LuvOrlando]

I don't quite understand what you would have preferred the hospital do with you?

How else could that have treated a pregnant woman that shows up in an ER with unexplained fevers? If they didn't do the tests and you weren't made a priority and you didn't get better then what?

I'm kind of confused by the point of view. Do you think hospitals shouldn't charge if the person turns out ok?

Personally, I would much rather retain my right to go where I want, when I want to the hospital I want and see the Dr's I want and pay for it then some slacker for free because he/she happens to be on the day I get sick. TO each their own but I am gladly paying off my DD's November hospital bills for her Swine Flu/Pneumonia/Blood infection. She was in the best hands available and recovered well from an illness that kills 1 out of every 4 people that get it. I am grateful I was able to bypass the other 2 garbage hospitals that sit closer to my house to get to where she was treated and nothing anyone tells me about money will ever change my mind. If free means I don't get to choose 100% everything (who what where when why how) then I don't want free. If getting my choice means moving or paying outside of the system then that's where I'll be. Just like I pay for state housing but don't live there I guess I'll pay for state medical but not use it.

 

[Magpie]

I don't quite understand what you would have preferred the hospital do with you?

How else could that have treated a pregnant woman that shows up in an ER with unexplained fevers? If they didn't do the tests and you weren't made a priority and you didn't get better then what?

I'm kind of confused by the point of view. Do you think hospitals shouldn't charge if the person turns out ok?

Personally, I would much rather retain my right to go where I want, when I want to the hospital I want and see the Dr's I want and pay for it then some slacker for free because he/she happens to be on the day I get sick. TO each their own but I am gladly paying off my DD's November hospital bills for her Swine Flu/Pneumonia/Blood infection. She was in the best hands available and recovered well from an illness that kills 1 out of every 4 people that get it. I am grateful I was able to bypass the other 2 garbage hospitals that sit closer to my house to get to where she was treated and nothing anyone tells me about money will ever change my mind. If free means I don't get to choose 100% everything (who what where when why how) then I don't want free. If getting my choice means moving or paying outside of the system then that's where I'll be. Just like I pay for state housing but don't live there I guess I'll pay for state medical but not use it.

I've never understood this statement from Americans. Don't your HMOs decide who you can see, and which hospitals you're allowed to use?

Me, I can go to ANY hospital in my city - and in any other Canadian city - I want. All I have to do is walk in, with my Health Card in hand. I can go to any clinic I like, any time I like. I've never been denied care at any time, for any reason.

Nobody has ever told me who to see or where to go. And if my doctor decides I need a procedure done, then I will get it done. No Insurance Agent can ever come between me and my doctor, thank goodness!

 

[LuvOrlando]

I do not have a HMO. I have a PPO so I pick and choose either in network, out of network or out of the box entirely as I see fit. This may cost me more but it's how I like things. PPO is an acronym for Preferred Provider Organization.

Lets look at my recent medical issue. If you were in my shoes and wanted to get an appointment to see one of the world's best Thyroid Cancer Dr's at one of the world's best cancer facilities next week, would you be able to get in to see him or her? Further, if you wanted to have surgery at his/her facility on a future date of your choice as long as he/she was available, could you do it? Can you sit with and discuss what drugs you are more comfortable with receiving regardless of expense? Can you refuse a protocol choice of treatment and go with alternatives that might be more costly but beneficial to you and your own set of circumstances? Can you insist on getting useful tests done that might not be 100% necessary but would help you make a better decision, like when I was checked to see if my nodule was hot or cold? Can you get a second, third and fourth opinion, get 4 absolutely different answers and go with whichever Dr you prefer? Can you ask to be watched with tests for a while before selecting radical treatment even if this course of action is more expensive because you are willing to pay for it out of pocket even if the pencil pushers reject the choice? Can you flat out reject protocol treatment or meds for something you read about that might be better? Can you read that PET scans are useful in finding stray cancers, find a Dr to write you a scrip for it as elective, walk in and get it done out of pocket even though whoever is looking over your file thinks it is un-necessary?

I ask because my DH has colleges from Europe who fly their families into the US for life saving procedures because the Dr's are backlogged back home. Recently, one woman he works with got a second mortgage to pay for her Mom's brain cancer surgery because the Mom would have been dead before she was scheduled for the surgery. Her Mom is still here, DH's colleague has lots of bills but her Mom is still here and I don't think he ever heard her voice any resentment about the bills because her Mom is still here.

I like the freedom to opt in or out of the plan that covers me. If I'm comfortable with what the plan prescribes I am free to go with it, but I am equally free to go outside of the boundaries and seek medical care outside of the parameters set up by policy makers. My Dr is not bound to bureaucratic recipes. He and I can speak freely about what my plan wants me to do as opposed to my other options and I like it this way. If I am going to do everything exactly the same as now and it's all free then that's one thing but, somehow, I sincerely doubt it. The way things are now might be expensive but freedom is expensive and I'm ok with that. I'm jaded and immune to the infomercials, I don't buy anything people are trying to sell me, I am not a worker bee willing to be soothed by smoke.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

When my son passed out cold twice in one morning - we went to the ER. When they tested his heart in the ER and found something questionable, he went right on the high priority list to be seen at the Heart Institute.

He was in there getting his heart examined, the very next day!

No wait times at all, and all it cost us was a few coins for parking.

In contrast when my son (U.S.) suddenly developed a breathing problem that made him sound like an air raid siren, and caused every pediatrician in the building to come running to him in a panic, I took him to the E.R. (in the U.S.) where they told me that "kids with this condition sometimes just stop breathing, because it's too much work. He needs to be on an apnea monitor to make sure he doesn't die. We process that paperwork on Tuesdays (this was a Friday) please come back then."

 

[Piecey]

I paid that much just for half my pregnancy. At the time, our deductible was based on a Jan-Dec yearly calendar. I found out I was pregnant in late October, had to meet the deductible for 2002, basically paying most OOP, then meet the deductible again for 2003.

You really shoul send her a fruit basket, flowers or something.

That stinks!

We did give her one of the chocolate cigars we had purchased from Sarris (anyone who has had Sarris can imagine the drool) and she talked about the cigar a few times later on. We discussed getting her something this time around, including a bunch of Sarris chocolate!!

When I had my twins I had FABULOUS health coverage...I paid $20 for the ENTIRE high risk pregnancy. Yep, $20. At least to my ob/gyn. I did have to pay another one-time $20 copay to my high-risk ob, and also had to see an endocrinologist due to pg-induced thyroid problems, which was a $20 copay the 4 times I saw him. But that was it. I think I paid maybe $120 total for a very complicated pregnancy and a 34-week c-section and 96 hour hospital stay.

I consider myself very, very lucky! DH has since switched jobs and while we are still blessed to have comprehensive coverage, our oop costs would be much, much higher with this policy. Heck, so far I have paid $700 oop just for DD to get 4 flippin' stitches in her chin, which they did right in the hallway at the hospital and it took less than an hour!

I know what you mean, we are very, very lucky too. The $2200 I mentioned was what insurance paid- my insurance pays maternity (all testing, prenatal, delivery and postpartum care for baby and myself) at 100% (it's not even subject to the deductible)... so we paid nothing to actually have DS and we'll pay nothing this time either. We paid less than that $2200 in premiums for all 3 of us, too. DH is a federal employee, though, so our insurance is quite exceptional.

 

[minnie56]

I know you didn't ask me..but...I have a Thyroid Condition. A few years back..I asked to see the best there was here. He wrote the textbooks for Medical schools. Within 4 days I was in his office..on meds. If I wish to see a Dr for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th opinion, that is my perogative. My medical care including drugs and options are able to be freely discussed and together with my Dr I can make the best choices. Our health care is not for profit..and I am happy about that. More than 700,000 American's file bankruptcy a year because of medical bills and that, in 2010, is sad.

 

[lsyorke]

How else could that have treated a pregnant woman that shows up in an ER with unexplained fevers? If they didn't do the tests and you weren't made a priority and you didn't get better then what?

If one goes to the ER they are going to have tests done to rule out any possibility..and yes that is going to cost. They cannot assume that it's just dehydration. ER's are the most expensive place to be treated, so every other option should be exhausted before going there.
Hospitals are going under left and right..believe me, their not making huge money.
Last week we were notified of a 5% salary reduction to prevent us from going out of business...if we did it would be the 5th hospital to close in our county alone out of 7 hospitals 2 years ago. We took the reduction without complaint to keep our hospital open.

 

[Magpie]

I like the freedom to opt in or out of the plan that covers me. If I'm comfortable with what the plan prescribes I am free to go with it, but I am equally free to go outside of the boundaries and seek medical care outside of the parameters set up by policy makers. My Dr is not bound to bureaucratic recipes. He and I can speak freely about what my plan wants me to do as opposed to my other options and I like it this way. If I am going to do everything exactly the same as now and it's all free then that's one thing but, somehow, I sincerely doubt it. The way things are now might be expensive but freedom is expensive and I'm ok with that. I'm jaded and immune to the infomercials, I don't buy anything people are trying to sell me, I am not a worker bee willing to be soothed by smoke.

I can say exactly the same thing. My doctor is not bound by "bureaucratic recipes". He's not beholden to insurance agents. Freedom that's too expensive for the majority to afford isn't freedom. That's like saying an intentured servant is free - all he has to do is get rich enough to buy himself out of servitude!

FWIW - I don't have a Thyroid condition, but I did notice that a PP - Canadian - does and didn't have any problem with seeing the specialist of her choice.

As for your other specific questions...

Further, if you wanted to have surgery at his/her facility on a future date of your choice as long as he/she was available, could you do it?

Yes, my mother in law wanted to have her knees done in our town, instead of hers, so she could stay with us and be looked after. Because she was asking for a later date instead of an earlier one, her knees were scheduled at her convenience. Ditto for MY mother, who needed eye surgery, but needed to fit it around her overseas work schedule.

Can you sit with and discuss what drugs you are more comfortable with receiving regardless of expense?

Yes, and the wonderful part of that is that I can do it either with my doctor, with the doctor at the clinic OR with the pharmacist, who can recommend a generic if we're not happy with the price of the name-brand. I get recurrent infections and have had many conversations about my options in antibiotics and how long or short a period of time I want them for.

Can you refuse a protocol choice of treatment and go with alternatives that might be more costly but beneficial to you and your own set of circumstances?

Yes, see above.

Can you insist on getting useful tests done that might not be 100% necessary but would help you make a better decision, like when I was checked to see if my nodule was hot or cold?

Yes, when we were trying to figure out what was wrong with our son, I had his blood tested for anemia. My doctor didn't think it was necessary, but I asked and it was done. (It wasn't necessary - oh well!) My doctor also didn't think he needed allergy testing, but when I asked, he referred us to a specialist. As it turns out my son is very allergic to tree pollens, which explains all the hives he's been getting this spring.

Can you get a second, third and fourth opinion, get 4 absolutely different answers and go with whichever Dr you prefer?

Yes.

Can you ask to be watched with tests for a while before selecting radical treatment even if this course of action is more expensive because you are willing to pay for it out of pocket even if the pencil pushers reject the choice?

Yes, because the only person to accept or reject ANY choice is me and my doctor. There are no pencil pushers/insurance agents.

Can you flat out reject protocol treatment or meds for something you read about that might be better?

This depends on whether the meds have been approved for use in Canada - but that's exactly the same in the US. Everyone has to pay for their own experimental treatments, no matter where you live. Also, there are orphan diseases that get overlooked, but those diseases aren't covered by American insurance companies, either. Nothing's stopping me from getting this treatment - I just have to pay for it. So that puts me in the exact same place as you.

Can you read that PET scans are useful in finding stray cancers, find a Dr to write you a scrip for it as elective, walk in and get it done out of pocket even though whoever is looking over your file thinks it is un-necessary?

If I'm wealthy enough, yes. Just like you!

Anyone in either of our countries can end up having to take out a second mortgage to pay for treatment for something unexpected. But the difference is, I don't have to take out a second mortgage just because my kid banged his head and ruptured his eardrum, got meningitis and ended up hospitalized for a month. Which means I'll actually be able to take out that second mortgage if my mother gets brain cancer and we want her treated out of the country.

I have all the same freedom of choice you have. In fact, I have more freedom, because I don't have the same financial constraints. An unexpected visit to the emergency room doesn't mean we have to cancel our vacation, tighten our belts, or worry about co-pays. All we need to worry about is our child.

 

[autumnpalm]

I can say exactly the same thing. My doctor is not bound by "bureaucratic recipes". He's not beholden to insurance agents. Freedom that's too expensive for the majority to afford isn't freedom. That's like saying an intentured servant is free - all he has to do is get rich enough to buy himself out of servitude!

FWIW - I don't have a Thyroid condition, but I did notice that a PP - Canadian - does and didn't have any problem with seeing the specialist of her choice.

As for your other specific questions...



Yes, my mother in law wanted to have her knees done in our town, instead of hers, so she could stay with us and be looked after. Because she was asking for a later date instead of an earlier one, her knees were scheduled at her convenience. Ditto for MY mother, who needed eye surgery, but needed to fit it around her overseas work schedule.



Yes, and the wonderful part of that is that I can do it either with my doctor, with the doctor at the clinic OR with the pharmacist, who can recommend a generic if we're not happy with the price of the name-brand. I get recurrent infections and have had many conversations about my options in antibiotics and how long or short a period of time I want them for.



Yes, see above.



Yes, when we were trying to figure out what was wrong with our son, I had his blood tested for anemia. My doctor didn't think it was necessary, but I asked and it was done. (It wasn't necessary - oh well!) My doctor also didn't think he needed allergy testing, but when I asked, he referred us to a specialist. As it turns out my son is very allergic to tree pollens, which explains all the hives he's been getting this spring.



Yes.



Yes, because the only person to accept or reject ANY choice is me and my doctor. There are no pencil pushers/insurance agents.



This depends on whether the meds have been approved for use in Canada - but that's exactly the same in the US. Everyone has to pay for their own experimental treatments, no matter where you live. Also, there are orphan diseases that get overlooked, but those diseases aren't covered by American insurance companies, either. Nothing's stopping me from getting this treatment - I just have to pay for it. So that puts me in the exact same place as you.



If I'm wealthy enough, yes. Just like you!

Anyone in either of our countries can end up having to take out a second mortgage to pay for treatment for something unexpected. But the difference is, I don't have to take out a second mortgage just because my kid banged his head and ruptured his eardrum, got meningitis and ended up hospitalized for a month. Which means I'll actually be able to take out that second mortgage if my mother gets brain cancer and we want her treated out of the country.

I have all the same freedom of choice you have. In fact, I have more freedom, because I don't have the same financial constraints. An unexpected visit to the emergency room doesn't mean we have to cancel our vacation, tighten our belts, or worry about co-pays. All we need to worry about is our child.

Yep! I have had a lot of medical problems- from heart problems to injuries like broken bones/tendons, stitches, etc and I feel blessed every day for the health care I receive in Canada. I'm thrilled with the care I've gotten.

I would love to live in the US, I think it is a wonderful country but reading threads like these scares me... I have no idea what kind of coverage I would be able to get and honestly don't know if I could afford the premiums due to pre-existing conditions. But oh, how I would love to live in a place where I could shop at Target!

 

[minnie56]

We have a lot of freedom within our health care...my DD23 attends school in New York City. The school insisted she have medical coverage as expected..and gave us a quote for a pretty steep plan. I went into our local OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) office and completed forms for an extended absence from Canada for her so that as a student, she would be 100% covered for any and all medical needs. When they were offering flu shots last Fall--both H1N1 and regular strain, her health insurance here in Canada paid. When she had Strep in December, again they covered the cost.

We may have lots of things we aren't thrilled with in life...but wondering whether we can or should see a Dr isn't one of them.

 

[vettechick99]

I don't quite understand what you would have preferred the hospital do with you?

How else could that have treated a pregnant woman that shows up in an ER with unexplained fevers? If they didn't do the tests and you weren't made a priority and you didn't get better then what?

I'm kind of confused by the point of view. Do you think hospitals shouldn't charge if the person turns out ok?

Yes, that's what I said. I shouldn't be charged at all.

$3,000 for that visit is too high. She was a PA so she ran every test she could think of (she said as much). My OB later said that he could tell it wasn't a doctor who saw me because doctors know pregnant women's levels of calcium always look low. If you want an accurate level you have to do a completely different test. So that was wasted money. MY money.

And $3,000 when I didn't even get to see a doctor? Yea, more money well spent.

I'm not as much annoyed at the number of tests (except the calcium one). I'm more annoyed at the inflated prices. It's just too high for services received.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I can say exactly the same thing. My doctor is not bound by "bureaucratic recipes". He's not beholden to insurance agents. Freedom that's too expensive for the majority to afford isn't freedom. That's like saying an intentured servant is free - all he has to do is get rich enough to buy himself out of servitude!

FWIW - I don't have a Thyroid condition, but I did notice that a PP - Canadian - does and didn't have any problem with seeing the specialist of her choice.

As for your other specific questions...



Yes, my mother in law wanted to have her knees done in our town, instead of hers, so she could stay with us and be looked after. Because she was asking for a later date instead of an earlier one, her knees were scheduled at her convenience. Ditto for MY mother, who needed eye surgery, but needed to fit it around her overseas work schedule.



Yes, and the wonderful part of that is that I can do it either with my doctor, with the doctor at the clinic OR with the pharmacist, who can recommend a generic if we're not happy with the price of the name-brand. I get recurrent infections and have had many conversations about my options in antibiotics and how long or short a period of time I want them for.



Yes, see above.



Yes, when we were trying to figure out what was wrong with our son, I had his blood tested for anemia. My doctor didn't think it was necessary, but I asked and it was done. (It wasn't necessary - oh well!) My doctor also didn't think he needed allergy testing, but when I asked, he referred us to a specialist. As it turns out my son is very allergic to tree pollens, which explains all the hives he's been getting this spring.



Yes.



Yes, because the only person to accept or reject ANY choice is me and my doctor. There are no pencil pushers/insurance agents.



This depends on whether the meds have been approved for use in Canada - but that's exactly the same in the US. Everyone has to pay for their own experimental treatments, no matter where you live. Also, there are orphan diseases that get overlooked, but those diseases aren't covered by American insurance companies, either. Nothing's stopping me from getting this treatment - I just have to pay for it. So that puts me in the exact same place as you.



If I'm wealthy enough, yes. Just like you!

Anyone in either of our countries can end up having to take out a second mortgage to pay for treatment for something unexpected. But the difference is, I don't have to take out a second mortgage just because my kid banged his head and ruptured his eardrum, got meningitis and ended up hospitalized for a month. Which means I'll actually be able to take out that second mortgage if my mother gets brain cancer and we want her treated out of the country.

I have all the same freedom of choice you have. In fact, I have more freedom, because I don't have the same financial constraints. An unexpected visit to the emergency room doesn't mean we have to cancel our vacation, tighten our belts, or worry about co-pays. All we need to worry about is our child.

Good for you, but I'm not going around saying mine is better than yours, you opened that can of worms and as far as I'm concerned I'm still firmly convinced what I have is better for me. What I don't get is why some are trying so hard to convince me otherwise? Why on earth do those of you who live in other countries feel it's so ok to compare yourselves to us? Yay you but I don't want it, am not interested and will not co-operate. I like the way we do things here and am not into being taken by the hand by other countries.

The thing I find most interesting in the whole thing is that the sharpest minds in Europe do not become Dr's in Europe like they do here. The go out and get lots of degrees and go to work where the $ happens to be which isn't medicine it's in business. I myself have been counseling my DS12 away from being a surgeon. It was his dream for long time to follow in my Grandfathers footsteps and be an Orthopedic Surgeon. He's got the brains and the ambition but I don't see how he can pay off a quarter of a million dollars in med school bills plus forgo all the earning years he needs to spend in school if he isn't able to charge what he wants. The math simply doesn't add up, once the current Dr's age out of the system who is going to do the job? I think there will be a long term difference.

How much do Dr's in your country make a year? Whatever it is I'm sure it's not enough. I suspect the Dr's there are as disgruntled as our public education teachers are here and I think it's a bad mix. If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

When I go to Sloan Kettering and sit in that office there are people from all over the world in there with me. In my opinion there is no greater testament to US medical facilities than that, it's ok with me if it isn't free as long as it's worth it in the end.

BTW, you don't have to agree with me. I'm not looking to force American version of health-care down any other countries throat, live & let live... just don't try to tell me I've got it all wrong.

 

[lsyorke]

Yes, that's what I said. I shouldn't be charged at all.

$3,000 for that visit is too high. She was a PA so she ran every test she could think of (she said as much). My OB later said that he could tell it wasn't a doctor who saw me because doctors know pregnant women's levels of calcium always look low. If you want an accurate level you have to do a completely different test. So that was wasted money. MY money.

And $3,000 when I didn't even get to see a doctor? Yea, more money well spent.

I'm not as much annoyed at the number of tests (except the calcium one). I'm more annoyed at the inflated prices. It's just too high for services received.

And she ran everything that she could have thought of because heaven forbid it wasn't "just dehydration" she would have been sued. 90% of the paperwork and testing we do in medicine is due to the risk of lawsuits.

Next time call your OB and have him see you and correct the situation. The overhead in the ER is massive and yes, patients are going to pay for that...because if it doesn't get paid, the next time you need an ER it may not be there.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Yes, that's what I said. I shouldn't be charged at all.

$3,000 for that visit is too high. She was a PA so she ran every test she could think of (she said as much). My OB later said that he could tell it wasn't a doctor who saw me because doctors know pregnant women's levels of calcium always look low. If you want an accurate level you have to do a completely different test. So that was wasted money. MY money.

And $3,000 when I didn't even get to see a doctor? Yea, more money well spent.

I'm not as much annoyed at the number of tests (except the calcium one). I'm more annoyed at the inflated prices. It's just too high for services received.

But you aren't paying for the tests alone, in a hospital setting you are paying for a highly skilled giant staff to be waiting in the wings for you when you need help if you need help. If you go into cardiac arrest you need a Dr right there and then, you can't wait for someone to pull a Cardiac Surgeon out of a picnic with his family so he can come in and help you. The guy needs to be there, just sitting there waiting to be needed. That right there is what you are paying for, the costs are high because they must be shared by everyone that walks through that door. Maybe this time you didn't require the highly skilled workforce but someday you might, or some one you love might, and then you'll be glad they were there. I don't understand how you could go there looking for help, get the help then be mad you have to keep up your end of the arrangement? I sure know I was glad they were there when my DD was wheeled in by ambulance because she had double pneumonia and a blood infection. DD11 only had hours, I can't imagine what would have happened if they had to assemble a staff to care for her AFTER they figured out who and what she needed. So yes, it was a lot of $ and yes, I wish I could use it for other stuff but I still think it was worth it in the end and harbor no resentment when I pay my bill.

 

[minnie56]

Good for you, but I'm not going around saying mine is better than yours, you opened that can of worms and as far as I'm concerned I'm still firmly convinced what I have is better for me. What I don't get is why some are trying so hard to convince me otherwise? Why on earth do those of you who live in other countries feel it's so ok to compare yourselves to us? Yay you but I don't want it, am not interested and will not co-operate. I like the way we do things here and am not into being taken by the hand by other countries.

The thing I find most interesting in the whole thing is that the sharpest minds in Europe do not become Dr's in Europe like they do here. The go out and get lots of degrees and go to work where the $ happens to be which isn't medicine it's in business. I myself have been counseling my DS12 away from being a surgeon. It was his dream for long time to follow in my Grandfathers footsteps and be an Orthopedic Surgeon. He's got the brains and the ambition but I don't see how he can pay off a quarter of a million dollars in med school bills plus forgo all the earning years he needs to spend in school if he isn't able to charge what he wants. The math simply doesn't add up, once the current Dr's age out of the system who is going to do the job? I think there will be a long term difference.

How much do Dr's in your country make a year? Whatever it is I'm sure it's not enough. I suspect the Dr's there are as disgruntled as our public education teachers are here and I think it's a bad mix. If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

I can't speak for all Dr's ...but I know a few. One..a Radiologist (Chief of Radiology) ..in excess of $500,000 a year. His wife, a Psychiatrist, 2 clinics...in excess of $400,000 a year. They have a home here worth maybe $1.7 million, a condo downtown Toronto that their University age daughter lives in, a home in England and a condo in Scottsdale.Daughter's best friend, father is a GP and I have no numbers, except to say they live in an home worth $2 Million plus...own a home in Florida as well as multiple buildings in Texas for investment. No pity party for any of them any time soon!

 

[Magpie]

Good for you, but I'm not going around saying mine is better than yours, you opened that can of worms and as far as I'm concerned I'm still firmly convinced what I have is better for me. What I don't get is why some are trying so hard to convince me otherwise? Why on earth do those of you who live in other countries feel it's so ok to compare yourselves to us? Yay you but I don't want it, am not interested and will not co-operate. I like the way we do things here and am not into being taken by the hand by other countries.

The thing I find most interesting in the whole thing is that the sharpest minds in Europe do not become Dr's in Europe like they do here. The go out and get lots of degrees and go to work where the $ happens to be which isn't medicine it's in business. I myself have been counseling my DS12 away from being a surgeon. It was his dream for long time to follow in my Grandfathers footsteps and be an Orthopedic Surgeon. He's got the brains and the ambition but I don't see how he can pay off a quarter of a million dollars in med school bills plus forgo all the earning years he needs to spend in school if he isn't able to charge what he wants. The math simply doesn't add up, once the current Dr's age out of the system who is going to do the job? I think there will be a long term difference.

How much do Dr's in your country make a year? Whatever it is I'm sure it's not enough. I suspect the Dr's there are as disgruntled as our public education teachers are here and I think it's a bad mix. If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

Family physicians in Canada make an average of $202000 a year, as of 2006.

My 14yo daughter wants to be a doctor, not for the money (although it does sound like a lot!), but because she wants to help people and she loves science. Her favorite book when she was four was "The Canadian Medical Association of Children's Symptoms". When she was eight she was lucky enough to enroll in a dissection course and I still remember her excitedly showing me how amazingly long fetal pig guts are. She did a great job recently of nursing our elderly cat through the end of her life (including giving her subcutaneous fluids at home). Her stated goal is to become a family practitioner - just like our family doctor - so she can follow her patients from birth to death.

We've been putting money aside in an RESP for years, to help get her through university. She'll be working and saving as well, to pay for the rest of it.

I'm sorry your son won't be able to do the same.

 

[Carly_Roach]

I myself have been counseling my DS12 away from being a surgeon. It was his dream for long time to follow in my Grandfathers footsteps and be an Orthopedic Surgeon. He's got the brains and the ambition but I don't see how he can pay off a quarter of a million dollars in med school bills plus forgo all the earning years he needs to spend in school if he isn't able to charge what he wants. The math simply doesn't add up, once the current Dr's age out of the system who is going to do the job? I think there will be a long term difference.

How much do Dr's in your country make a year? Whatever it is I'm sure it's not enough. I suspect the Dr's there are as disgruntled as our public education teachers are here and I think it's a bad mix. If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

This alone tells me that it's all about the benjamins for you...which is fine for you. A majority of the youngsters who want to be doctors aren't in it for the money; they're thinking of the altruistic value of helping people.

To tell you the truth, I'd rather have a doctor treating me who cared more about my welfare than he/she would about the money they're going to make off of me, which is why - given the choice - I'd much rather have a doctor from the "Socialized" countries than this one. It sounds to me as if they're making good money there, anyway.

When I go into my family practice, the whole experience from start to finish is

• Take a number
• Wait
• Get into a room
• Wait
• Nurse takes my vitals
• Wait
• Doctor finally arrives at my cell of the gerbil wheel. Spends about five minutes with me. Gives me her opinion. Moves to the next cell.
• Get dressed
• Pay the bill

I can hardly see how this format is any different from any other country's format except I get the priviledge of paying $50.00 just to walk into the office and the price goes up from there.

As for the special situations that the alarmists frequently trot out because they're afraid of change (lethal brain tumors, emergency liver surgeries, alien babies, etc), those situations don't apply, and will likely never apply, to the vast majority of American citizens who are currently uninsured or underinsured.

I'm glad you have great insurance. I'm glad you can afford to pay for your medical treatment. Unfortunately, your experience doesn't match the overwelming number of people in the US. As for me, I'll be happy when 2014 gets here and I can finally tell BCBS where to get off.

 

[dbriggsq]

I'm from the UK and my only experience of the US medical system was in 2001 when we were at Disney when DH had a bladder problem over a couple of days which ended in a complete blockage where all he was passing was blood (sorry if TMI). We took a taxi to the ER and I managed to get him to the front desk and all the lady was interested in was 'how was I going to pay' At that point my brain was so frazzled I couldn't think except to say that we had travel insurance. She kept asking how we were going to pay - at this point I had to take DH to some seats as he just about collapsed - I remembered I had a credit card which I gave to her and she spent ages filling in forms whilst DH writhed in agony.

The upshot was that we spend a morning in the ER - a doctor came in a couple of times to take samples and said he had an infection - sent him out with antibiotics although there was still a complete blockage and he was in agony. This eventually resolved later that evening (the pressure eventually became too much).

On returning home and having further investigation he was firstly told he had bladder cancer!! Then that he had a very rare condition called amyloidosis which can be life threatening but not so serious if confined to the bladder. The service we received in the UK which is free at the point of service was fantastic in his case. Although we had private insurance we were told that this would not be helpful in this circumstance and we couldn't fault the doctors or system (even to the point of free hotel accommodation in London which was the only place the tests could be carried out) However the service in the case of my elderly father was appalling - he was basically neglected to death for 5 weeks in hospital where they completely failed (in 5 weeks!!!) to diagnose that he had bowel cancer.

We still had demands from the hospital when we got home even though the insurance company had paid what was required. I can't remember exactly how much we were charged but it was an amazing amount for service (or in our case non service ) we received. The over riding memory from the whole situation was that the main thing they were concerned about was the money and not the obvious medical emergency that DH was suffering.

In a civilised society it should be possible to provide fair medical care whether it be paid for by the state (and indirectly by people by their taxes) or by insurance. I worry that we are being shortchanged because of the greed of insurance companies which forces the cost of care upwards

 

[minnie56]

It's this that I find saddest..

If you aren't free to charge what you want where is the incentive to be good at it?

That means that the 'good' Dr's are only acessible to those that can pay the hefty bill. And I wouldn't want a Dr whose only judged his merit by how much he could stiff people for. Problem is, as my wonderful Endocrinologist said to me many times, Dr's today aren't happy living like Lords and Ladies, they want to be Kings and Queens.

When is enough money enough?

 

[si-am]

As a nurse, I was wondering that myself. Kind of like the people who have back pain for 2 weeks and come to the ER on Christmas Day...sort of adds to the drama.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. If I were pregnant and had an unexplained fever for 4-5 days, I'd be calling my doctor on Friday morning rather than stroll into the ER on the weekend.

One of the reasons ERs are so crowded is that people are using them for non life-threatening events.