Should churches change security in wake of recent events?

[ronandannette]

And I didnt have those fears either until I was in the middle of an airport shooting with my loved ones and we ran for our lives. Unfortunately it is more likely in the U.S than it is at home whether that is perceived as offensive or not. And I'm not going to pretend it isn't because it's might offend.

That must have been terrifying. Random violence of any kind is exponentially more likely to occur in the US than here. It's not wrong to be wary of it. But smugness isn't really helpful either. The most notorious gun crimes in our nation's history (Ecole Polytechnique in Quebec, the Mountie Massacre in Alberta and the 2014 incident in New Brunswick) were all committed with legal guns. These are crimes of intent - the perps will find a way when motivated. Nobody, including the American DIS'ers has an easy answer

 

[bcla]

I do agree with that. I was also speaking, in relation to my where you live in the U.S. comment, in regards to the political make up, to an extent the history of that area, the citizens' views, etc. not just incidents of crime because all those things can impact when speaking about gun issues. It's why the us vs them...doesn't work towards all. There are 50 states in the U.S. all with different laws including different gun laws, different make ups of their citizens, different political environments, different issues, etc.

Heck my metro encompasses two different states and the laws aren't the exact same in each state, each state is also of a different overall political make up and each state also has its own issues they have.

Sure. It's been pretty well established that rural areas have lower violent crime rates, and obvious the lower potential to come across others has something to do with it. Urban crime rates tend to be pretty stable across different states in the US. It's very hard to correlate crime rates with specific laws. I could get more specific, but that might venture into a political discussion.

 

[AustinMommyofThree]

I'm not saying violence is exclusive to the rough neighborhoods. Just not to the scale those listed incidents seem to make you believe, especially when compared with the huge total population of our country.

And sure other countries have troubled areas. But I'd sure like to see that all quantified. I don't think you can make blanket statements without correcting for that factor. Across the board.

Then quantify it to test your hypothesis, but make sure you adjust the variables. If you remove the 25 most violent areas in this nation (neighborhoods, communities, cities, however you want to define it), you need to remove the same from every other nation or the data isn't valid. I would be very surprised if the relative rankings changed significantly, and they might even get worse for the United States. For example, Venezuela is statistically much less safe than the USA per capita, but the vast majority of their murders take place in a small section of Caracas. I'm definitely not a statistician, but if we remove Detroit's murders and they remove Caracas', I suspect we'd move closer together in the rankings, not farther apart.

 

[mom2rtk]

Then quantify it to test your hypothesis, but make sure you adjust the variables. If you remove the 25 most violent areas in this nation (neighborhoods, communities, cities, however you want to define it), you need to remove the same from every other nation or the data isn't valid. I would be very surprised if the relative rankings changed significantly, and they might even get worse for the United States. For example, Venezuela is statistically much less safe than the USA per capita, but the vast majority of their murders take place in a small section of Caracas. I'm definitely not a statistician, but if we remove Detroit's murders and they remove Caracas', I suspect we'd move closer together in the rankings, not farther apart.

Feel free to do just that and prove your suspicions.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But let's look at car accidents the same way.

Cars aren't really the problem, it's the drivers that are the problem.

But yet we still do things - we try to make cars safer, if people are convicted of drunk driving we take away their driver's license. And yes, some people drive without a license -but that doesn't mean we quit trying to stop them.


Guns are ONE part of the bigger problem, and they should be looked at just like every other part of the problem to see what we could do to help.

On the car thing I did recently read though that for some aspects they've actually created a distracted driving situation in order to solve a distracted driving situation lol.
"A new study by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety, which found that the information and entertainment systems in many new cars can distract drivers for as long as 40-plus seconds at a time. According to AAA, removing your eyes from the road for only two seconds doubles the risk of an accident. The study, conducted for AAA by researchers from the University of Utah, took both voice-based and touch screen features into account, gauging the visual and cognitive demands required to operate infotainment systems in 30 new 2017 vehicles." So in essence too much car technology is starting to have the an unattended affect.

As far as revoking or suspending one's license. Unfortunately you need to have tough consequences in order for that to be of real worth if you're attempting to prevent those with revoked or suspended licenses from actually driving. Repeat offenders will continue to be repeat offenders unless you have a system to curtail the repeat factor.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Sure. It's been pretty well established that rural areas have lower violent crime rates, and obvious the lower potential to come across others has something to do with it. Urban crime rates tend to be pretty stable across different states in the US. It's very hard to correlate crime rates with specific laws. I could get more specific, but that might venture into a political discussion.

I wasn't talking actually about rural areas so I'm confused what you mean by your comment.

 

[penn19]

Another American mass shooting. Another denial that you need gun control. Rinse. Repeat.

Sadly you’re right. I don’t own guns, not my thing. And normally I’m of the opinion, you do you. But that is just out of control. Has been out of control. And I will say, it’s not just guns. It’s also the mindset. And I don’t know how to change that.

 

[wgeo]

On the car thing I did recently read though that for some aspects they've actually created a distracted driving situation in order to solve a distracted driving situation lol.
"A new study by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety, which found that the information and entertainment systems in many new cars can distract drivers for as long as 40-plus seconds at a time. According to AAA, removing your eyes from the road for only two seconds doubles the risk of an accident. The study, conducted for AAA by researchers from the University of Utah, took both voice-based and touch screen features into account, gauging the visual and cognitive demands required to operate infotainment systems in 30 new 2017 vehicles." So in essence too much car technology is starting to have the an unattended affect.

As far as revoking or suspending one's license. Unfortunately you need to have tough consequences in order for that to be of real worth if you're attempting to prevent those with revoked or suspended licenses from actually driving. Repeat offenders will continue to be repeat offenders unless you have a system to curtail the repeat factor.

I agree with the distracted driving thing completely - but I suppose that's off topic.

Yes, the repeat offenders is a real problem, which is why I think it really correlates to the arguments about gun control. We don't throw our hands up and say, well there's nothing to be done about repeat offenders, after all it's their right to drink and it wouldn't work to make them stop anyways. No, we try to find ways to get them to stop being repeat offenders, both through treatment programs that addresses their problem, and through penalities like taking away their license etc. Some places do a better job than others, but pretty much everywhere is trying. Yet with gun control, we refuse to even try because "it's their right to own a gun and it wouldn't work anyways".

 

[mnrose]

Shooter is Devon Patrick Kelly, age 26. Church members say he was an ex marine known to the congregation and a recent convert to Islam. A "manifesto" he wrote is now appearing in social media.

Where did you get this "news?" I don't see it on any reputable news sources at the moment. Indeed, I see that he may have been a bible teacher. Just curious where this comes from. I'm skeptical of any "news" that comes without supporting references, as this one does.

 

[AustinMommyofThree]

Feel free to do just that and prove your suspicions.

You made the assertion with its thinly veiled innuendo, so I will point out what I see as the statistical errors in your theory but I feel no need to spend my time disproving it. I suspect it wouldn't matter either way so I'll leave it and this conversation at that.

 

[bcla]

I wasn't talking actually about rural areas so I'm confused what you mean by your comment.

Population density happens to be an important consideration when it comes to violent crime. A lot if crime statistics don't necessarily account for that when they go by state. There are some extremely rural states that don't have low violent crime rates because they have urban crime centered around their large cities.

However, this sort of large scale shooting isn't a very different type of crime compared to robbery deaths or gang violence.

 

[EveDallas]

That must have been terrifying. Random violence of any kind is exponentially more likely to occur in the US than here. It's not wrong to be wary of it. But smugness isn't really helpful either. The most notorious gun crimes in our nation's history (Ecole Polytechnique in Quebec, the Mountie Massacre in Alberta and the 2014 incident in New Brunswick) were all committed with legal guns. These are crimes of intent - the perps will find a way when motivated. Nobody, including the American DIS'ers has an easy answer

Exactly. Many of us hate the fact that our government seems to turn a blind eye to gun violence. But having a bunch of non-Americans smugly stating that this country is unsafe when we are reeling from a tragedy DOES NOT HELP.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just to address the "No one's doing anything" comments.

On Friday, MA became the first state since the Las Vegas shootings to ban Bump Stocks. (They were already banned in CA.)

http://www.wbur.org/news/2017/11/03/gun-rights-group-veto-bump-stock-ban

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Population density happens to be an important consideration when it comes to violent crime. A lot if crime statistics don't necessarily account for that when they go by state. There are some extremely rural states that don't have low violent crime rates because they have urban crime centered around their large cities.

However, this sort of large scale shooting isn't a very different type of crime compared to robbery deaths or gang violence.

Ah yeah no I wasn't really talking about that stuff. My comment wasn't a rural vs city thing. I wasn't even talking about crime statistics nor violent crime rates.

I was simply saying that those who say "here it's easy peasy you just do this" well it's a lot more complicated than that with 50 states in the U.S. all with different laws including different gun laws, different make ups of their citizens, different political environments, different issues, etc.

 

[mom2rtk]

You made the assertion with its thinly veiled innuendo, so I will point out what I see as the statistical errors in your theory but I feel no need to spend my time disproving it. I suspect it wouldn't matter either way so I'll leave it and this conversation at that.

"Veiled innuendo" and "statistical errors"? I said I wondered about something. No innuendo. No statistics:

I wonder what the rate would be if corrected for people who don't frequent gang infested neighborhoods.

 

[ml sumner]

Already there.

Yep, our church has a security team and it makes me feel better that we do.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Exactly. Many of us hate the fact that our government seems to turn a blind eye to gun violence. But having a bunch of non-Americans smugly stating that this country is unsafe when we are reeling from a tragedy DOES NOT HELP.

I'm not sure how we can be "reeling" from something that happens every few days. Anyone reeling or shocked at this has not been paying attention. I don't think any one here is being smug, American or not. Just factual and realistic.

 

[EveDallas]

I'm not sure how we can be "reeling" from something that happens every few days. Anyone reeling or shocked at this has not been paying attention. I don't think any one here is being smug, American or not. Just factual and realistic.

If you just accept this and it doesn't hurt you, I feel sorry for you as a person.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

If you just accept this and it doesn't hurt you, I feel sorry for you as a person.

Nothing I can do is going to change this situation. I vote ... It's not going to help. The best I can come up with is to take my tourist dollars elsewhere. It's not that I don't care - I care very much. But at some point it's a question of self preservation, and what's best for me is to tune it out, accept that this is how it is, and not worry too much about it.

 

[Planogirl]

I see plenty of commentary by Americans when something like this happens in other nations. This is a worldwide problem even if it does feel like it happens way more often in the U.S. There are many factors to consider and personally I want to hear all opinions.

My heart goes out to this little community. How awful for them.