Should the big3 get a bailout??

[LisaR]

I don't think all that money has been doled out yet...so in light of your response, which leaves one of my questions unanswered, should we bail out ALL mismanaged companies ...and the $25 Billion has been given out...while Honda and Toyota were thinking ahead with the Hybrid cars our "Big 3' morons were coming up with the Hummer, Tahoe, Escalade, Suburban, Expedition...yes, let's bail them out so because they have such great vision for the future...and before we bail them out why don't the three CEO's give back some of their millions of dollars salary and bonuses.

I love to engage in these conversations but can't do it with someone that clearly does not have ANY, I mean ANY of the facts straight. You couldn't be more wrong. There isn't a single thing quoted here that is factual.

 

[The Mayor]

The vehicles you mentioned were all HUGE sellers before the credit crunch and before gas skyrocketed.

You didn't answer all of my questions either!

Gas has been at or around $2.00 or more a gallon for a while now...why did the foriegn car makers see the writing on the wall????

 

[The Mayor]

I love to engage in these conversations but can't do it with someone that clearly does not have ANY, I mean ANY of the facts straight. You couldn't be more wrong. There isn't a single thing quoted here that is factual.

Honda & Toyota didn't come out with Hybrids ....the CEO's didn't mismanage the companies ...the Big three didn't come out with gas guzzlers...the Big three CEO's don't make MILLIONS while their comapnies lose HUGE money

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

I'm not against the bailouts if they are needed to keep the economy from collapsing, but I think we should all realize that this is an indication that free market capitalism by itself does not work. There are times we need to help those in need, whether they are businesses or individuals, and whether they are rich or poor.

 

[S. C.]

I do have sympathy for the workers...but again... will the government bail out my or other companies that have been mismangaed...NO...is my job or someone elses less important than an auto workers.

Is the autoworker any less important then the person who got took by the fly by night companies that messed up their morgages?

You don't seem to want to answer that question! YOU are the one that said it was alright by you to save if only ONE of the foreclosers because of the fly by night operaters. BUT...you don't want to save MILLIONS of JOBS and HOMES for the autoworkers, suppliers, etc.

 

[S. C.]

Gas has been at or around $2.00 or more a gallon for a while now...why did the foriegn car makers see the writing on the wall????

Interesting you only chose to bold about gas skyrocketing and not the credit crunch!

The vehicles you mentioned were all HUGE sellers before the credit crunch and before gas skyrocketed.

 

[S. C.]

And those SUVs have been their best selling products until the last few months ( and it appears with gas prices low again, they'll be back on top the sales charts again in the very near future. A good friend who works for a Ford dealership said it is only the tight credit market holding back the resumption of F150 sales).

As far as who deserves bailouts... I think the deciding factor needs to be the overall wellbeing of the nation. In the case of the banking sector, allowing the market to self-regulate would have brought too much to a screeching halt when credit came to an abrupt stop. The bailout should have been done much differently, with serious strings attached and a good deal of oversight, but it was a necessary evil. The auto bailout is in the same category. Bloomberg estimates the government costs of a Big 3 bankruptcy (just one, not all 3) at 150-200B in increased PBGC payouts, unemployment, welfare, etc. That isn't taking into account lost tax revenues, which would be in the same range over just 3 years. A 34B loan is a small price to pay to avoid nearly 10x that in increased spending and decreased revenues.

I agree!

 

[MoniqueU]

The big 3 is like Amtrack, we bail them out of this we will be sending money their way forever. Is it sad people will lose their jobs? Sure it is but sometimes that happens when unions push for too many benefits for a company to continue to be profitable. Add to that the quality issues and outdated products and you have a ticking time bomb.
I wasn't much for the bank bailout either and that so far hasn't seemed to have worked so well either.

 

[eliza61]

Should they get a bailout. Yes.
Do they deserve a bailout. No
Hopefully they will have lots of restrictions on the loan.

Unemployment is now close to 7% ( I think it's at 6.7%). November we lost 533,000 jobs. That is the highest rate of loss in 30 years. Predictions that if they don't get some help unemployment will jump near 10%

Sorry guys, no way can this country survive that. Congress will do some thing toprevent that. From what I saw on cnn, this morning. it's almost a sure thing.

 

[LisaR]

I don't think all that money has been doled out yet...so in light of your response, which leaves one of my questions unanswered, should we bail out ALL mismanaged companies ...and the $25 Billion has been given out...while Honda and Toyota were thinking ahead with the Hybrid cars our "Big 3' morons were coming up with the Hummer, Tahoe, Escalade, Suburban, Expedition...yes, let's bail them out so because they have such great vision for the future...and before we bail them out why don't the three CEO's give back some of their millions of dollars salary and bonuses.

Gas has been at or around $2.00 or more a gallon for a while now...why did the foriegn car makers see the writing on the wall????

Honda & Toyota didn't come out with Hybrids ....the CEO's didn't mismanage the companies ...the Big three didn't come out with gas guzzlers...the Big three CEO's don't make MILLIONS while their comapnies lose HUGE money

Let me refresh your memory.

1. You said the $25 billion has been handed out. Wrong! No truth to that at all. Not even close to being accurate. You have now said it two different times in this thread that it has been handed out. IT HASN'T.

2. You said that the Big 3 were "MORONS" for coming out with gas guzzlers. What?? Do you have a clue how many trucks and SUV's they sell? Those are their top sellers. You want them to stop something that is a profitable product when gas prices are low? Do you know what Ford had to do when gas started going down in October? They had to hire back 1000 workers for their truck plant because the DEMAND for trucks INCREASED.

3. See the writing on the wall?? Of course Toyota and Honda made small cars. They couldn't compete with our trucks and SUV's. It has taken Toyota forever to come up with a truck that is even close to the quality of an American made truck. It wasn't writing on the wall. They knew they couldn't compete with our trucks and suv's. They knew they could produce cars that cost them less money to make compared to our trucks. Plain common sense.

4. You also make it sound like the Big 3 has never made a small vehicle in their lives. Do you have a clue what products are on the market and the quality of those vehicles? Apparently not. Do you have a clue what they have done overseas? They do tremendously well because the governments overseas allow clean diesel. We could have a 67mpg car on our roadways tomorrow if our government would allow the use of a product that runs 50% of European cars. Don't tell me they can't make fuel efficient vehicles.

5. Best of all, you ask why the CEO's don't give back their salaries. You supported the banking bailout. Can you direct me to the list of CEO's that gave up their salary? I'd love to see the list. Mullaly, Waggoner and Nardelli have all agreed to go to a $1 per year salary. Too little, too late? Maybe but at least they are doing it. Again, I ask you if ANY of the CEO's in this banking bailout that YOU supported, agreed to do that? Bill Ford Jr. hasn't taken a salary in years. Granted, his stock options are huge but since stock is in the toilet right now, it doesn't matter. The top 5 executives with Ford have given up their bonuses repeatedly starting in 2002. Many others have been rewarded with millions but at least SOME have made attempts to help the company. Not perfect but I will ask AGAIN what the banking CEO's did with their salary?

 

[S. C.]

Excellent post LisaR!

 

[LuvOrlando]

When did it become ok for this government to act as an Insurance policy for all of our big businesses?

The biggest fall out, other than the obvious raise in taxes, will be that the international value of our dollar, and our country in general will absolutely flush right down the toilet. Right now the only value our country has is its integrity, if we sell that for a quick fix we will all live to regret it.

Part of he problem with the Auto Industry is they got greedy. The industry was humming along when cars were affordable with $1500 down and a $200-$300 a month lease payment, we all got new cars every 2-3 years and demand was steady. Then they started to raise lease prices to force us into buying the vehicles instead, last I checked every car out there wanted $3000 down after all the fees were added up and the monthly payments shot up. The Prices were too high for people to absorb so people stopped the turn around, then gas prices started to rise so even less people could buy and there you have it, a surplus arose. It's not exactly rocket science, they changed the pricing and the demand curve shifted. The industry shot itself in the foot and now they want me to fix it. Uh-uh, fix it with price reductions, no bonus' and eliminate raises yourselves and leave me alone.

Oh, and I think all the banks should give me back my tax money too, I wasn't in favor of that either.

 

[corndog]

If any one the Big 3 american auto companies goes under the rest of the auto companies including, US Honda and US Toyota will most likey follow.

Agreed. I predict by this time next year, if no bailout is offered, no one, anywhere, will be driving cars.

 

[The Mayor]

Is the autoworker any less important then the person who got took by the fly by night companies that messed up their morgages?

You don't seem to want to answer that question! YOU are the one that said it was alright by you to save if only ONE of the foreclosers because of the fly by night operaters. BUT...you don't want to save MILLIONS of JOBS and HOMES for the autoworkers, suppliers, etc.

So if my company goes bankrupt and I lose my job then it doesn't count...what about the 12,000 AT&T employees that are getting laid off...should we bail out AT&T also

 

[The Mayor]

Let me refresh your memory.

1. You said the $25 billion has been handed out. Wrong! No truth to that at all. Not even close to being accurate. You have now said it two different times in this thread that it has been handed out. IT HASN'T.

2. You said that the Big 3 were "MORONS" for coming out with gas guzzlers. What?? Do you have a clue how many trucks and SUV's they sell? Those are their top sellers. You want them to stop something that is a profitable product when gas prices are low? Do you know what Ford had to do when gas started going down in October? They had to hire back 1000 workers for their truck plant because the DEMAND for trucks INCREASED.

3. See the writing on the wall?? Of course Toyota and Honda made small cars. They couldn't compete with our trucks and SUV's. It has taken Toyota forever to come up with a truck that is even close to the quality of an American made truck. It wasn't writing on the wall. They knew they couldn't compete with our trucks and suv's. They knew they could produce cars that cost them less money to make compared to our trucks. Plain common sense.

4. You also make it sound like the Big 3 has never made a small vehicle in their lives. Do you have a clue what products are on the market and the quality of those vehicles? Apparently not. Do you have a clue what they have done overseas? They do tremendously well because the governments overseas allow clean diesel. We could have a 67mpg car on our roadways tomorrow if our government would allow the use of a product that runs 50% of European cars. Don't tell me they can't make fuel efficient vehicles.

5. Best of all, you ask why the CEO's don't give back their salaries. You supported the banking bailout. Can you direct me to the list of CEO's that gave up their salary? I'd love to see the list. Mullaly, Waggoner and Nardelli have all agreed to go to a $1 per year salary. Too little, too late? Maybe but at least they are doing it. Again, I ask you if ANY of the CEO's in this banking bailout that YOU supported, agreed to do that? Bill Ford Jr. hasn't taken a salary in years. Granted, his stock options are huge but since stock is in the toilet right now, it doesn't matter. The top 5 executives with Ford have given up their bonuses repeatedly starting in 2002. Many others have been rewarded with millions but at least SOME have made attempts to help the company. Not perfect but I will ask AGAIN what the banking CEO's did with their salary?

1. I stand corrected...the money has been appropriated not handed out.

2. How are those SUV's and trucks selling now?

3. Honda and Toyota didn't have to compete in the truck or SUV business...they are kicking the big 3's rear ends in TOTAL car sales...go to any Honda dealership and their slaesmen are balls to the walls while the Big 3 dealerships are closing down left and right.

4. What car has the Big 3 promoted that was gas efficient ...only recently when the Big 3 morons embarassed themselves by taking private jets to DC the first time...then last week they "drove" in their fuel efficient model...what a joke

 

[S. C.]

So if my company goes bankrupt and I lose my job then it doesn't count...what about the 12,000 AT&T employees that are getting laid off...should we bail out AT&T also

That does not answer the question I asked you!


OH wait ....I get it.... You are a mayor, a politician. They always side step questions they don't like.

 

[The Mayor]

That does not answer the question I asked you! Not even close.


OH wait ....I get it.... You are a mayor, a politician. They always side step questions they don't like.

What question ...or are the facts baffling you.

 

[LisaR]

1. I stand corrected...the money has been appropriated not handed out.

2. How are those SUV's and trucks selling now?

3. Honda and Toyota didn't have to compete in the truck or SUV business...they are kicking the big 3's rear ends in TOTAL car sales...go to any Honda dealership and their slaesmen are balls to the walls while the Big 3 dealerships are closing down left and right.

4. What car has the Big 3 promoted that was gas efficient ...only recently when the Big 3 morons embarassed themselves by taking private jets to DC the first time...then last week they "drove" in their fuel efficient model...what a joke

I'll come back when you have intelligent information and facts. Guess I won't be back because I haven't seen that in anything you have posted on this topic. So long.

 

[minnie61650]

NO....NO...NO...not unless the government is going to bail out every poorly run company that goes bankrupt...I wouldn't be for any bailouts except for the fact that bailing out the banks may, and I said may, help save homeowners from foreclosure.

GM and the other BIG 3 are in trouble because they cannot get loans for their customers who want to buy new cars.....Not because the companies were poorly run.

 

[minnie61650]

.....than some friggin car company that paid their CEO $22 MILION dollars a year to lead them into the toilet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI

The CEO's at Ford Chrysler & GM will be paid a $1 salaries in 2009 if they get a bridge loan.

GM ...Shared sacrifice, Reduced workforce, Slashed brands,

Shared sacrifice
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner and the company's board members will take $1 salaries in 2009. Wagoner made $2.2 million in 2007.

Other cuts: Henderson 30%; executive vice presidents and the vice chairman 20%; no executive bonuses through 2009.

Reduced workforce

GM's current U.S. salaried and hourly headcount is about 96,000. By 2012, the automaker expects to have between 65,000 and 75,000 people.

Henderson said GM is working with the UAW to be fully competitive with Toyota on labor by 2012.

GM will accomplish that in part, he said, by increasing the percentage of workers with lesser pay and benefits.

UAW leaders are to hear proposed concessions today.

Slashed brands

GM said it will focus on so-called core brands of Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC. Hummer is for sale, Saab will be, and Pontiac would be a niche brand. Saturn may be sold or closed.

Henderson said GM will work with creditors to cut debt to $30 billion from $65.6 billion but will honor warranties and debts to suppliers. The company proposes to begin paying back its government debt no later than 2012.

Link:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081203/BUSINESS01/812030381/1014