Should these people be charged with murder?

[Freyja]

Assuming these doctors did this in order to spare suffering, I think they should be charged for the breaking the law but I don't think they should serve any time.

I agree!

 

[kidshop]

I don't need to imagine. If they were not guilty it would be by reason of insanity. They didn't protect these people. They made a deity-decision to control the outcome. That is not the oath they took.

While I don't think they should be going to jail for it, they certainly don't deserve to continue practicing.

Much like the nursing home owners who left their people to die. The only difference is they didn't give a cocktail.

But in this case they would have had to sit and watch these old, suffering people die a slow death. They did not abandon them, and I do believe they did what they thought was best, let them die a relatively peaceful death or suffer horribly for days before dying anyway. These were very old and very sick people who would not have made it until the rescue. It was unbearably hot with no food and no water. I do not think it was murder they committed. Desperate times sometimes means desperate measures. If it was a relative of mine, I would be thankful they were let go and not made to suffer. We don't even do that to animals. Theones who left the nursing home full of poeple....now THAT was murder.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but I believe they did it for the good of those who died.

 

[declansdad]

If these health professionals made this decision on their own without input from these patients, then yes they certainly should be tried. They made a decision to willfully end the life of another human being and should be punished.

If the patients were involved in the decision and were capable of rational thought, the circumstances are somewhat changed but they still violated the law.

 

[Ms Marigny]

But in this case they would have had to sit and watch these old, suffering people die a slow death. They did not abandon them, and I do believe they did what they thought was best, let them die a relatively peaceful death or suffer horribly for days before dying anyway. These were very old and very sick people who would not have made it until the rescue. It was unbearably hot with no food and no water. I do not think it was murder they committed. Desperate times sometimes means desperate measures. If it was a relative of mine, I would be thankful they were let go and not made to suffer. We don't even do that to animals. Theones who left the nursing home full of poeple....now THAT was murder.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but I believe they did it for the good of those who died.

I totally agree...
I had family members who were at Memorial when this happened, SIL who worked there, FIL who was a sick patient there and MIL who was staying with him, and they described their experience at the hospital as horrible- the conditions there were absolutely terrible and it was doubtful that those patients who were very ill would have survived much longer, they were most definitely suffering. FIL almost didn't survive. Help did not come to rescue the patients and employees for three to four days. I feel that whatever the hospital staff did do was for the good of the patients, whether they administered lethal injections or not (they claim they are innocent).

 

[Keli]

YES I think these people should be charged. It is not their place to decide when or if someone dies. They are not God and they had no right to pretend they were..

 

[MScott1851]

The problem is, no one knows what really happened. I've seen many patients who were critically ill BEGGING for pain meds, and if you give them even a normal dose, it can depress their respiratory effort enough that the next dose might just kill them.

I work for Tenet. We're in a world of **** right now, not only with the N.O. arrests, but with the $725 million Medicare fraud lawsuit we just settled in Florida. But that has NOTHING to do with my opinion about these nurse and doctors. What these hospitals and nurses did is the same thing you have to do in any mass casualty incident. You triage, decide where to expend your efforts, and sadly, some people simply are not well enough to survive, even under the best of care. It sounds cruel, but most public health policies in the U.S. outline standards of care in situations like this, and the patients that are deemed to be beyond help, you make comfortable, but you don't expend extraordinary effort on.

I talked to patients who were in that hospital, I took care of some that were evacuated from that hospital, and I worked alongside nurses that were evacuated from that hospital. One of them works with me now, and she has developed severe anxiety and actually started having a seizure disorder since she moved to Memphis. It's easy for people to sit in their desk chairs and judge from afar when they have NO CLUE what horrific conditions these nurses, doctors, and aides were dealing with. These patients didn't have food. They were running out of medicines. There was no way to run ventilators. There was no air conditioning or power after the generators blew. There were bugs, snakes, animals inside that hospital, the smell was overpowering by the second day. There was no water. Staff lived in constant fear of being attacked and killed by other people roving around just as desperate for food and water as they were, and also by looters and people trying to steal drugs. The staff was walking around with IV's in their arm just trying to stay strong enough to care for people.

The very first thing I did when I got my two evacuating patients in my ambulance leaving for Memphis was give each of them a shot of Ativan, and a shot of Dilaudid/Phenergan and hung an IV bag, because otherwise they couldn't have tolerated the 8 hour ride in a bumpy ambulance crammed into the back with me and another patient. They had been suffering for days with no food/water, and were in pain. had backups in case they wanted more, because, honestly, that was the only comfort measure I had with me. I wouldn't have given a lethal dose, but I also know that they would tolerate the transport more easily if they were sedated.

I didn't sleep for almost a week after I came home, I couldn't eat, and I didn't even go into the worst parts of N.O. But I had to see people who were so traumatized by Katrina, and what they had seen, and what they had done to survive. I don't for one minute think that I could have handled watching frail, elderly patients who were even on a good day near deaths' door suffer through that excruciating heat, no food, no water. You better believe that if they were crying out and begging for help, asking for pain meds, or something to relieve their suffering, then I would have given it in a heartbeat.

 

[HappyDznyCamper]

Very well put. My neighbors sister worked at the hospital during Katrina, what you said sounds alot like her story, including the post traumatic stress. I feel bad for the people who were only trying to help under dire circumstances, they did not know if or when help was coming. From things I have read I thought the ME was unable to determine a cause of death in any of these cases because the tissue sample were to badly damaged by the heat. This may simply be a case of a politician looking to see his name in the paper.

 

[HOGFAN]

yes, they should be charged

 

[Ms Marigny]

From things I have read I thought the ME was unable to determine a cause of death in any of these cases because the tissue sample were to badly damaged by the heat. This may simply be a case of a politician looking to see his name in the paper.

That is what I always heard as well, that is why I am surprised that this has resurfaced. I wouldn't doubt at all that is a politician seeking media attention, after all, we are dealing with New Orleans politicians.

 

[arminnie]

The problem is, no one knows what really happened.

And that is the best summary of the situation.

I know people who were at Tulane and Charity Hospitals - horrendous. Go read this series by the Atlanta paper on what it was like there - http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/twohospitals/entries/2006/05/05/chapter_1_of_22.html

The brother of a friend was a doctor at Memorial. He was not charged nor has he accused anyone. He said one of the doctors put her two dogs down before the evacations (because they wouldn't take dogs). I believe this is how some of the stories started.

I do believe these people are innocent until proven guilty. What I find unbelievable is they are talking life in prison when the average thug who kills another thug execution style is charged with what they call a "30 day murder" because that's about the amount of time the murderer spends in jail.

 

[Cool-Beans]

As a hospice nurse, I administered morphine to people who were in pain even though I knew it would hasten their death.

They were already actively dying. We're talking hours, or minutes. But the deal is (ethically, legally, and IMHO, morally) that we are allowed to take away suffering even if it means the person will die a little sooner. I wouldn't do a job where I had to say, "I don't care if he suffers, it isn't time for more morphine," where dying people were concerned.

If the patient is recovering from something (going to get better and live), I would have them hold on for the next dose. That's where PCA (the morphine button) comes in so handy.

The article didn't say if these people were already dying or if moving them was going to cause them a great deal of suffering.

If I had patients who I knew were about to die anyway and that moving them would just cause a great deal of suffering for no good reason, I'd give them the drug.

They showed this in a movie once - it might have been Schindler's List - the nazis were coming and the nurses were running around giving their old, sick people shots so that they'd die instead of having to suffer what was about to come.

I'm quite sure these doctors and nurses cared a lot did what they thought was best for the patient. If they hadn't cared, they could have evacuated and left them there to face whatever came. But they stayed and took care of those folks, gambling their very lives to do it.

Bio-ethics, though. Yikes. It is a minefield. Everyone has an opinion and most of them, even when they are different, are based on kindness.

 

[Cool-Beans]

Oh, and as far as whether people asked to die or not, I wouldn't put a whole lot of weight on that.

TONS of patients ask to die. They pray out loud for it, they ask the nurses for it. One guy was found on the floor with blood still coming out of his IV site (he pulled it himself). When he was back in bed and asked what he had been doing he said that he was going home to get his gun. He made a complete recovery. He also tried to give me money! God bless him.

Sometimes people ask to die, but you know they are going to make it through and be OK, and you have to tell them they can't die. You have to tell them that they are going to get better and have to tough this out.

I knew a girl who worked in a pediatric burn unit. Part of her job was scraping the skin off little kids and not stopping if they screamed. She decided that she couldn't do it anymore and quit. Said she'd rather see them die than that.

This stuff isn't easy.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I guess I'm a little shocked you would compare those two situations. I don't find them comparable at all.

Flooded building--no way to get the people safely out. The owners could have died with their patients.

In this case, how could they not be compared?

You have justified one over the other by your statement--but it was the same hurricane..and a dreadful circumstance. How are we to know what was going on in their minds.

You find it shocking to compare them.

I find it shocking to condone murder in the presence of a natural disaster and in the absence of hope.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

But in this case they would have had to sit and watch these old, suffering people die a slow death. They did not abandon them, .

As ducklite called attention too...

The statement is this was done to speed evacuation.

So basically they didn't have to abandon them, b/c they facilitated their death.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

As a hospice nurse, I administered morphine to people who were in pain even though I knew it would hasten their death.

They were already actively dying. We're talking hours, or minutes. But the deal is (ethically, legally, and IMHO, morally) that we are allowed to take away suffering even if it means the person will die a little sooner. I wouldn't do a job where I had to say, "I don't care if he suffers, it isn't time for more morphine," where dying people were concerned.

With all due respect as I am not a medical professional--but the article does say that they mixed two medications performing a lethal cocktail and administered it to the patient resulting in their death. It doesn't say they gave them extra doses to ease their suffering.

This does not sound like what you do at hospice.

 

[JennyMominRI]

As ducklite called attention too...

The statement is this was done to speed evacuation.

So basically they didn't have to abandon them, b/c they facilitated their death.

If this is how it went, I have to agree with you

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I knew a girl who worked in a pediatric burn unit. Part of her job was scraping the skin off little kids and not stopping if they screamed. She decided that she couldn't do it anymore and quit. Said she'd rather see them die than that.

This stuff isn't easy.

OMG--no doubt!

My daughter had second degree burns on just her toes--but I have never heard such a cry of pain in my life from a child. We were begging for some meds in ER for her. I couldn't bear to hear her suffer...and that was just her toes. (thankfully a quick dose of something good helped the pain, to calm her and after all that exhaustion she did fall asleep while being treated).

I don't blame the girl--treating burn victims...especially children has got to be one of the most emotionally painful treatments to administer. I still get goosebumps and tears in my eyes thinking about what my daughter went through for her *little* burn.

 

[lillygator]

Ok - reading the article....no...I don't think murder charges apply, but I am not sure what to do.


I am not clinical but I work for a hospital. We have specific hurricane teams...the clinicans bear the brunt of everything.....yet they still have families too, who, must stay at home. We are also a community hospital so we get everything and everyone. NO MATTER WHAT.....all the nursing homes come to our hospital as well as any SPECIAL NEEDS....(which is also questionable).

I can't imagine what these people were going through let alone the patients ---- can you? I would hate to have to make any kind of decision of that nature.

 

[disney4us2002]

I quickly scanned the article but what was it that led to an investigation and the discovery of the lethal dose? I wouldn't think it would be routine to autopsy an 89 or 90 yr old so was there something suspicious about the doc and nurses? Did they readily admit what they did?

Murder sounds harsh, but on the other hand...I just don't know. I think they should probably lose their medical license at the least.

 

[Cool-Beans]

With all due respect as I am not a medical professional--but the article does say that they mixed two medications performing a lethal cocktail and administered it to the patient resulting in their death. It doesn't say they gave them extra doses to ease their suffering.

This does not sound like what you do at hospice.

But if the patients WERE dying and they were just going to suffer in transport and not survive, then I think they did the right thing. Dying is dying, whever you are.

To me, it seems cruel to needlessly subject someone to pain. If they are dying, let them go without having to endure it first. That's my opinion and a big reason I went into hospice in the first place. I'm totally aware that there are other views on the subject and that the people who hold them are coming from good places.

No way I'd move a dying person in that situation. I'd have given them the drugs, too.

Of course, I don't know what the conditions were, I'm just speculating.


If they did the right thing, they shouldn't go to jail or lose their licenses or suffer ANY repercussions, IMHO.

And if they actually killed people so they'd have less headaches, then they of course they should go to jail.