Should a fence be built along the Mexican border?

[VickiVM]

However, Mexico isn't exactly the most oppressed or impoverished nations in the world...

Etc.



Rich::

Poverty is a form of oppression:

This is a family's home in Mexico. This kind of poverty is widespread and not uncommon.

This is the "kitchen" of that home. The rocks serve as the stove.

These 11 million people that you are all so pissed off at and loathe are real people just trying to better their lives. Yes, 500,000 protested and may have given you the impression that they are ungrateful, but millions did not protest and you ought not to paint them all with the same brush.

I don't think giving these people the opportunity to 1)Work legally, 2)Pay a fine, 3)Learn English and 4)Get in the 'back of the line' in order to earn legal status (after 6 years) is going to break our backs.

 

[Charade]

I don't think giving these people the opportunity to 1)Work legally, 2)Pay a fine, 3)Learn English and 4)Get in the 'back of the line' in order to earn legal status (after 6 years) is going to break our backs.

Ok fine.

Two questions.

1)If there are approx. 11 million people ILLEGALLY (I can't stress that enough because you seem to be ignoring it) in this country and say 1/2 come "out of the shadows" and attempt to follow this new law. What do you do with the other 1/2 that didn't? What do you do to the people who fail the requirements of the new law?

2)What happens to prevent the next wave of 11 million people? Or should we just abolish the border patrol.

 

[Charade]

Poverty is a form of oppression:

You can blame the Mexican goverment for that.

 

[lyeag]

Granted, those are touching pictures, but not everyone who comes up to the US comes from that situation.

 

[VickiVM]

Ok fine.

Two questions.

1)If there are approx. 11 million people ILLEGALLY (I can't stress that enough because you seem to be ignoring it) in this country and say 1/2 come "out of the shadows" and attempt to follow this new law. What do you do with the other 1/2 that didn't? What do you do to the people who fail the requirements of the new law?

2)What happens to prevent the next wave of 11 million people? Or should we just abolish the border patrol.

What gives you the impression that only 1/2 would apply for legal status. Are you presuming that all want to continue breaking the law? And if so, how did you come to that conclusion (without generalizing)?

I never stated I wanted to continue allowing people through our borders illegally. That puts us all at risk. But a wall isn't the answer either.

 

[VickiVM]

You can blame the Mexican goverment for that.

Absolutely! I agree. But that isn't the fault of the immigrant, as much as you want to make it. And no we aren't the world's keeper, (although we act like it), but pointing fingers will not solve the issue.

 

[VickiVM]

Granted, those are touching pictures, but not everyone who comes up to the US comes from that situation.

The majority do. The photos are not just a snapshot of a small segment of people - it's representative of a very large population.

 

[Charade]

What gives you the impression that only 1/2 would apply for legal status. Are you presuming that all want to continue breaking the law? And if so, how did you come to that conclusion (without generalizing)?

I'm not generalizing. All of the estimated 11 million are here illegally.

In fact, it's you that are generalizing that all those 11 million are upstanding law abiding (non) citizens and they will come out of the shadows. You're also assuming that all of them will make it through the requirements of the law. We know that both assumptions are false.

I would think that the criminals that are part of that 11 million will want to remain in the shadows. Don't you?

So back to my original questions. What do you do with the portion that don't come forward and/ or don't meet the requirements of the new law?

And what do you do to prevent the next wave of 11 million from illegally crossing the border?

 

[VickiVM]

I'm not generalizing. All of the estimated 11 million are here illegally.

In fact, it's you that are generalizing that all those 11 million are upstanding law abiding (non) citizens and they will come out of the shadows. You're also assuming that all of them will make it through the requirements of the law. We know that both assumptions are false.

I would think that the criminals that are part of that 11 million will want to remain in the shadows. Don't you?

So back to my original questions. What do you do with the portion that don't come forward and/ or don't meet the requirements of the new law?

And what do you do to prevent the next wave of 11 million from illegally crossing the border?

I'm sorry - I think we're misunderstanding each other - I never claimed that all were 'upstanding law abiding'. But I don't understand how you assume that they are not willing to come forward to earn their place in line legally, or that only 1/2 will. There are no numbers or evidence to support that.

There is no overnight cure - the problem didn't happen overnight. Many measures will have to be in place to not only stem the flow through the borders but also make certain those who have been working and raising families go through the process of legitimizing their status.

When real, enforceable (and I mean that in a logistical way, because we don't have the means at the moment to find and deport 11 million people) measurements are in place to remove those who do not care to become legitimate, then I'm all for deportation. I never said I was against deportation. I am supportive of manageable and humane immigration reform.

 

[lyeag]

The majority do. The photos are not just a snapshot of a small segment of people - it's representative of a very large population.

There are also quite a few who don't. There are plenty who come to the US legally and illegally who come here for reasons other than escaping extreme poverty. I grew up in an area with a fairly large hispanic population. Ever heard of Hero Street USA? http://www.getnet.com/~1stbooks/hero.htm I have a healthy respect for hispanic people. A lot of my friends happen to be Mexican. My best friend married a Mexican. I was in their wedding and they both were in mine. I have attended quinces and church fiestas and have known many Mexicans. I have seen the whole spectrum- the good and the bad. I could go into specifics, but they are just my personal experiences with legals, naturalized citizens and illegals. We have a huge problem here and the wall is one part of the solution.

 

[VickiVM]

We have a huge problem here and the wall is one part of the solution.

Agreed on the problem - not on the wall. And that's ok. But I do have a favor to ask. Please do not reduce me to a 'legal'. I was fortunate enough to be born in the US and am an American with a Hispanic heritage. We wouldn't call German Americans 'legal', nor Italian Americans. Just be sensitive, is all I ask, that we look at the issue from the perspective of the futures of real people with hopes and dreams - not much different than you and I have.

 

[Charade]

I'm sorry - I think we're misunderstanding each other - I never claimed that all were 'upstanding law abiding'. But I don't understand how you assume that they are not willing to come forward to earn their place in line legally, or that only 1/2 will. There are no numbers or evidence to support that.

There is no overnight cure - the problem didn't happen overnight. Many measures will have to be in place to not only stem the flow through the borders but also make certain those who have been working and raising families go through the process of legitimizing their status.

When real, enforceable (and I mean that in a logistical way, because we don't have the means at the moment to find and deport 11 million people) measurements are in place to remove those who do not care to become legitimate, then I'm all for deportation. I never said I was against deportation. I am supportive of manageable and humane immigration reform.

On one hand you don't understand how I can come up with 1/2. It was a guess. On the other hand, you say there are no numbers or evidence to support that. I'm making a guess that not all (perhaps 1/2 is a grossly inaccurate number) will come forward. You appear to be assuming that all will. I'm willing to bet that not all will. I think we agree that those that do not come forward or meet the other requirements of the law after they come forward should be dealt with. I say deport them. The problem is, we don't know who or where they are.

But with this law we've given those who wish to break OUR law and come in illegally another reason to come in illegally. Instead of going through the normal (which I admit it painfully inadequate) process, they'll just sneak across and then "turn themselves in" with better deal than those who go through the legal process.


This is very similar to those gun "amnesty" programs where you turn in guns for a dollar, "no questions asked". Sure it takes some guns off the street but the majority of people who still keep their are the criminals. They're not interested in amnesty.

 

[dbarker]

A fence in the middle of a river????

A fence won't even slow them down. They are desperate to come to the USA. They will do (and are doing) anything to get across. Including, swimming across that same river. Climbing that fence would be easy.

What bothers me the most is some of the inhumane ways they are being brought into the USA. No one should have to go through that.

 

[Tiziminchac]

I think they should build a wall. But not on the border with Mexico. I think we need one on the border with Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. That border isn't as long as our national border so it would be cheaper. And I'm not talking about the Berlin Wall type. I want the Great Wall of China! Something thirty or forty feet high. Maybe we can embed some broken bottles in the concrete on top, just in case. That way we (us Floridians) can keep out the illegals, snowbirds and yankees all at once.

 

[VickiVM]

You appear to be assuming that all will. I'm willing to bet that not all will. I think we agree that those that do not come forward or meet the other requirements of the law after they come forward should be dealt with. I say deport them. The problem is, we don't know who or where they are.

Oh, I know not all!! I'm sure a significant amount will not come forward. But reform also has to equip empoyers with the means to better discern fake documents from real, and then hold them accountable with more serious consequences. Will we rid America of every single illegal immigrant even after they've been given opportunity to come clean and earn their right to be here? Of course not - no more than we can rid our country of rapists, murderers, and the like. And like I have mentioned before - we need to better protect our borders. I'm not denying that border control is a huge part of stemming the influx.

 

[VickiVM]

A fence in the middle of a river????

A fence won't even slow them down. They are desperate to come to the USA. They will do (and are doing) anything to get across. Including, swimming across that same river. Climbing that fence would be easy.

What bothers me the most is some of the inhumane ways they are being brought into the USA. No one should have to go through that.

The coyotes are a huge problem and I have seen on the news where some are being caught. But if we can iron out the immigration issues, then maybe they'll be put out of the transportation business.

 

[eclectics]

I think they should build a wall. But not on the border with Mexico. I think we need one on the border with Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. That border isn't as long as our national border so it would be cheaper. And I'm not talking about the Berlin Wall type. I want the Great Wall of China! Something thirty or forty feet high. Maybe we can embed some broken bottles in the concrete on top, just in case. That way we (us Floridians) can keep out the illegals, snowbirds and yankees all at once.

Illegals aside, take away tourism and all the revenue dollars those pesky Tourists, Yankees, and Snowbirds bring in and methinks Florida would be quite a different place.

 

[Planogirl]

I think they should build a wall. But not on the border with Mexico. I think we need one on the border with Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. That border isn't as long as our national border so it would be cheaper. And I'm not talking about the Berlin Wall type. I want the Great Wall of China! Something thirty or forty feet high. Maybe we can embed some broken bottles in the concrete on top, just in case. That way we (us Floridians) can keep out the illegals, snowbirds and yankees all at once.

Your economy would die and you would all be living in shacks on the beach. Not that that doesn't sound appealing.

 

[Tiziminchac]

Illegals aside, take away tourism and all the revenue dollars those pesky Tourists, Yankees, and Snowbirds bring in and methinks Florida would be quite a different place.

Yeah and it would be great!

 

[eclectics]

Yeah and it would be great!

Too bad it will never happen though. Who knows, maybe when I move down from New York, I'll end up next door to y'all. I'll be sure to put the Yankee game on full volume for ya.